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HAPI, Son of Horus Audio Interfaces
Old 6th June 2015
  #241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkAudio View Post
You are correct about the D designation, but it is not particularly important these days as Merging no longer offers a version of the the ADA8 without direct outs. So pardon my shorthand leaving out the D at the end.

It is important, and no... Merging does not offer a ADA8 with directs... That was my point. I want an ADA8DP option... but it does not exist, nor does an ADA8 with directs (which would be ADA8D).

On the other hand, Merging does still offer both the AD8 and the AD8D, as well as the AD8P and the AD8DP. They are different models and cost different amounts, so the D does matter.
Old 6th June 2015
  #242
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidify View Post
On the other hand, Merging does still offer both the AD8 and the AD8D, as well as the AD8P and the AD8DP. They are different models and cost different amounts, so the D does matter.
You are incorrect and you can confirm this with your local dealer, the Merging website or a current pricelist (January 2015).
The version you are referring to was discontinued some time ago.

Merging Technologies - Networked audio option cards

There are only three analogue input cards available and they are listed in the pricelist as:

IOM-HORUS-AD8D
IOM-HORUS-AD8DP
IOM-H-ADA8
Old 7th June 2015
  #243
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkAudio View Post
You are incorrect and you can confirm this with your local dealer, the Merging website or a current pricelist (January 2015).
The version you are referring to was discontinued some time ago.

Merging Technologies - Networked audio option cards

There are only three analogue input cards available and they are listed in the pricelist as:

IOM-HORUS-AD8D
IOM-HORUS-AD8DP
IOM-H-ADA8
I just bought a HAPI a week ago, and was offered both at different prices. I guess they were offering back stock?
Old 7th June 2015
  #244
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I wonder what the fuss is all about, regarding the option cards for either Horus or Hapi. It´s pretty clear on Merging´s website.

There are two AD cards models, one that goes up to 192Khz and the other called premium that also handles DXD and DSD 256. BOTH have direct outs in DB25 connectors that output the signals after the preamp stages of each channel. No mic signal split here, only direct line outs.

There´s also two DA cards models, again in both regular and premium versions.

A more recent model, features a combination of 8 channel I/O, allowing more compact and increased channel count on each slot available on either units. This model doesn´t have any direct outs, as the card is only fitted with two DB25 connectors, one for AD and another for DA. It also only handles fs up to 192 KHZ.

Finnally, there´s a MADI option card that in the case of the Hapi is optional and on the Horus complements the factory built-in MADI I/O and increases MADI channel count.

So, 6 cards in all.

So, I guess that what some people would like to have is:

1- Direct outs on the combined I/O card refered above, but that would only be possible by having an internal connector on the card and a DB25 extension bracket that would fit in one of the available slots. But this would defeat the purpose of the card itself which is to increase channel counts taking the available slots.

2-A premium version of the combined I/O card that could also handle DXD and DSD 256. Not sure if this is possible as otherwise would be available since the launch of the card.

Hapi Horusing to all!
Old 7th June 2015
  #245
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo m View Post
I wonder what the fuss is all about, regarding the option cards for either Horus or Hapi. It´s pretty clear on Merging´s website.

There are two AD cards models, one that goes up to 192Khz and the other called premium that also handles DXD and DSD 256. BOTH have direct outs in DB25 connectors that output the signals after the preamp stages of each channel. No mic signal split here, only direct line outs.

There´s also two DA cards models, again in both regular and premium versions.

A more recent model, features a combination of 8 channel I/O, allowing more compact and increased channel count on each slot available on either units. This model doesn´t have any direct outs, as the card is only fitted with two DB25 connectors, one for AD and another for DA. It also only handles fs up to 192 KHZ.

Finnally, there´s a MADI option card that in the case of the Hapi is optional and on the Horus complements the factory built-in MADI I/O and increases MADI channel count.

So, 6 cards in all.

So, I guess that what some people would like to have is:

1- Direct outs on the combined I/O card refered above, but that would only be possible by having an internal connector on the card and a DB25 extension bracket that would fit in one of the available slots. But this would defeat the purpose of the card itself which is to increase channel counts taking the available slots.

2-A premium version of the combined I/O card that could also handle DXD and DSD 256. Not sure if this is possible as otherwise would be available since the launch of the card.

Hapi Horusing to all!
Good breakdown, although just a week ago, when I ordered my HAPI, the older versions without the direct outs were also still available via the retailer.

My main point on the combined I/O card (ADA8) is that you could actually fit 3 DB-25's on one card based on quick measurements I did. It certainly wouldn't leave much room, but it would allow for direct outs on the same card.

In my opinion, if you don't have direct outs, the preamps become far less useful because you can't monitor with zero latency. You are forced to use software monitoring and there is no current solution that offers reasonable latency except pyramix with mass core.

The preamps would still be useful for live recordings, but this is primarily a studio tool for me, so I need the directs to feed zero latency headphone mixes for musicians. Either that or someone needs to offer a near 0 latency AES67 cue mix software.
Old 7th June 2015
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidify View Post
Good breakdown, although just a week ago, when I ordered my HAPI, the older versions without the direct outs were also still available via the retailer.

My main point on the combined I/O card (ADA8) is that you could actually fit 3 DB-25's on one card based on quick measurements I did. It certainly wouldn't leave much room, but it would allow for direct outs on the same card.

In my opinion, if you don't have direct outs, the preamps become far less useful because you can't monitor with zero latency. You are forced to use software monitoring and there is no current solution that offers reasonable latency except pyramix with mass core.

The preamps would still be useful for live recordings, but this is primarily a studio tool for me, so I need the directs to feed zero latency headphone mixes for musicians. Either that or someone needs to offer a near 0 latency AES67 cue mix software.
I understand your point. The problem with the 3 DB25´s fitting or not on the back of the card bracket is mainly on the inside, before the connectors, as probably there´s no space for the necessary components. Just a guess of course.
Having said that, is true that you can have Direct Monitoring strips in the Pyramix mixer, but when tracking using other DAW´s your suggestion makes sense. However, feeding direct outs to musician headphones is nice, but there are also drawbacks. For instance, on non live performances, when you need to overdub or punch in/out, feeding the phones via direct outs poses a problem when needing to hear what´s previously recorded plus the instrument. Also, if you´re using groups in the mixer to sum for instance close and ambient miking and send to cue mixes, again you´re in trouble using the direct out approach.

I think it would be interesting to have some sort of headphone cue mixers that could incorporate Ravena, Dante etc. or provide AES67 as you say. I´m talking about hardware units here as well. Imagine for example AVIOM or Hearback systems featuring that implementation of AoIP. It would be great and maybe not to far.
Old 7th June 2015
  #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulo m View Post
I understand your point. The problem with the 3 DB25´s fitting or not on the back of the card bracket is mainly on the inside, before the connectors, as probably there´s no space for the necessary components. Just a guess of course.
Having said that, is true that you can have Direct Monitoring strips in the Pyramix mixer, but when tracking using other DAW´s your suggestion makes sense. However, feeding direct outs to musician headphones is nice, but there are also drawbacks. For instance, on non live performances, when you need to overdub or punch in/out, feeding the phones via direct outs poses a problem when needing to hear what´s previously recorded plus the instrument. Also, if you´re using groups in the mixer to sum for instance close and ambient miking and send to cue mixes, again you´re in trouble using the direct out approach.

I think it would be interesting to have some sort of headphone cue mixers that could incorporate Ravena, Dante etc. or provide AES67 as you say. I´m talking about hardware units here as well. Imagine for example AVIOM or Hearback systems featuring that implementation of AoIP. It would be great and maybe not to far.
I like this suggestion a lot.

For the Direct outs, your could combine your suggestion to have a breakout cable from somewhere else on the card, but that connects to a DB25 on the same backplate.

And as you noted, I can't afford Pyramix, so I am using a different DAW. The latencies I am experiencing are completely unusable for any type of monitoring.

For tracking, punch ins aren't a problem... they just require clicking record on your DAW which then automatically turns off the playback of the previously recorded track. So when you start recording, you are hearing your previous take along with your live take at the same time for a few seconds until the earlier recorded track drops out. It isn't too bad at all for the artist.

The biggest negative of an analog monitoring system is that I am completely reliant on my analog rack effects to provide reverb via the inserts on the sends on my board. Also not a problem, but it doesn't give the artist a good understanding on what they are going to sound like after the recording... really not that bad though.

Summing close and ambient mics is easy too since you just use the sends from each channel on your mixer to feed which ever bus you are sending to the artist.

All in all, I'd rather have completely dry monitoring that is time accurate than monitor with any noticeable latency in the artists ear.

Last edited by liquidify; 7th June 2015 at 05:05 PM.. Reason: add clarity
Old 7th June 2015
  #248
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NetworkAudio's Avatar
It is possible to route the AD input directly to the DA output in blocks of 8ch.
Using this, you will get extremely low latency which you can sum with any playback from the DAW externally with a cheap analogue mixer. You can also route the AD input to any digital output so you can alternatively mix your cue mix on a cheap digital mixer.

This is explained in the Hapi manual page 49 - Routing menu

You can also reduce latency a little bit by changing the DA roll-off filter.
From the manual:

"Sharp roll-off filter: Offers a flat frequency response up to 22kHz, within 0.2dB, which has the tradeoff of 36 samples latency. This mode was and still is the default one.
Slow roll-off filter: Offers a low latency of 9 samples, with the tradeoff of a gentle frequency response attenuation starting around 16kHz and reaching -2.5dB at 22kHz"

Last edited by NetworkAudio; 7th June 2015 at 05:40 PM..
Old 7th June 2015
  #249
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkAudio View Post
It is possible to route the AD input directly to the DA output in blocks of 8ch.
Using this, you will get extremely low latency which you can sum with any playback from the DAW externally with a cheap analogue mixer. You can also route the AD input to any digital output so you can alternatively mix your cue mix on a cheap digital mixer.

This is explained in the Hapi manual page 49 - Routing menu

You can also reduce latency a little bit by changing the DA roll-off filter.
From the manual:

"Sharp roll-off filter: Offers a flat frequency response up to 22kHz, within 0.2dB, which has the tradeoff of 36 samples latency. This mode was and still is the default one.
Slow roll-off filter: Offers a low latency of 9 samples, with the tradeoff of a gentle frequency response attenuation starting around 16kHz and reaching -2.5dB at 22kHz"
I can see a few situations where routing the input to the output might make sense, but for the most part, not in groups of 8, as this negates the purpose of having the outputs... Normally these outputs would be used for sending different mixes out to the musicians from your DAW. If you route the inputs directly to the outputs, then you lose the ability to monitor anything except those inputs, and then you are back to where you started which is either monitoring via the headphone outputs, or using external preamps so that you can monitor directly in the analog domain.
Old 7th June 2015
  #250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NetworkAudio View Post
It is possible to route the AD input directly to the DA output in blocks of 8ch.
Using this, you will get extremely low latency which you can sum with any playback from the DAW externally with a cheap analogue mixer. You can also route the AD input to any digital output so you can alternatively mix your cue mix on a cheap digital mixer.

This is explained in the Hapi manual page 49 - Routing menu
If using PMX, is this better than using direct outs in mixer and routing them to available outputs? The DO approach allows for individual channel routing rather than blocks of eight? Is latency the only downside with this approach?
Old 8th June 2015
  #251
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NetworkAudio's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
If using PMX, is this better than using direct outs in mixer and routing them to available outputs? The DO approach allows for individual channel routing rather than blocks of eight? Is latency the only downside with this approach?
I think direct monitoring outs in the mixer in Pyramix work well, but in terms of Hapi a lot of people are not using Pyramix

Last edited by NetworkAudio; 8th June 2015 at 04:21 PM..
Old 8th June 2015
  #252
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Direct outs in the Pyramix mixer is one thing, direct monitoring strips is another. Direct monitoring strips do not allow insertion of VST plugins, therefore bypass the ADC in the mixer and were introduced precisely for lower latency when tracking and feeding headphones.

I know people using Horus/Hapi with DAW´s such as Logic for tracking and using the Ravenna Core Audio drivers, without latency problems.
Old 13th June 2015
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liquidify View Post
... I want an ADA8DP option... but it does not exist, ...
ADA cards do not use the ARDA chips. They are different converters. Thus no premium version. Don't hold your breath since you will not get it with this card.

Conceptually they could possibly combine two premium cards, but the ADA is no doubt aimed at a lower price point for entry into Merging... So again, this wouldn't make much sense for them. If you wish to have high channel count premium cards, you need to invest into Horus.
Old 14th June 2015
  #254
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcskier View Post
ADA cards do not use the ARDA chips. They are different converters. Thus no premium version. Don't hold your breath since you will not get it with this card.

Conceptually they could possibly combine two premium cards, but the ADA is no doubt aimed at a lower price point for entry into Merging... So again, this wouldn't make much sense for them. If you wish to have high channel count premium cards, you need to invest into Horus.
Actually this is not true, It had to do with power supply and heat dissipation issues combining all that circuitry on a single board. The AKM chips draw a fraction of the current of the Arda chips.
All the best,
Mark
Old 14th June 2015
  #255
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpdonahue View Post
Actually this is not true, It had to do with power supply and heat dissipation issues combining all that circuitry on a single board. The AKM chips draw a fraction of the current of the Arda chips.
All the best,
Mark
Great to know. Thanks Mark.

My primary point above was simply the AKM based ADA cards will not yield the specifications the premium Arda based cards will produce.

Last edited by xcskier; 14th June 2015 at 06:34 AM..
Old 14th June 2015
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpdonahue View Post
...It had to do with power supply and heat dissipation issues combining all that circuitry on a single board. ...
Actually since we on the topic, do you happen to know the initiative that lead to the ADA ? Was it Merging's forethought anticipating the context surrounding Hapi, or did it come from a user like yourself with pull at Merging?

Many of us can only imagine you were the first to experiment with Horus on steroids , deep in the secret bowels of Soundmirror
Old 14th June 2015
  #257
Quote:
Originally Posted by xcskier View Post
Actually since we on the topic, do you happen to know the initiative that lead to the ADA ? Was it Merging's forethought anticipating the context surrounding Hapi, or did it come from a user like yourself with pull at Merging?

Many of us can only imagine you were the first to experiment with Horus on steroids , deep in the secret bowels of Soundmirror
Well, I can't take any credit for the ADA8, but I can take credit for the direct outputs on the AD8DP. We originally had a pair of Horus and had the need for analog splits. We found that the mic preamp signals appeared on a set of test points in the middle of the board and asked Merging to get us access to the signals. It went through a couple of different design concepts trying to make an add on to the existing board, but ultimately they decided that a new board was in order. The direct output electronics is the exact same as in analog section of the DA8P.

WRT the ADA cards, I know that many people have been asking for greater density and both analog ins and outs. We do all our mixing in the box, so for us this has never been an issue. We load all our Horus 40x8, but the folks that like to mix analog wanted equal numbers of outputs. I suspect that the ADA cards really came from the Horus users that wanted a 48x48 in a single frame and for that to work they needed to get the power dissipation down to the limits of the power supply.
Old 15th June 2015
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpdonahue View Post
WRT the ADA cards, I know that many people have been asking for greater density and both analog ins and outs. We do all our mixing in the box, so for us this has never been an issue.
Mark, forgive me if it's a silly question, but could you please describe that mixing process in detail? What exactly do you mean by that? Do you use the Horus' headphones output only? Or is it through the MADI/AES ports? That's what came to my mind initially.
Old 16th June 2015
  #259
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I believe Mark was referring to the card mix Soundmirror populate all their Horus; five AD8DP (40 input channels) and one DA8P (8 output channels). This configuration allows any of their Hours to be either a location 40 channel recorder, or a location or studio mix/play device.

Monitoring on a Horus/Hapi is usually done using the DA8P card for DSD recording, as the headphone out separate DAC is PCM only. For DSD recording, you can build a mixer in a DXD Project, record in any of the DSD bit rates, and monitor the mix in any chosen number of mixed output channels.
Old 16th June 2015
  #260
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post

Monitoring on a Horus/Hapi is usually done using the DA8P card for DSD recording, as the headphone out separate DAC is PCM only.
Refer to the Hapi manual page 30 (revision6) or the current Horus manual p31.
DSD is supported for dsd 64 and 128, but not 256.
Old 16th June 2015
  #261
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Ahh, that's my problem
Old 17th June 2015
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
I believe Mark was referring to the card mix Soundmirror populate all their Horus; five AD8DP (40 input channels) and one DA8P (8 output channels). This configuration allows any of their Hours to be either a location 40 channel recorder, or a location or studio mix/play device.

Monitoring on a Horus/Hapi is usually done using the DA8P card for DSD recording, as the headphone out separate DAC is PCM only. For DSD recording, you can build a mixer in a DXD Project, record in any of the DSD bit rates, and monitor the mix in any chosen number of mixed output channels.
Thanks. For a moment I thought they had no DA8 card and wondered how they'd send what had been recorded to a mixer, monitor controller or headphone amp.
Old 12th August 2015
  #263
Resurrecting this thread to ask those "in the know":

Is Merging planning on releasing Hapi/Horus/Ravenna drivers for any Windows systems past W7? That OS is 6 years old now... Not really trying to go back in history that far.

Along those same lines, is anyone using Hapi or Horus on a W8 system, and if so, how is it working for you?

Thanks,

KB
Old 13th August 2015
  #264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Resurrecting this thread to ask those "in the know":

Is Merging planning on releasing Hapi/Horus/Ravenna drivers for any Windows systems past W7? That OS is 6 years old now... Not really trying to go back in history that far.

Along those same lines, is anyone using Hapi or Horus on a W8 system, and if so, how is it working for you?

Thanks,

KB
Pyramix V9 Native works on Win 8.1. V10 is currently in Beta Test and both MassCore and Native are running on Win 8.1
Old 13th August 2015
  #265
Thanks Larry,

The Merging website only specs their ASIO driver on Windows 7. I am asking because I don't want to buy W8.1 and a Horus and not be able to use them together. For the time being, I'm trying to keep working in Samplitude/Sequoia, Which are Windows-only.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Elliott View Post
Pyramix V9 Native works on Win 8.1. V10 is currently in Beta Test and both MassCore and Native are running on Win 8.1
Old 13th August 2015
  #266
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Thanks Larry,

The Merging website only specs their ASIO driver on Windows 7. I am asking because I don't want to buy W8.1 and a Horus and not be able to use them together. For the time being, I'm trying to keep working in Samplitude/Sequoia, Which are Windows-only.
I am using Windows 8.1 with Version 9 of Pyramix with Hapi and Horus. There have been regular updates of the Asio driver.
Old 13th August 2015
  #267
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
Thanks Larry,

The Merging website only specs their ASIO driver on Windows 7. I am asking because I don't want to buy W8.1 and a Horus and not be able to use them together. For the time being, I'm trying to keep working in Samplitude/Sequoia, Which are Windows-only.
Pyramix 10 native is certified for win 8.1 (64bit only) and is just around the corner.
The Ravenna driver should then be certified for win8.1, but I don't have that in writing. Ask your dealer and they can get an official answer from Merging on this.
Old 13th August 2015
  #268
Thank you gentlemen!
Old 13th October 2015
  #269
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Anyone using their Hapi with Sequoia? I am having occasional audio glitches during playback and I am wondering if someone had come up with a great combination of buffers for the Hapi and Sequoia. It's interesting because the Merging people are telling me I should be keeping the buffer around 256 or less. For me at that setting, I am having bad dropouts, though they go away at 512 and seem to be even better at 1024. Still Merging folks say that is too much buffer. The computer is a brand new HPZbook with a 2.9 gig. quad core I7 and 32 GB of RAM. I have lowered the max processors of Sequoia to 3 as recommended. I do get occasional glitchy stutter noises during advanced crossfades and tones that sound like grabbing an unplugged guitar cable that is plugged into an amp. Hitting undo to remove the crossfades does not fix the glitches. They are unrecoverable until I restart the program. I wish I wasn't taking on two new products at once. Learning Sequoia is a beast!
Thanks!

Cameron
Old 13th October 2015
  #270
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In my experience the recommended setting by Merging is right. You should check whether the ravenna network is the problem source at all. First run dpc latency checker to see if your laptop is capable of running high quality audio in the first place. Then borrow a usb sound card and see if you experience similar problems. Also the computer forum section maybe of more help. Good luck!
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