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Question for Steve (Remoteness) re: drum mic Condenser Microphones
Old 24th August 2015
  #91
steve, thank you for the info. have fun recording and mixing!
Old 25th August 2015
  #92
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Thanks!

It turned out to be a great success.

We booked two days for tracking and we were hoping to get some overdubs done at the end of the second day. We ended up tracking all the tunes in one day and even got all the lead GTR overdubs in that same day.

Very impressive situation and the tunes came out great too!

Everyone walked away feeling really good about it all.


Quote:
Originally Posted by imaginaryday View Post
steve, thank you for the info. have fun recording and mixing!
Old 23rd November 2015
  #93
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While checking an entirely different GS thread ("What guitar amp did they use at Rudy Van Gelder's studio?"), i noticed this photo of the Bill Evans Trio recording at RVG mkII studio (Englewood Cliffs) and it dawned on me that ol' secretive cat RVG was also keen on the Knee mic position (augmented w. another mic same height-other side, probably to accentuate hh/sd presence and/or stereo image).
Attached Thumbnails
Question for Steve (Remoteness) re: drum mic-underheads.jpg  

Last edited by DeeZee; 23rd November 2015 at 05:40 PM..
Old 12th April 2018
  #94
Gear Nut
Great thread thanks for the tips and tricks.

Is anyone still using the technique of placing the foam-wrapped mic on top of the kick drum?

I'm interested in the one mic drum method but my drummer has two touted toms and I don't think I could easily use a mic stand to properly position the mic.
Old 16th April 2018
  #95
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwojr View Post
Great thread thanks for the tips and tricks.

Is anyone still using the technique of placing the foam-wrapped mic on top of the kick drum?

I'm interested in the one mic drum method but my drummer has two touted toms and I don't think I could easily use a mic stand to properly position the mic.
Placing the mic on a piece of foam on top of the bass drum will work well as long as you listen while the drummer is playing and position the Mike accordingly.
Old 20th April 2018
  #96
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
Placing the mic on a piece of foam on top of the bass drum will work well as long as you listen while the drummer is playing and position the Mike accordingly.
What a great thread !!

Stellar results Steve! hats off to you!
I'm re-reading this old thread.. very nice!

Have you used shoeps cmc5 mk4 (or cmc6) as OH instead of the Beyer M160?
do you still have that focusrite console in your studio? looks fantastic!

I find the beyer quite bright, I've used with success on several gtr cabs, works well on certain type of sounds/gtrs.

Ciao



Cheu
Old 20th April 2018
  #97
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
What a great thread !!

Stellar results Steve! hats off to you!
I'm re-reading this old thread.. very nice!

Have you used shoeps cmc5 mk4 (or cmc6) as OH instead of the Beyer M160?
do you still have that focusrite console in your studio? looks fantastic!

I find the beyer quite bright, I've used with success on several gtr cabs, works well on certain type of sounds/gtrs.

Ciao



Cheu
Thanks! We have an amazing group of individuals in the Remote Possibilities... forum.

I have not used cmc5 mk4 or cmc6 over the drum kit. I am quite pleased with the sound I get using M160s.

That Focusrite console is still in the studio, it's not my facility. That's a studio called iiwii which is in the SST building in Weehawken, NJ.

That's interesting, I don't find the M160s bright at all.

Here's a couple of pictures showing the M160s in action...
Attached Thumbnails
Question for Steve (Remoteness) re: drum mic-fb_img_1524229963340.jpg   Question for Steve (Remoteness) re: drum mic-fb_img_1524229987354.jpg  
Old 20th April 2018
  #98
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
Thanks! We have an amazing group of individuals in the Remote Possibilities... forum.

I have not used cmc5 mk4 or cmc6 over the drum kit. I am quite pleased with the sound I get using M160s.

That Focusrite console is still in the studio, it's not my facility. That's a studio called iiwii which is in the SST building in Weehawken, NJ.

That's interesting, I don't find the M160s bright at all.

Here's a couple of pictures showing the M160s in action...
...and, here is the final product for the second picture. Keep in mind, I captured the origination for Apple Music and did not mix the tune for this video.

To Mom. For dad, drew and holly.

Apple Music ❤️ Beats 1
Old 20th April 2018
  #99
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
...That Focusrite console is still in the studio, it's not my facility. That's a studio called iiwii which is in the SST building in Weehawken, NJ...
A bit OT, but it is an amazing story how that console, or parts of it, arose like the proverbial phoenix after Hurricane Sandy: iiWii (click on "Past and Present" or scroll down to the text).

The studio is less than a mile from where my daughter lives; I wish I had known when I was down visiting her at Christmas...next time I'll hve to make the pilgrimage!
Old 20th April 2018
  #100
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cheu78's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
Thanks! We have an amazing group of individuals in the Remote Possibilities... forum.

I have not used cmc5 mk4 or cmc6 over the drum kit. I am quite pleased with the sound I get using M160s.

That Focusrite console is still in the studio, it's not my facility. That's a studio called iiwii which is in the SST building in Weehawken, NJ.

That's interesting, I don't find the M160s bright at all.

Here's a couple of pictures showing the M160s in action...
Nice!
Thanks Steve!

I've used the shoeps several times, and find them very nice, they pick up more room than the 414eb I've also used, and sounds a little bit more "diffused" than the 414, also less hard. Although on some material the 414eb are good!

Need to test the 160 out one day in these configuration..
I find it rather bright on the gtr amps.. very lively.. So I'm afraid that will be too much for some pop/rock cymbal hitters..

Thanks again,



Cheu
Old 20th April 2018
  #101
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Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
Nice!
Thanks Steve!

I've used the shoeps several times, and find them very nice, they pick up more room than the 414eb I've also used, and sounds a little bit more "diffused" than the 414, also less hard. Although on some material the 414eb are good!

Need to test the 160 out one day in these configuration..
I find it rather bright on the gtr amps.. very lively.. So I'm afraid that will be too much for some pop/rock cymbal hitters..

Thanks again,



Cheu


I use the M160s to get more of the kit and less of the room. If I want to capture the room I set up additional mics.

IMHO, it's all about how you position them when using M160s for overheads. I don't find them bright at all. They sound perfect as drum overheads for my taste.

Take a listen to the other videos that I've posted in this thread and you will see exactly how the M160s sound on the various music genres.
Old 20th April 2018
  #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
I use the M160s to get more of the kit and less of the room. If I want to capture the room I set up additional mics.
That's also what I do with OH..
I've just wanted to say that they (shoeps) get a little bit more "space" compared to the 414 and sound less hard.

In your clips they sound perfect.. Should really test them out.. Need to buy a second one

Do you have any rules regarding distances between them and between the "right knee" mic?

Thanks again Steve!

Take care,
Ciao

Cheu
Old 21st April 2018
  #103
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by cheu78 View Post
That's also what I do with OH..
I've just wanted to say that they (shoeps) get a little bit more "space" compared to the 414 and sound less hard.

In your clips they sound perfect.. Should really test them out.. Need to buy a second one

Do you have any rules regarding distances between them and between the "right knee" mic?

Thanks again Steve!

Take care,
Ciao

Cheu
It really depends on the situation and environment we are in. I usually listen to the drums in the room and make my mic placement decisions accordingly. As you can see in the photos I like to get those overheads as high as possible over the drum kit. Positioning the right knee microphone has a lot to do with the drummer how the kit is set up. Each capture is its own story on how it gets done.
Old 23rd April 2018
  #104
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Here's a link to the Focusrite documentary which includes the Super Storm Sandy story at 25:26...




Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
A bit OT, but it is an amazing story how that console, or parts of it, arose like the proverbial phoenix after Hurricane Sandy: iiWii (click on "Past and Present" or scroll down to the text).

The studio is less than a mile from where my daughter lives; I wish I had known when I was down visiting her at Christmas...next time I'll hve to make the pilgrimage!
Old 12th September 2018
  #105
Lives for gear
 

Steve,
When doing simultaneous live sound plus live recording any guidance for using right knee technique plus/minus OH’s, kick, other?
Which mic(s) to share for PA plus recording vs PA only and recording only?
Thanks,
Bill
Old 18th September 2018
  #106
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Steve,
When doing simultaneous live sound plus live recording any guidance for using right knee technique plus/minus OH’s, kick, other?
Which mic(s) to share for PA plus recording vs PA only and recording only?
Thanks,
Bill
I'd like to add to this question...can the righty knee Omni or cardioid placement work as a reinforcement PA mic, if the volume necessary isn't high (eg a small club setup) and if the drummer has no monitor wedge nearby ? Only looking for minimal reinforcement to the kit in the house sound. Any comment on whether a dynamic Omni or cardioid might work better than a condenser in this role (I don't have a ribbon mic in my kit) ?
Old 18th September 2018
  #107
Lives for gear
 

Steve R himself should answer, but way back when he first described the use of the knee mic I thought he was talking about a hail-Mary situation as an FOH mixer where he only had two console channels avail for a drum kit, he tried using one of them for the knee mic and The World Was Saved. So, live...I'd guess so. I'm not an FOH guy, but the knee mic has been mighty useful in the kit recordings I've done in recent years--esp in "crammy" stage setups on live gigs.
Old 18th September 2018
  #108
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
Steve R himself should answer, but way back when he first described the use of the knee mic I thought he was talking about a hail-Mary situation as an FOH mixer where he only had two console channels avail for a drum kit, he tried using one of them for the knee mic and The World Was Saved. So, live...I'd guess so. I'm not an FOH guy, but the knee mic has been mighty useful in the kit recordings I've done in recent years--esp in "crammy" stage setups on live gigs.
Yes I trawled through the 4 or so pages of this thread and came across that post of Steve's...and want to try it out myself next week in a PA context.

An omni mic onstage at any sort of volume is kind-of inviting feedback through the main speakers (even if not routed into monitors also), but some EQing to remove LF howl could swing it to the positive. Hence my query about dynamics vs condensors, and omni vs cardioid, which could be additional 'swing factors' to reduce feedback tendencies ? I really want to keep the drum kit very low in the mix, as the accompanying players will be miked (and DI-ed) strings: violin, cello, double bass, plus a few vocals.
Old 18th September 2018
  #109
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again not steve but some experience (from bruford to benante, wackerman to williams and gadson to gadd in between): put any omni condenser (mini mics work well too) on a piece of foam, tape it on top of the kick between snare and floor tom and you should be fine (unless there is a cowbell...) wouldn't use it for amplifying though (as it tends to over-emphazize individual instruments) but rather use low positioned single (wide) cardioid overhead and a kick mic. if any additional mic/channel is available, put it on the snare.
Old 18th September 2018
  #110
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Greetings Earthlings!

Steve tuning in...

Been super busy on a few time sensitive projects.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Steve,
When doing simultaneous live sound plus live recording any guidance for using right knee technique plus/minus OH’s, kick, other?
Which mic(s) to share for PA plus recording vs PA only and recording only?
Thanks,
Bill
For me, I can make the right knee technique work with or without OHs and such. Yet, the monitor engineer may not.

When I'm there just as the recordist, I usually add the extra mic or mics I may need and go with what the band's engineers want. That said, the one set of mics I do my best to swap out (upon discussion with the FOH & MON engineers) are the overheads mics. I just love what I can get using M160s, especially when they are positioned correctly.

Deciding which mics could be share is (IMHO) really up to the band's engineer. I usually take everything and sort it out during the sound check. If I'm positioning the mics, confidence is high that I will get exactly what I need, not just what I want. In any event, if you have the tracks take everything you can get.

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I'd like to add to this question...can the righty knee Omni or cardioid placement work as a reinforcement PA mic, if the volume necessary isn't high (eg a small club setup) and if the drummer has no monitor wedge nearby ? Only looking for minimal reinforcement to the kit in the house sound. Any comment on whether a dynamic Omni or cardioid might work better than a condenser in this role (I don't have a ribbon mic in my kit) ?
The Righty Drummers Right Knee Technique (in omni) was originally used as a reinforcement PA mic. Back in the early '80s you were lucky to get 13 working channels out of a 16 channel live sound console. I was working with a relatively large band and didn't have enough channels to have everyone heard, so I had to figure out a way to make it so. The drums were the only instrument that I could have reduced the inputs on. That's how I came up with the "Righty Drummers Right Knee Technique." Back in the day, I placed an EV 635A on a bar towel right on top of the bass drum. If I have a second input available for the drums, I added a Sony ECM50 lavalier over the hi-hat. These days, it's a totally difference mindset and dynamic on how and why I use this drum mic technique.

I've been using a cardioid mic so I can minimize the audience leakage. I sometimes also use my "Micro Gobo" for this task. My Micro Gobo also is helpful when the mic is too close to the ride cymbal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
Steve R himself should answer, but way back when he first described the use of the knee mic I thought he was talking about a hail-Mary situation as an FOH mixer where he only had two console channels avail for a drum kit, he tried using one of them for the knee mic and The World Was Saved. So, live...I'd guess so. I'm not an FOH guy, but the knee mic has been mighty useful in the kit recordings I've done in recent years--esp in "crammy" stage setups on live gigs.
Yes indeed! It was a hail-Mary situation as an FOH mixer which I described above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Yes I trawled through the 4 or so pages of this thread and came across that post of Steve's...and want to try it out myself next week in a PA context.

An omni mic onstage at any sort of volume is kind-of inviting feedback through the main speakers (even if not routed into monitors also), but some EQing to remove LF howl could swing it to the positive. Hence my query about dynamics vs condensors, and omni vs cardioid, which could be additional 'swing factors' to reduce feedback tendencies ? I really want to keep the drum kit very low in the mix, as the accompanying players will be miked (and DI-ed) strings: violin, cello, double bass, plus a few vocals.
There are some great discussions on this forum. A lot of good and valuable information can be found in this particular forum.

I disagree with the idea that an omni mic onstage (at any sort of volume) is kind-of inviting feedback through the main speakers. It's all about your gain structure and how much dynamic range you have in the system. I don't know, I made it work in the early '80s and those systems were nothing like what we have available today. but, like you said, a little processing and you can make it work for you.

For me, picking a dynamic vs condenser and omni vs cardioid for the task is more about the isolation I want to achieve and the sound I want to capture or reinforce.

There's really no wrong way of doing it, as long as it sounds good.

Quote:
Originally Posted by deedeeyeah View Post
again not steve but some experience (from bruford to benante, wackerman to williams and gadson to gadd in between): put any omni condenser (mini mics work well too) on a piece of foam, tape it on top of the kick between snare and floor tom and you should be fine (unless there is a cowbell...) wouldn't use it for amplifying though (as it tends to over-emphazize individual instruments) but rather use low positioned single (wide) cardioid overhead and a kick mic. if any additional mic/channel is available, put it on the snare.
I must agree with you on this one except about the cowbell. That really depends on the drummer.

I was recording a live music performance album with Jeff "Tain" Watts and after I placed my "Knee" mic" he positioned a big old cowbell smack center of his bass drum. I explained to him about the mic placement and said, I will have to move the mic due to the position of his cowbell. He said, "why do you have to do that?" I said, "I'm going to get too much cowbell in the blend." Or, something to that affect. He said, "no problem, I'll hit it lighter to make it work for you." I must say, it was incredible. It sounded like the mic was two feet away from the bell. He's such an incredible individual!

When I position my (Righty) Drummer's Right Knee mic, I make sure the placement picks up each and every drum and cymbal equally. If it doesn't sound balanced I move the mic and/or place a Micro Gobo or such to make it work.
Old 18th September 2018
  #111
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
Greetings Earthlings!

Steve tuning in...

Been super busy on a few time sensitive projects.



For me, I can make the right knee technique work with or without OHs and such. Yet, the monitor engineer may not.

When I'm there just as the recordist, I usually add the extra mic or mics I may need and go with what the band's engineers want. That said, the one set of mics I do my best to swap out (upon discussion with the FOH & MON engineers) are the overheads mics. I just love what I can get using M160s, especially when they are positioned correctly.

Deciding which mics could be share is (IMHO) really up to the band's engineer. I usually take everything and sort it out during the sound check. If I'm positioning the mics, confidence is high that I will get exactly what I need, not just what I want. In any event, if you have the tracks take everything you can get.



The Righty Drummers Right Knee Technique (in omni) was originally used as a reinforcement PA mic. Back in the early '80s you were lucky to get 13 working channels out of a 16 channel live sound console. I was working with a relatively large band and didn't have enough channels to have everyone heard, so I had to figure out a way to make it so. The drums were the only instrument that I could have reduced the inputs on. That's how I came up with the "Righty Drummers Right Knee Technique." Back in the day, I placed an EV 635A on a bar towel right on top of the bass drum. If I have a second input available for the drums, I added a Sony ECM50 lavalier over the hi-hat. These days, it's a totally difference mindset and dynamic on how and why I use this drum mic technique.

I've been using a cardioid mic so I can minimize the audience leakage. I sometimes also use my "Micro Gobo" for this task. My Micro Gobo also is helpful when the mic is too close to the ride cymbal.



Yes indeed! It was a hail-Mary situation as an FOH mixer which I described above.



There are some great discussions on this forum. A lot of good and valuable information can be found in this particular forum.

I disagree with the idea that an omni mic onstage (at any sort of volume) is kind-of inviting feedback through the main speakers. It's all about your gain structure and how much dynamic range you have in the system. I don't know, I made it work in the early '80s and those systems were nothing like what we have available today. but, like you said, a little processing and you can make it work for you.

For me, picking a dynamic vs condenser and omni vs cardioid for the task is more about the isolation I want to achieve and the sound I want to capture or reinforce.

There's really no wrong way of doing it, as long as it sounds good.



I must agree with you on this one except about the cowbell. That really depends on the drummer.

I was recording a live music performance album with Jeff "Tain" Watts and after I placed my "Knee" mic" he positioned a big old cowbell smack center of his bass drum. I explained to him about the mic placement and said, I will have to move the mic due to the position of his cowbell. He said, "why do you have to do that?" I said, "I'm going to get too much cowbell in the blend." Or, something to that affect. He said, "no problem, I'll hit it lighter to make it work for you." I must say, it was incredible. It sounded like the mic was two feet away from the bell. He's such an incredible individual!

When I position my (Righty) Drummer's Right Knee mic, I make sure the placement picks up each and every drum and cymbal equally. If it doesn't sound balanced I move the mic and/or place a Micro Gobo or such to make it work.
Thanks Steve for the great advice!!
Old 18th September 2018
  #112
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Thanks Steve for the great advice!!
Indeed !
Old 19th September 2018
  #113
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Remoteness's Avatar
The pleasure is all mine, Folkie.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Thanks Steve for the great advice!!
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