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Merging Hapi mic pre's vs. Audient ASP 880 Digital Converters
Old 28th December 2016
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas_G View Post
I would need 16 channels input and 8 outputs is more than enough for me. How can one assemble this in the Hapi? Can one stil get the ADA8 board and combine that with a AD8?

If that is possible, one can't record or play DSD.

Lucas
Hi Lucas,

I am assuming location recording here. Why do you need the D/A card at all if recording 16ch DSD. The AD8DP has direct outs which you can send to a mixer for monitoring, and then just record the 16 DSD channels. Later you can reconfig HAPI with D/A cards in post and mix again on an analog mixer back at the studio.
Old 29th December 2016
  #32
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas_G View Post
Thanks Doc,

That's clear.

I guess they don't like cheap stuff at Merging...
I suspect what it really is is that they don't devote (and I don't blame them) a bunch of effort at "qualifying/certifying" Ethernet switches. Honestly, any decent Ethernet switch will work for audio-over-ip, especially if it's a dedicated LAN and it's not carrying hundreds of devices.

The only real "gotcha" I'm aware of with Ravenna/AES67/Dante (which are all similar in terms of the types of packets they stick into ethernet frames) is that you must NOT have Energy Efficient Ethernet/Green Ethernet/802.3az turned on because it can mess up the timing packets.
Old 29th December 2016
  #33
Gear Nut
 

One thing to consider is that the switch is vital to your recording chain.
It may not need to be too feature rich, but it definitely need to be super reliable.
That criteria alone will leave most cheap consumer switches out of the question.
Old 29th December 2016
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Hi Lucas,

I am assuming location recording here. Why do you need the D/A card at all if recording 16ch DSD. The AD8DP has direct outs which you can send to a mixer for monitoring, and then just record the 16 DSD channels. Later you can reconfig HAPI with D/A cards in post and mix again on an analog mixer back at the studio.
Hi David,

yes it is location recording, and I would use the direct outs for backup on two Tascam recorders. Seems a very reliable way of having backups (or am I wrong here?).

However, I would not be able to listen, edit and mix the DSD recordings, because the Prism, RME and Motu interfaces that I own do not playback DSD. Or would it be possible to listen to DSD files in Pyramix with a non DSD soundcard? Can Pyramix convert on the fly for playback?

I know that many people don't value DSD so much, but I would like to have this route open when investing in Merging hardware.
Old 29th December 2016
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljudatervinning View Post
One thing to consider is that the switch is vital to your recording chain.
It may not need to be too feature rich, but it definitely need to be super reliable.
That criteria alone will leave most cheap consumer switches out of the question.
Yes, you are right. Would not want any hickups while recording. I guess a little but good quality Cisco switch will do. I would use it exclusively for this purpose. Internet and other traffic would not be on the same line.
Old 29th December 2016
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas_G View Post
Or would it be possible to listen to DSD files in Pyramix with a non DSD soundcard? Can Pyramix convert on the fly for playback?
DSD cannot be mixed in Pyramix either so while you can certainly playback the 16ch of DSD you will still need two Merging D/A cards to convert all the tracks to analog for monitoring or mixing in post, again in an external mixer.

This is the problem with multichannel DSD, its a bugger to work with, without converting it back to PCM for post processing.

But with one hapi configured with two AD8DP (and without the need for a switch), you can record and monitor 16ch of DSD.

Quote:
I know that many people don't value DSD so much, but I would like to have this route open when investing in Merging hardware.
Yes, I invested in this capability but no-one has asked for it or seems interested as yet. Its a significant investment just to sit there. Perhaps renting some Merging cards when the need arises would be the best option, if it existed. I have thought about this a lot and would jump at this sort of service. This is a great feature of the Merging chassis' that you can mix and match cards and config pretty easily, it would work well for rental of extra channels or DSD on the very few occasions that you needed it.
Old 29th December 2016
  #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljudatervinning View Post
One thing to consider is that the switch is vital to your recording chain.
Only if you need more than one Ravenna device sniffing the same packets.
Old 29th December 2016
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
But with one hapi configured with two AD8DP (and without the need for a switch), you can record and monitor 16ch of DSD.
.
Just to be sure that I understand you well; Can one listen to DSD files with an AD8DP card? I thought the direct out were only giving you what comes from the micpre's, i.e. there's no DSD DA conversion built in... Am I wrong?
Old 29th December 2016
  #39
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Only if you need more than one Ravenna device sniffing the same packets.
If you don't have more than one Ravenna device... you don't have any use for Ravenna, no? The whole point is to transport bits, and that implies at least two hosts.

edit: if you have only two hosts, then most will work just fine with a single cable between them, automatically negotiating a private IP address AND doing the whole MDI-X thing so you don't need a crossover cable.
Old 30th December 2016
  #40
Deleted User
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If you only have two devices and using Dante/Ravenna/AES67 as a point to point connection, the benefits of deploying an IP-based system are nonexistent. One might as well just use SDI/MADI/AES and connect point to point.
Old 30th December 2016
  #41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
If you only have two devices and using Dante/Ravenna/AES67 as a point to point connection, the benefits of deploying an IP-based system are nonexistent. One might as well just use SDI/MADI/AES and connect point to point.
Not necessarily. You may have a bunch of IP gear and only need two pieces, and in that case, my point is that a single cable is more reliable than two cables and a switch (or in the case of Dante, put in two cables rather than four cables and two switches, and have redundancy).
Old 30th December 2016
  #42
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas_G View Post
Just to be sure that I understand you well; Can one listen to DSD files with an AD8DP card? I thought the direct out were only giving you what comes from the micpre's, i.e. there's no DSD DA conversion built in... Am I wrong?
You're correct; the AD8DP Direct Outputs are a post preamps analog signal. There's no D/A conversion on the card.
Old 30th December 2016
  #43
Gear Nut
 

You can use the headphone out to listen to DSD 64 and 128. But not yet DSD 256. This regardless of what cards you use.
Old 30th December 2016
  #44
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas_G View Post
Or would it be possible to listen to DSD files in Pyramix with a non DSD soundcard? Can Pyramix convert on the fly for playback?

I know that many people don't value DSD so much, but I would like to have this route open when investing in Merging hardware.
With the greatest respect to David's reply to this question, Pyramix is available in two flavors; Native and Masscore. Running a Hapi under Pyramix Masscore Mastering Pack enables the ability of recording any DSD bit rate in a DXD Mixing Project. This allows on the fly DXD (PCM) conversion and mixing for monitoring of the number of channels supported by the Mastering Pack version (16 minimum), while recording the DSD bitstreams. The gotcha is without a DAC card in a single Hapi, the only other available DAC for monitoring is the onboard Hapi headphone output DAC. This headphone DAC unfortunitly is not the same DAC chip on the DA8P, and is limited to DSD64 and DSD128 recording/mixing inputs. However, using Pyramix Masscore and two AD8DP or the new AKD8DP input cards, plus the Headphone output, a stereo monitor mix of up to 16 channels can be performed up to DSDS128.

Last edited by tailspn; 31st December 2016 at 02:08 AM..
Old 30th December 2016
  #45
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Thanks ljudatervinning and tailspn for the info on the headphone output. Hadn't thought of that possibility. Did anyone use these to listen on speakers?
Old 31st December 2016
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
With the greatest respect to David's reply to this question, Pyramix is available in two flavors; Native and Masscore.
Yes, thanks for pointing this out Tom. As Lucas was obviously on a budget I was emphasising the most economical solution for data acquisition while keeping strictly to DSD.
Old 31st December 2016
  #47
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For location recording, I don't see the attraction of using gear offering numerous unnecessary options, and which must be connected to a computer.
Old 31st December 2016
  #48
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tourtelot's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
For location recording, I don't see the attraction of using gear offering numerous unnecessary options, and which must be connected to a computer.
For me, and not realized yet, the upside of the "gear" and a computer is not having to carry 300' of copper 32-pair on location. The "gear" is how I'll get there (Dante).

D.
Old 31st December 2016
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
For me, and not realized yet, the upside of the "gear" and a computer is not having to carry 300' of copper 32-pair on location. The "gear" is how I'll get there (Dante).

D.
If I am interpreting you correctly, are you saying that you need Dante because you use 32 channels of microphones, each with a regular or snake reduced size 300' long xlr cable, and that you want to eliminate the bulk of the cables ?
Old 31st December 2016
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
If you only have two devices and using Dante/Ravenna/AES67 as a point to point connection, the benefits of deploying an IP-based system are nonexistent. One might as well just use SDI/MADI/AES and connect point to point.
Except that you can send 48 channels from stage with a single Ethernet cable. No huge snakes.
Old 1st January 2017
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Except that you can send 48 channels from stage with a single Ethernet cable. No huge snakes.
Does MADI not offer the same? Single cable, 64 channels, up to 2000m.

Why is IP the better solution?
Old 1st January 2017
  #52
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
Does MADI not offer the same? Single cable, 64 channels, up to 2000m.

Why is IP the better solution?
True, but IP doesn't need special cards in either PC or Interface.
Old 1st January 2017
  #53
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
True, but IP doesn't need special cards in either PC or Interface.
Also the signal can be multiplied infinitely with any ethernet switch, so doing backups on a second computer is a breeze and almost free
Old 1st January 2017
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyjanopan View Post
Also the signal can be multiplied infinitely with any ethernet switch, so doing backups on a second computer is a breeze and almost free
Now you have moved beyond the two devices connected point to point, where the benefits of IP start begin to open up.

Besides being cheaper, I don't see why IP would be the preferred choice in a point to point (one way traffic) configuration. It certainly isn't any better than using, say, MADI. It's just cheaper.
Old 1st January 2017
  #55
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
Now you have moved beyond the two devices connected point to point, where the benefits of IP start begin to open up.

Besides being cheaper, I don't see why IP would be the preferred choice in a point to point (one way traffic) configuration. It certainly isn't any better than using, say, MADI. It's just cheaper.
To me back up (and how easy it is) is definitely in realms of point to point configuration, it is essential doing critical recordings. Other benefits of IP are so much bigger that I treat them as a separate thing. No additional device between the cable and the computer is enough of a benefit to me. Oh and 64 channels at 192kHz. But even if isn't any better (that means it is as good), and offer more for less, then to me it's plenty better.

Last edited by cyjanopan; 1st January 2017 at 12:36 PM..
Old 1st January 2017
  #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cyjanopan View Post
To me back up (and how easy it is) is definitely in realms of point to point configuration, it is essential doing critical recordings. Other benefits of IP are so much bigger than I treat them as a separate thing. No additional device between the cable and the recording machine is enough of a benefit to me. Oh and 64 channels at 192kHz.
I think you misunderstand.

I have been using IP networks for audio for a few years (along with video the last year and a bit) and in mixed networks for live broadcast, streaming and album releases, so don't misconstrue and believe my statements above point to me being anti-IP for audio or video. I am well aware of what the benefits and pitfalls are, as these configurations have been in use daily here for a few years.

In terms of backup, you are again preaching to the choir. SoundDevices 970s serve as main audio recorders on location as well as backups (4 storage caddies per device), used in both MADI-only and Dante-only configurations. That is 128 channels for metadata specified immersive audio at 96k.

I don't follow the marketing rates, so 192k is meaningless and therefore non-existent in my workflow.

You still need to illustrate why IP is preferred to MADI with two devices in a point to point configuration.
Here is my statement again:
"If you only have two devices and using Dante/Ravenna/AES67 as a point to point connection, the benefits of deploying an IP-based system are nonexistent. One might as well just use SDI/MADI/AES and connect point to point."
Old 1st January 2017
  #57
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
I think you misunderstand.

Here is my statement again:
"If you only have two devices and using Dante/Ravenna/AES67 as a point to point connection, the benefits of deploying an IP-based system are nonexistent. One might as well just use SDI/MADI/AES and connect point to point."
I agree, in a very specific situation, and without the prospect of ever expanding the setup or using it in any other way, they are as good.
Old 1st January 2017
  #58
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Wink

Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
It certainly isn't any better than using, say, MADI. It's just cheaper.
Therefore it's better.
Old 1st January 2017
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Therefore it's better.
No, just cheaper.
Old 1st January 2017
  #60
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deleted User View Post
No, just cheaper.
Which means 'better' if you get the same quality at less cost.
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