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HAPI, Son of Horus Audio Interfaces
Old 14th August 2018
  #301
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Ravenna monitor controller!

Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
It'll be interesting to see what all these new products are he alluded to.
Old 14th August 2018
  #302
Gear Nut
 

Great video!

There is also a part 2
Old 14th August 2018
  #303
Gear Addict
 
c1ferrari's Avatar
 

User-friendly version of Pyramix!
Old 14th August 2018
  #304
Quote:
Originally Posted by c1ferrari View Post
User-friendly version of Pyramix!
Pyramix is very user friendly, once the user learns how to use it
Old 14th August 2018
  #305
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Yannick's Avatar
 

And work around the bugs, which prohibit me to invest in updates

The interview is great though. Admittedly, the man is genuinly interested in absolute sound quality, which has always inspired confidence when using Pyramix.

I only disagree with the part where he handily avoids the question about gentle filters and oversampling. Which would solve the 44.1 K problem and go against DXD 350 KHz. But you cant blame someone for being on the cautious side.

Seeing the vid makes me want to invest in the latest updates though, and committing to the forum, as I once did for another DAW.

Maybe a pyramix workshop is nearby, so I could check out v11 or 12 whatever it is for the moment.
Old 14th August 2018
  #306
Gear Maniac
 

Hi Yannick,

It's 11.1.4, just released this week. Your observation about updates is important. I can't imagine owning Pyramix without the software maintenance service. They're just too many additions, improvements, and fixes, especially in conjunction with Horus/Hapi, to be stuck at any one level.

I question how oversampling 44.1 solves the steep filter problem. Or did I misunderstand your point? The necessary steep filtering, and its effects, are baked into the original A/D conversion. How does oversampling remove those effects? I do believe once oversampled (say 8X), post processing that oversampled 44.1KHz, now 352.8KHz, would reduce propagating the already included filtering effects limiting further deterioration.

Last edited by tailspn; 14th August 2018 at 07:43 PM..
Old 14th August 2018
  #307
Lives for gear
Regarding new products, he was actually very clear. The next step is that they will put DSP into their interfaces. Could that be the solution to running Masscore on a laptop? I’m not familiar enough with the architecture to know the answer to that question, but it would seem possible to implement a DSP-based mix engine in the interfaces that would deal with latency as well as perform the real-time conversion from DSD to PCM that would allow the creation of tracking mixes when tracking in DSD. Masscore could be rendered obsolete. But as Claude points out, DSP technology is behind the Moore’s Law technology curve. Still, he did say that they are working on DSP right now. And when we asked them about Masscore on laptops at AES, they said they were working on it. So the pieces start to line up.

For a glimpse of the future of DSP-based networked audio, have a look at Metric Halo 3D. Those folks are doing some very clever things.

Last edited by bwanajim; 14th August 2018 at 08:52 PM..
Old 14th August 2018
  #308
Quote:
Originally Posted by bwanajim View Post
Regarding new products, he was actually very clear. The next step is that they will put DSP into their interfaces.
Two things they really need to add to the interfaces:

- sample rate conversion on the AES inputs

- the ability to assign the rotary volume knob to just a stereo pair of DA, rather than the whole bank of 8.
Old 14th August 2018
  #309
Quote:
Originally Posted by JLaPointe View Post
Two things they really need to add to the interfaces
Two things (hardware) that should have been present from the start:
  • MADI built-in
  • a pair of line level XLR outputs
Old 14th August 2018
  #310
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljudatervinning View Post
Great video!

There is also a part 2
Yes, here is the link.
YouTube

Nice to see the inside of the Nadac, gosh looks like a Hapi card in there! Who would have thought?

Last edited by David Spearritt; 14th August 2018 at 11:46 PM..
Old 14th August 2018
  #311
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
The necessary steep filtering, and its effects, are baked into the original A/D conversion.
How so?

Only when it is sample rate converted back to 44 is there sharper filtering required. But if you have RX you can hear the effects of earlier roll off at say 18kHz or even 17kHz and soften the SRC, it sounds good. And I certainly don't miss the upper frequencies up there.

Everyone pro is recording at or above 96Khz now, surely.
Old 15th August 2018
  #312
Lives for gear
Of course it’s same as the Hapi/Horus cards...

A buddy of mine is a high end hi-fi dealer. A while back we were having lunch and talking about interesting products he could carry. I suggested that he could carry the Hapi with premium D/A installed. Same sound as the NADAC but under $5k. He scoffed, saying that the NADAC would obviously sound better as it was made for hi-fi. I explained we are using Hapi for tracking and mastering. How is a DAC made for domestic use going to improve on that?

Audiophiles are always talking about hearing what mastering engineers hear. Well, why not just use a mastering grade DAC? Then, I explained, if customers want to archive their vinyl to DSD, he could sell them another user-installlable A/D card.

Couldn’t convince him!
Old 15th August 2018
  #313
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
How so?

Only when it is sample rate converted back to 44 is there sharper filtering required.
Agree, but I read Yannick's statement as affecting files originally recorded in 44.1, then upsampled to 352.8KHz. That's why I asked if I understood his statement correctly.
Old 15th August 2018
  #314
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwanajim View Post
Of course it’s same as the Hapi/Horus cards...

A buddy of mine is a high end hi-fi dealer. A while back we were having lunch and talking about interesting products he could carry. I suggested that he could carry the Hapi with premium D/A installed. Same sound as the NADAC but under $5k. He scoffed, saying that the NADAC would obviously sound better as it was made for hi-fi. I explained we are using Hapi for tracking and mastering. How is a DAC made for domestic use going to improve on that?

Audiophiles are always talking about hearing what mastering engineers hear. Well, why not just use a mastering grade DAC? Then, I explained, if customers want to archive their vinyl to DSD, he could sell them another user-installlable A/D card.

Couldn’t convince him!
He has a point Jim. The DAC8P card has a single ESS9008, or the newest DA8P a ESS9028 chip, which has 8 DAC channels on one chip. Its eight outputs are individually buffered to the card outputs. The eight channel NADAC has eight ESS9008 (I don't know if there's a upgraded NADAC yet to the ESS9028) with each chips eight outputs wired in parallel. That provides a theoretical 6-9 dB improvement in noise, and bragging rights. Other than that, you're correct. It's a repackaged HAPI MB and two or eight DA8P's in a milled aluminum box. Also an extra cost option of that tank of a power supply.

Last edited by tailspn; 15th August 2018 at 06:57 PM..
Old 15th August 2018
  #315
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Yes, here is the link.
YouTube

Nice to see the inside of the Nadac, gosh looks like a Hapi card in there! Who would have thought?
Thanks for the link David! The stereo guys here should be wetting their jeans over the video pictured ZBASE product board. That's a DSP heavy stereo something or other if I ever saw one!

EDIT: I take it back; counting up the Input coupling caps it appears to be a 4 channel input, and stereo output?
Attached Thumbnails
HAPI, Son of Horus-zbase.jpg  
Old 15th August 2018
  #316
Gear Maniac
 

Yep, 4 channels input, stereo out. Large capability onboard processing!
Attached Thumbnails
HAPI, Son of Horus-zbase2.jpg  
Old 15th August 2018
  #317
Gear Addict
 
c1ferrari's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by bwanajim View Post
Of course it’s same as the Hapi/Horus cards...

A buddy of mine is a high end hi-fi dealer. A while back we were having lunch and talking about interesting products he could carry. I suggested that he could carry the Hapi with premium D/A installed. Same sound as the NADAC but under $5k. He scoffed, saying that the NADAC would obviously sound better as it was made for hi-fi. I explained we are using Hapi for tracking and mastering. How is a DAC made for domestic use going to improve on that?

Audiophiles are always talking about hearing what mastering engineers hear. Well, why not just use a mastering grade DAC? Then, I explained, if customers want to archive their vinyl to DSD, he could sell them another user-installlable A/D card.

Couldn’t convince him!
TinyURL.com - shorten that long URL into a tiny URL

from confluence.merging.com
Old 15th August 2018
  #318
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
Yep, 4 channels input, stereo out. Large capability onboard processing!
Got to be a ravenna monitor controller or something similar. Market is screaming for that.
Old 15th August 2018
  #319
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Quote:
Originally Posted by c1ferrari View Post
So, essentially, no sonic differences, just features. I use a Hapi in 8ch DA mode to power my LX521's, when its not doing its recording duties.
Old 15th August 2018
  #320
Gear Addict
 
c1ferrari's Avatar
 

Hi David,

The sonics of the Merging converters are exceptional, albeit the NADAC may spec-out somewhat better along specific electrical parameters.

That's very clever what you're accomplishing with your Linkwitz monitors...the Hapi is acting as a crossover, if I comprehend correctly?

On another note, have/has you/anyone heard anything more about the new run of Merging DA converters? Tailspn may have alluded to it in
post 314. I believe the current run is 11.
Old 15th August 2018
  #321
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by c1ferrari View Post
On another note, have/has you/anyone heard anything more about the new run of Merging DA converters? Tailspn may have alluded to it in
post 314. I believe the current run is 11.
Hi Sam,

The new DA8P Merging board incorporates the new ESS9028 DAC chip, and additionally adds a local crystal oscillator neighboring the DAC chip. If you study the Claude Pt 2 interview (thanks ljudatervinning and David), there's a lot of attention being paid to clock distribution and fidelity. This new board reduces bit clock jitter to the picosecond region, and according to Claude, allows the technical advantages of the new ESS9028 Pro to be realized.

In comparing the original to this new Rev 11 board, I sense less shrillness and crunchies in massed strings and female voices, and less shrillness in solo female voice.
Old 15th August 2018
  #322
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by c1ferrari View Post
That's very clever what you're accomplishing with your Linkwitz monitors...the Hapi is acting as a crossover, if I comprehend correctly?
Not quite. The xover is implemented with impusle response convolution inside JRiver, which feeds the split 8 channels of digital audio to Hapi. The IR wavs of the filters were obtained from Acourate. Hapi is just the 8 channel DA on the output of JRiver.
Old 15th August 2018
  #323
Gear Addict
 
c1ferrari's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
Hi Sam,

The new DA8P Merging board incorporates the new ESS9028 DAC chip, and additionally adds a local crystal oscillator neighboring the DAC chip. If you study the Claude Pt 2 interview (thanks ljudatervinning and David), there's a lot of attention being paid to clock distribution and fidelity. This new board reduces bit clock jitter to the picosecond region, and according to Claude, allows the technical advantages of the new ESS9028 Pro to be realized.

In comparing the original to this new Rev 11 board, I sense less shrillness and crunchies in massed strings and female voices, and less shrillness in solo female voice.
Thanks, Tailspn -- that sounds really good...especially, that last paragraph.
I'm trying to demo/purchase the Rev 11 board and am currently using Rev 10.

Last edited by c1ferrari; 15th August 2018 at 11:55 PM.. Reason: misspelling
Old 16th August 2018
  #324
Gear Addict
 
c1ferrari's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Not quite. The xover is implemented with impusle response convolution inside JRiver, which feeds the split 8 channels of digital audio to Hapi. The IR wavs of the filters were obtained from Acourate. Hapi is just the 8 channel DA on the output of JRiver.
I should love to try this and determine, objectively and subjectively, whether sonic improvements can be achieved when compared to my analog xover setup.
Thanks for sharing.
Old 5th September 2018
  #325
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MrChick's Avatar
 

Hi guys,

I´m testing a Hapi with Logic 10.4.1, High Sierra and latest Rabenna drivers from merging. I´m getting a latency of 16ms at 256. This is normal? What latencies are you getting? I need to record and the latency is too much in my opinion...

Thanks for helping!
Old 5th September 2018
  #326
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrChick View Post
Hi guys,

I´m testing a Hapi with Logic 10.4.1, High Sierra and latest Rabenna drivers from merging. I´m getting a latency of 16ms at 256. This is normal? What latencies are you getting? I need to record and the latency is too much in my opinion...

Thanks for helping!
I am using Sierra, but usually run a Latency of 64 smpl. Can you even run at 256 smpl in High Sierra?
Old 5th September 2018
  #327
Gear Addict
 
MrChick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljudatervinning View Post
I am using Sierra, but usually run a Latency of 64 smpl. Can you even run at 256 smpl in High Sierra?
The 256 is the Logic buffer. The Hapi and Rabenna latency is 32smpl.

I wonder if there something wrong in my system. What buffer has your logic and what roundtrip do you get?
Old 5th September 2018
  #328
Gear Nut
 

I don’t use Logic, so I could be totaly wrong here.

If Logic has 256 samples latency, round trip latency would be 512 samples. 512/44100=11,6 ms.
VAD Ravenna has 32 each way, 64/44100=1,5 ms
Hapi Ravenna 64 samples (default?)=128/44100=2,9ms
Hapi AD converter 16, DA converter 38 gives 54/44100=1,2ms
Total (512+64+128+54)/44100=17,2ms

In all Logic contributes to 11,6ms HAPI 5,6ms.

Does it make sense?

Last edited by ljudatervinning; 5th September 2018 at 10:17 PM.. Reason: Clarifying calculation with more details
Old 5th September 2018
  #329
Gear Addict
 
MrChick's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ljudatervinning View Post
I don’t use Logic, so I could be totaly wrong here.
If Logic has 256 samples each way and Hapi 32 each way, (256+256+32+32)/44100=576/44100=13ms if you use 44100Hz sampling frequency.
Thank you. My logic is reporting 16ms at 48KHz so maybe my system is getting extra latency...
Old 5th September 2018
  #330
Gear Nut
 

In your case at 48000Hz;

Logic: 512/48000=10,7ms
Hapi:246/48000=5,1ms
Total: 758/48000=15,8ms

In Hapi you can lower to 16 samples 32/48000=0,7ms
In VAD Ravenna to 16 samples: =0,7ms
Hapi total with AD/DA: 32+32+16+48=2,7ms

As I see it, your bottle neck is not the driver but the latency in Logic. Try lowering that first.
What did you get with your previous sound card?

If you need even shorter latencies, move to 96k or 192k
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