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Blumlein mixing help?
Old 8th November 2006
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Question Blumlein mixing help?

Hey guys, I am recording a singer/guitar player with a Blumlein pair in the room (2 ribbons)...how do you guys pan these in the mix for the best effect? hard left and right?

What if I decoded each ribbon mic into a stereo track (front lobe left, rear lobe right phase reversed) Have any of you tried any cool panning tricks with this idea?

CHEERZ
Old 8th November 2006
  #2
Gear Maniac
 

Nobody???
Old 8th November 2006
  #3
Lives for gear
 
T.RayBullard's Avatar
 

hard left and right for blumlein.

Teddy
Old 8th November 2006
  #4
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Martin Kantola's Avatar
 

Cool idea, but...

Splitting a figure-8 into two lobes isn't exactly easy... Have you tried it?

Why did you use Blumlein if you're not sure what kind of a sound you're looking for? Only you can know that... trust your own instincts!

Martin
Old 8th November 2006
  #5
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks Teddy, that is what I imagined...

Martin, I love M/S recording...just got another matching ribbon so I wanted to try some Blumlein. I am going for that wide roomy sound. I guess "splitting lobes" was not exactly what I meant...what I meant was decoding each mic into left & right like you would if the ribbon were in a M/S setup (as Side)...that way I would have four separate signals to pan around, but the more I think about it the less I think it will work.

Thanks guys.
Old 8th November 2006
  #6
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by af_analog View Post
I am going for that wide roomy sound. I guess "splitting lobes" was not exactly what I meant...what I meant was decoding each mic into left & right like you would if the ribbon were in a M/S setup (as Side)...that way I would have four separate signals to pan around, but the more I think about it the less I think it will work.

.
This just makes no sense. You cannot separate lobes of a figure height microphone.

One side is picking a signal, that the other side is picking out of phase.

Blumein is not M/S. While M/S gives you a great mono compatibility with great control over sereo image, the Blumein gives you great stereo accuracy as long as what you are recording remains in the 90° angle formed by your couple of figure eight microphone. Everything outside this angle will be difficult to locate.

There is indeed a "decoding" in Blumein, but it is allready in your L/R (hard panned, mind you) signal.

hope this help

regards
Old 8th November 2006
  #7
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Alexi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by T.RayBullard View Post
hard left and right for blumlein.

Teddy
....so 3 and 9 o'clock or 5 and 7 ?
Old 8th November 2006
  #8
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Martin Kantola's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by af_analog View Post
Thanks Teddy, that is what I imagined...

Martin, I love M/S recording...just got another matching ribbon so I wanted to try some Blumlein. I am going for that wide roomy sound. I guess "splitting lobes" was not exactly what I meant...what I meant was decoding each mic into left & right like you would if the ribbon were in a M/S setup (as Side)...that way I would have four separate signals to pan around, but the more I think about it the less I think it will work.

Thanks guys.
I see, have you ever listened to the "S"-signal only in M/S? If not, do it now and you might understand why it's not very useable on it's own.

Your idea is still exciting, I like that somebody is brave enough to suggest new things.

It is possible to build a microphone that does what you suggest, where you have four lobes to freely play with...


Martin
Old 9th November 2006
  #9
Gear Head
 

Martin is absolutely correct in what he says - you will loose all information that is common to both lobes ie your centre.

Prof Blumlein did also invent M-S but they are 2 very different tecniques.

What hasn't been mentioned is what happens to Blumlein when it is decoded by a Dolby stereo or Pro-Logic decoder (not dolby digital). The phase relationship between the two lobes corresponds with the phase relationship between LCRS. The rear facing lobes naturally encode to the rear, resulting in the most delicious natural surround effect. I have recorded a great deal of both music and atmospheres for film in this way. Interestingly M-S can bunch in the centre or spill into the surrounds when decoded in Dolby Stereo.

Check out some info on Chesky records (Barry Wolifson) they record in this way with musicians set up as per the desired image in what I am led to believe is a converted church.

"The New Stereo Sound Book" by a delightful chap named Ron Streycher is a bible for anyone who is interested in stereo techniques.
Old 9th November 2006
  #10
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Matti's Avatar
You can do MS with fig.8 mics but then you aim them differently.
Picture courtesy Wes Dooley
Matti
Old 9th November 2006
  #11
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Martin Kantola's Avatar
 

Blumlein meets M/S

Terve Matti,

your pic was very low resolution, but I think I got the point. Yes, it's possible to use a second fig-8 as the "mid" microphone.

Questions is, what do we acheive with that?

Unless I'm totally mistaken, by varying the M/S-proprtions in the mix, you'll have wider or narrower Blumlein-style pickup, because the resulting polar patterns will always remain fig-8.

In other words, more or less "stereo", same thing you can do with your pan pots or a stereo expander (which is an M-S mixer anyway).

There is however, in what you suggest, one important difference compared to the usual 90 degree crossed fig-8 Blumlein...

Scott, very interesting points, I'm familiar with some of the Chesky material, will check out the book you suggested too!

Martin
Old 9th November 2006
  #12
Old 9th November 2006
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

Thanks everyone for contributing to this thread...I appreciate the help!
Old 9th November 2006
  #14
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Matti's Avatar
Terve Martin!
You are a rare partipiciant around here!
I just showd that pic. to make an interest
for googling for Wes Doodley and his articles
on the subject.
Martin, I have a guestion, please contact by E-mail if you could.
Regards
Matti
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