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Live Sound - what dirty tricks do other engineers play?
Old 1st February 2007
  #151
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o---'s Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samc View Post
Talk about a subversion of logic and the principles of physics..........
Physics and electromagnetic fields are NOT the same. And every electrical current has an electromagnetic field. I think this topic is beyond the scope of what you're all even talking, excluding synthoid. hahaha - If anyone even challenges xmostynx or the OTHER argueing side, after what's been said by both sides, the loopiness will butt**** itself. :P
Old 1st February 2007
  #152
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waveterm's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xmostynx View Post
what i said :

Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

what he said:

garble garble garble garble garble garble garble



you guys are just ganging up on me now- we said the same damn thing- and people jumped me when i said reducing the gain is going to make the mic less sensative- blah blah blah- man o man.. i have never had this happen on GS before-

Patrick,

don´t quote me out off context.

Go back and re-read from your first post and then read my reply to that.

Don´t cut and paste from different posts and make me look like I said the same thing as you. Because I didn´t.

Later, I could analyze what you were experiencing and gave you an explanation of the phenomenon. However, this was not what you initially wrote. Nor was it what I initially disagreed with !

Ok ?



WT
Old 1st February 2007
  #153
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this is the part you disagreed with waveterm..


Quote:
Originally Posted by xmostynx View Post
know alot about how hard your pushing your pre's. That will make the world of difference in your monitors feeding back etc.

Don't push your mic pre's hard, we are using A&H GL 4000 consoles, and i keep my mic pre's around 1 o'clock ..and i don't send anything up to my monitors above 2 o clock without turning down my mic pre..

when you give a mic more gain the "balloon" around the mic gets bigger and its got alot more chances of feeding back, when you reduce it, that balloon of feedback is going to get smaller so you can push it a little harder in the monitors..
you said this

Quote:
Originally Posted by waveterm View Post
Huh ? This is not true.

If you, fo instance, lower the micgain by 6dB and turn up the sends 6 dB there is no difference in feedbacksensitivity.

Likewise, if you turn up the micgain 6 dB and lower all sends by 6dB, you have the same level.



WT

after 2 pages of discussion waveterm...you went on to say this

Quote:
Originally Posted by waveterm View Post
One thing you must remember is that by lowering the gain on the micpreamp, you´ll lower it for all sends/monitorsystems.

Lets say that you have a vocalmic that you send to all monitorsystems. By lowering the micgain by 6db you will probably be able to raise the primary send by 8 or 9db !

This is because you have lowered the total volume on stage by 6db but also made that mic even less sensitive to feedback.

Due to different timearrivals and phaseissues you´ll be able to raise the mic in its monitor more than 6db.

I´m having a hard time describing this due to english not being my primary language.

Hth

WT

now waveterm...i said the same damn thing in my FIRST post on this thread...what are you putting in your pipe man?...send it over here dude!

i even put it in bold letters so you can see..and this chaos can stop.


our first disagreement was if you lower a mic 6 dB and raise it in the monitor 6dB its equal- thats very true!

but if you lower a mic thats just about to feed back 6dB you CAN get 6dB PLUS a few more dB out of the MONITOR because like you said:

Quote:
Originally Posted by waveterm View Post

Due to different timearrivals and phase issues you´ll be able to raise the mic in its monitor more than 6db.



WT
now man..let this stop.please point is proven CLEAR AS DAY and NIGHT

your first disagreement you said-

there is no difference in feedback sensitivity- then you went on to say that since you've lowered the mic gain 6dB its less sensitive to feedback..
c'mon man..what else do i need to say?! there is no pulling nothing out of context-that is what you wrote-and thats exactly what i FIRST POSTED.

to clear it up even more- i used the term "balloon" to refer to an imaginary field around the microphone okay? there is no balloon or majic balloon...its an imaginary field. A term i used to describe the microphones ability to pick up signal around it, in which that signal will be amplified by the gain pot on the console...
Old 1st February 2007
  #154
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Jim Kerr's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by o--- View Post
Physics and electromagnetic fields are NOT the same. And every electrical current has an electromagnetic field. I think this topic is beyond the scope of what you're all even talking, excluding synthoid. hahaha - If anyone even challenges xmostynx or the OTHER argueing side, after what's been said by both sides, the loopiness will butt**** itself. :P


True that!

I am curious though, I understand that x db will = x db but xmostynx has a valid point about increasing mic gain as opposed to output level. If you CRANKED your gain up to Beatles Revolution extremes you know that that mic would feed back at a MUCH lower db level, or is there a phenominom that is simple and basic. Could it be that the more mic gain of certain harmonics are increased (in dbs obviously) ? So You have a very high mic gain and a low output it may feed back and not be percieved as loud yet the "boosted preamped" harmonics are in fact loud enough to make it feedback?? yet the overall is real low? I'm thinking distortion!!Anyone following?

Think A Strat through a FuzzFace on 10 through a JCM800 with its pre on 10 and its output on 1.1/2! Feedback city!

Now you go direct into the JCM800, bring your pre down to 5 even and crank that sucka (Output ) up to 7 you'll be blasting with a MUCH higher SPL no doubt yet you know you would have to try real hard to get your ax to actually feed back!!!

Know what I mean?
Gain Structure.
Old 1st February 2007
  #155
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analogtodd's Avatar
 

I really hope an A&H 4k pre is not exhibiting the same behavior as a JCM800....

You've got one farked up console
Old 1st February 2007
  #156
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rikvee's Avatar
 

How to set PA gainstructure, no worries!

Funny thread this, hope we've got some readers left...

Here's some tried and proven advice form this old road dog:

- the only gain I set by the meters is vocal gain, after which
I make sure that it's loud enough in the room by adding gain
at a later stage (graphic/compressor/processor/crossover)

- when I the set levels for instruments, I do that with the
gain trim while each fader is set at unity (or "0"), this way my whole
mix appears at the trimpots, much simpler to remember.

- loud instruments may not make their channel meter jump up to "0",
but that is no problem at all, if you are not driving a recording input.

- when running monitors from the house I use Y-splits (making two
channels out of one mic), because different voices can require different
EQ in the front, while it's nice if the monitors can stay unchanged.

Hey Matt, good luck! As a last bit of advice, when being thrown in cold without a soundcheck, copy the vocal gain from the previous user and work on the balance before you work on the tones, that way it will come together faster.

Cheers from Fremantle,

Rik V. the Fly by Night Soundman.
Old 1st February 2007
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monkeyt View Post
I really hope an A&H 4k pre is not exhibiting the same behavior as a JCM800....

You've got one farked up console
Ha ha, right, No I'm gonna stay out of this soon. I'm just saying from diping into this thread from my understanding is the JCM concept is what xsyntx dude is saying, only in an extEEm way... ;^)

I was running Patti Smiths monitors and I had aux send knob matks embeded in my hand, thats how crazy THAT was. She reminded me of what its all about though.

Being a Monitor engineer basically can suck the most, it can also be very rewarding.

Everyday its usually "can we get this, can we get that, can I have a bit of everything" and thats all fine, I really take pride in being awsome at the job I'm doing. So I have learned how to get a monitor rig up really freaking LOUD, that just happens with Rock'n'Roll. Now learning to do that with respect tp the FOH or the room and freq. that cut through is a big key. With the Patti Smith shows it really came around. She wanted barely anything including her Vocals in her wedges. Now mind you the rest of the band's wedges were WRUNG out! They were plentyful. Now what ended up happining is she as an artist (and you could sense this in a big way) wanted to hear the room! When she sang and let me tell you this paticular run she SANG like I've never heard her before. I felt privilaged to be there. So now there was this big time dynamic which is very lost in todays rock. The band comes in to sing there back ups, drums come in..etc, and they are WAY loud, so much that the singers BACK OFF the mics and the drummer THINKS!!. Nobody was gonna tell Patti to sing louder. The performance was really great. Its great to see a band play with dynamics. In that situation the monitors were really crucial tools of reinforcement of the whole thing. I really liked that. Plus when she and the band got louder I KNEW she wanted more, I bascally kept her vocal level the same in respect to the music at that point. When she was quiet she wanted LESS so she could hear the room. In your average situation its kind of opposite. Soft singer, turn it up. Loud singer, turn it down. The whole thing was cool.
Well Sorry for taking this thread for drive. I just don't want to start a Live Monitors thread.

Oh yeah and Matt from what you said in tearms of running a live rig you really did nail it. There might some graphs (should be) in front of the monitor amps and that will help doing monitors from FOH.
Old 1st February 2007
  #158
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Ravian's Avatar
 

Cool

man, this is just crazy

i think xmostynx ment 2 say the same thing as waveterm.
but he dident now how 2 explain him self.

but the baloon thing is false.

because when you hookup a keyboard 2 a mixing desk(DI) and you lower the pre
you lower ALL the send's 2.
when you raise the pre up again then ALL the send's will go up also in level.

Gain 0 -> /Send 0 unity=0 (position of the Send knob) = equal
Gain +6 -> /Send +6 unity=0(position of the Send knob) = More Mon.Gain
Gain -3 -> /Send -3 unity=0(position of the Send knob) =Less Mon.Gain
Gain -3 -> /Send -3 +3 (position of the Send knob) = equal
Old 1st February 2007
  #159
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xmostynx's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravian View Post
man, this is just crazy

i think xmostynx ment 2 say the same thing as waveterm.
but he dident now how 2 explain him self.

but the baloon thing is false.

because when you hookup a keyboard 2 a mixing desk(DI) and you lower the pre
you lower ALL the send's 2.
when you raise the pre up again then ALL the send's will go up also in level.

Gain 0 -> /Send 0 unity=0 (position of the Send knob) = equal
Gain +6 -> /Send +6 unity=0(position of the Send knob) = More Mon.Gain
Gain -3 -> /Send -3 unity=0(position of the Send knob) =Less Mon.Gain
Gain -3 -> /Send -3 +3 (position of the Send knob) = equal

sir a keyboard send is a whole lot different than a microphone...and a speaker cabinet

we did say the same thing- only i got nailed on it because i'm 21-lame
Old 1st February 2007
  #160
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Windtaken's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xmostynx View Post
sir a keyboard send is a whole lot different than a microphone...and a speaker cabinet

we did say the same thing- only i got nailed on it because i'm 21-lame
same conclusion but different premise
Old 1st February 2007
  #161
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Harley-OIART's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by xmostynx View Post
sir a keyboard send is a whole lot different than a microphone...and a speaker cabinet

we did say the same thing- only i got nailed on it because i'm 21-lame
Age has nothing to do with it. As flectcher would say, a moronic statement is a moronic statement, regardless of wether or not the person making it is a moron.

Don't get all offended by that, just remember that saying something wrong has nothing to do with age or experience.

Anyways I'm out of this thread... I tried. But thanks to those who posted good helpful points.
Old 1st February 2007
  #162
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xmostynx's Avatar
 

Old 1st February 2007
  #163
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Harley-OIART's Avatar
 

Whatever...
Old 1st February 2007
  #164
Gear Head
 

Aren't we talking about Gain and volume?

Isn't Gain Exponential and volume (I.E. the fader or knob) usually attenuation and not exponential?

I.E. 6*2=12, but 6*3=18 (Gain)
6+6=12, but 6+7=13 (volume)

???
Old 1st February 2007
  #165
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T_R_S's Avatar
The worst trick we (the opening act) showed up an hour before the headliners we can from the same city. The headliners took 7 hours to sound check even sound checking in the middle of supper so we zero time to sound check. tutt
Old 1st February 2007
  #166
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by T_R_S View Post
The worst trick we (the opening act) showed up an hour before the headliners we can from the same city. The headliners took 7 hours to sound check even sound checking in the middle of supper so we zero time to sound check. tutt
Squeezing the soundcheck is an old "trick", but I have seen times where the main band soundcheck went on too long purely because the main band engineer was incompetent. In fairness I've only ever had this happen too me once, it took their engineer 30 mins to get a BD sound and then it was ordinary. My whole outfit linechecked and soundchecked in less than 10 mins, sounded a whole lot better than the main act, but in fairness I had better musicians to work with.

Regards


Roland
Old 1st February 2007
  #167
6293
Guest
thanks to those who posted helpfully. rikvee and harley oiart esp.
james
Old 1st February 2007
  #168
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bigalw1414's Avatar
 

Ok, I think I see what Patrick is experiencing. If I understand correctly, then he is not wrong, but he is merely misstating what is actually going on.

For argument's sake, let's assume that there is no distortion at any point in the signal chain.

Lets say there is a solo vocalist - no other instruments or inputs of any kind. There is one monitor wedge being fed by the aux send of the vocal channel. If you lower the input gain trim of the vocal channel by 6db, and then raise the aux send by 6db, you will have the exact same signal level.

-6db (input gain) leads to > -6db (aux send)
-6db (aux send) +6db (aux send) = no difference

Now, let's say there are two monitor mixes with the vocal being sent equally to both mixes. If you lower the input gain trim on the vocal channel by 6db, you are also lowering the signal sent to EACH monitor channel. If you then turn up the aux send on the vocal channel by 6db, you will have less overall level.

-6db (input gain) leads to > -6db (aux send 1) AND -6db (aux send 2)
-6db (aux send 1) AND -6db (aux send 2) +6db (aux send 1) = -6db change

This is my only conceivable way of defending Patrick's arguments. I can see how lowering the gain trim by 6db would allow him to raise the aux send by more than 6db ONLY if the channel was also being fed to other aux sends which were not also being raised by 6db.
Old 1st February 2007
  #169
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yes, but that´s not what he was saying.....he was always talking about one mic in one monitor and he keeps using the balloon explanaition, which is rubbish.....
Old 1st February 2007
  #170
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Ravian's Avatar
 

Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by bigalw1414 View Post
Ok, I think I see what Patrick is experiencing. If I understand correctly, then he is not wrong, but he is merely misstating what is actually going on.

For argument's sake, let's assume that there is no distortion at any point in the signal chain.

Lets say there is a solo vocalist - no other instruments or inputs of any kind. There is one monitor wedge being fed by the aux send of the vocal channel. If you lower the input gain trim of the vocal channel by 6db, and then raise the aux send by 6db, you will have the exact same signal level.

-6db (input gain) leads to > -6db (aux send)
-6db (aux send) +6db (aux send) = no difference

Now, let's say there are two monitor mixes with the vocal being sent equally to both mixes. If you lower the input gain trim on the vocal channel by 6db, you are also lowering the signal sent to EACH monitor channel. If you then turn up the aux send on the vocal channel by 6db, you will have less overall level.

-6db (input gain) leads to > -6db (aux send 1) AND -6db (aux send 2)
-6db (aux send 1) AND -6db (aux send 2) +6db (aux send 1) = -6db change

This is my only conceivable way of defending Patrick's arguments. I can see how lowering the gain trim by 6db would allow him to raise the aux send by more than 6db ONLY if the channel was also being fed to other aux sends which were not also being raised by 6db.
thats what i said.
Old 1st February 2007
  #171
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waveterm's Avatar
 

Sigh.......whatever. I´m out ! ( at least for the time being.....)

WT
Old 1st February 2007
  #172
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xmostynx's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ravian View Post
thats what i said.
you where talking about a keyboard yes?
i have-never been able to hear feedback come from a keyboard-unless it was a leslie and it had mics on it...


as far as the balloon theory- its just a DISCRIPTION- its an adjective to describe how much of the sound around the mic you are amplifying- your just not grasping what i'm saying- thats all-

think about it like the one dude said with the strat-

your going to be able to turn up your guitar alot louder if you have your pre amp set lower- and your stomp boxes set lower-

if you crank all your volume from your first gain stages- pre amps/boxes/ your guitar will have less overall volume before it feeds back-

just try it- man i was just a suggestion- and its turning into all out war!
Old 1st February 2007
  #173
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Ravian's Avatar
 

Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by xmostynx View Post
you where talking about a keyboard yes?
i have-never been able to hear feedback come from a keyboard-unless it was a leslie and it had mics on it...


as far as the balloon theory- its just a DISCRIPTION- its an adjective to describe how much of the sound around the mic you are amplifying- your just not grasping what i'm saying- thats all-

think about it like the one dude said with the strat-

your going to be able to turn up your guitar alot louder if you have your pre amp set lower- and your stomp boxes set lower-

if you crank all your volume from your first gain stages- pre amps/boxes/ your guitar will have less overall volume before it feeds back-

just try it- man i was just a suggestion- and its turning into all out war!
i was referring to the gainstagees of the desk. source doesent mather....
the keyboard was a example.
Old 13th October 2008
  #174
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Remoteness's Avatar
Smile Dastardly Deeds - Coming and Going...

Ah yes, dastardly deeds that were played on us or that we played on others, especially during live or on location when we rarely have a chance to cover (or recover) ourselves.

Has anyone intentionally bagged you or is everyone just as wonderful as expected?

...Any takers out there?

This could be a fun thread or a terrible reminder of how stressful our line of work really is.

I have plenty of stories to tell, but I'm going to start off with an old trick that was played on our drummer by a rival musician during a multiple band contest we did back in the late 70s...

Someone used a small pin to carefully puncture a few tiny holes in our drummer's snare drum, right around where he hit the skin. When done right, (and it was done perfectly) the skin rips upon impact. It was show over for us since we didn't have a second snare drum to swap out...

The lesson learned was to always carry backups with you and never leave your stuff unattended especially during a "battle of the bands" scenario.

There are plenty more stories I can through at you folks. Some are really funny tales with plenty of sad experiences to tell.
What crazy situation can you folks recall?
Old 13th October 2008
  #175
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boojum's Avatar
^^^^ You never did anything like that, right?
Old 13th October 2008
  #176
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iluvatar's Avatar
 

There was a post on HC a while ago about a monitor guy getting even with a particularly rude guitar player by inserting a pitch shifter (1/4 or 1/2 step, I forget) on the guitar channel and engaging it only when he stepped up to take a solo.

-Dan.
Old 13th October 2008
  #177
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maxpidge's Avatar
 

i've always enjoyed talcum powder in the hi-hats myself.....
Old 13th October 2008
  #178
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
^^^^ You never did anything like that, right?
I've done some crazy stuff, but never to sabotage another band or engineer.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of folks that play that game all too often.
Old 13th October 2008
  #179
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t_chance's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvatar View Post
There was a post on HC a while ago about a monitor guy getting even with a particularly rude guitar player by inserting a pitch shifter (1/4 or 1/2 step, I forget) on the guitar channel and engaging it only when he stepped up to take a solo.

-Dan.
I think I work for this guy. At least he's done it one one gig that I know of. The offending solo act apologized promptly on hearing his monitor go a few points off after being a PITA for the FOH/monitors engineer.
Old 14th October 2008
  #180
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justpushplay's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by iluvatar View Post
There was a post on HC a while ago about a monitor guy getting even with a particularly rude guitar player by inserting a pitch shifter (1/4 or 1/2 step, I forget) on the guitar channel and engaging it only when he stepped up to take a solo.

-Dan.
Much fun can be had with that when you involve an SPX-90 in pitch shift mode, and a vocal quartet. I've have never seen singers glare at each other with such intensity....:-)
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