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Royer Users Ribbon Microphones
Old 6th March 2014
  #1
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mixkitchen's Avatar
 

Royer Users

Hello,
is anyone using an SF24 regularly? If so, for what - mains, spot?
Also, in what application have you found that you can't beat an R-122?

Look forward to hearing some creative uses of these wonderful mics.
Old 7th March 2014
  #2
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SF12 all the time. Mostly for choirs. Sounds wonderful.

D.
Old 7th March 2014
  #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
SF12 all the time. Mostly for choirs. Sounds wonderful.

D.
Ditto that. I had one out in the hall a bit for congregational singing at a Christmas thing, and liked it better (as a main mic) than the Blumlein Fat Heads (duh!) that were in close for a bit more stage presence. The orchestra (platform area) and choir (120 seats around the orch) blend was lovely... and the congregation was well represented. Fat Heads acquitted themselves rather well... just not quite THAT well... it's (the SF12) borrowed. Wish it was mine.

HB
Old 7th March 2014
  #4
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All the time in my studio for WW and brasses, perc, and lots of other things--even as a different sound when layering vocals. Just the other day as a room mic on steel string acoustic. It has ended up being one of my best mic purchases, and definitely worth the high price tag.
So glad I got the 24 instead of the 12--longer cable runs and noise floor not an issue, impedance matching not an issue, although I'm sure the 12 is a wonderful mic as well.
I think as an instrumental mic, it might be one of the best choices out there.
Keith
Keith Felch | Music Educator, Woodwind Performer, Recording Artist
Old 7th March 2014
  #5
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Sf12 is used as a solo spot mic very often here.
Every single big voice has been nothing but very happy with the sound, even when getting really close in a orchestral setup.

Our sf1 and sf12 mics also work excellently as woodwind spots, brass spots in an orchestra. Or string spots in a chamber music ensemble.

A modified decca tree with sf1 and sf12 also tends to work really well in the right conditions.
Old 7th March 2014
  #6
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Thanks for your replies. Yannick, can you elaborate on your 'modified Decca Tree' arrangement?
Old 7th March 2014
  #7
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Well, it is something that starts looking like a blend between a main array, and spots on the front first violins, altos and celli.

Wide AB, Sf1s left and right on the first violins and celli. A sf 12 in the middle, a bit forward, on second violins and violas.

Aty adjusting the vertical angle on the sf12, you get more or less reach into the rest of the orchestra. You can also adjust the width of the sf12 to taste.

Quite a nice main array, when the hall is not so great, or when you really want to depend on the spots for the rest of the orchestra.

Of course, you get a really great string sound as well heh
Old 7th March 2014
  #8
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That's some really great info right there! Thanks Yannick - I'll be giving that a try.
Has anyone tried using a Blumlein as a replacement for the ' whole band around an omni' thing?
Old 9th March 2014
  #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixkitchen View Post
That's some really great info right there! Thanks Yannick - I'll be giving that a try.
Has anyone tried using a Blumlein as a replacement for the ' whole band around an omni' thing?
I have used a DS 60 in the middle of a group of "bluegrass" jamsters. I usually run it as Blumlein MS but a beauty of the DS 60 is that it can be modified in post. If you are interested I might be able to find an old pull with the DS 60 and set it up as a Blumlein. E-mail me.

I am running down to record the "bluegrass" jamsters Monday with a pair of Recording Tools MRP-01's ribbon mics. (Recording Tools - Bändchen Mikrofone) I tried them in another array last week. But the secret with this group is to be in the center as they sit in a circle around a table. The Recording Tools ribbons seem pretty good with one outing. I want to hear them Blumlein on Monday.

Cheers
Old 9th March 2014
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
I have used a DS 60 in the middle of a group of "bluegrass" jamsters. I usually run it as Blumlein MS but a beauty of the DS 60 is that it can be modified in post. If you are interested I might be able to find an old pull with the DS 60 and set it up as a Blumlein. E-mail me.

I am running down to record the "bluegrass" jamsters Monday with a pair of Recording Tools MRP-01's ribbon mics. (Recording Tools - Bändchen Mikrofone) I tried them in another array last week. But the secret with this group is to be in the center as they sit in a circle around a table. The Recording Tools ribbons seem pretty good with one outing. I want to hear them Blumlein on Monday.

Cheers
Thanks. Do you plan on matrixing this in any way for a stereo result?
I've done some stuff before with a group around a soundfield st450. I used B2X processing to down mix the B Format to UHJ stereo.
Any ideas how Blumlein 'surround' would work in this sense?
Old 9th March 2014
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
A modified decca tree with sf1 and sf12 also tends to work really well in the right conditions.
Nice! Love to hear a sound clip.
Old 9th March 2014
  #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixkitchen View Post
Thanks. Do you plan on matrixing this in any way for a stereo result?
I've done some stuff before with a group around a soundfield st450. I used B2X processing to down mix the B Format to UHJ stereo.
Any ideas how Blumlein 'surround' would work in this sense?
MK - When it is Blumlein it is stereo. The fellows who are LR appear as RF in the stereo image. When the group encircles the mic it is Blumlein or Blumlein MS depending on whether you believe the front of the field is directly in front of a mic or in between two mics. The DS 60 itself is the same for each: crossed fi8's with the rear channels phase inverted.
Old 10th March 2014
  #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixkitchen View Post
That's some really great info right there! Thanks Yannick - I'll be giving that a try.
Has anyone tried using a Blumlein as a replacement for the ' whole band around an omni' thing?
Check out this page on the Royer site from a radio show in 2004 featuring the Wailin' Jenny's:

Royer Session Photos - Wailin' Jennys

Listen to the audio samples and look at the graphic of where the mic was placed. Just a single SF24 except for one track. I think this was an important milestone in getting some of us to think about what could be done with "surrounded Blumlein" and a nice stereo ribbon mic a few years ago (wow... 2004!... can't believe it's been that long!).

Of course it helps to have talent like that around the mic, too....
Old 10th March 2014
  #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foldedpath View Post
... and look at the graphic of where the mic was placed.
A very confused and misleading graphic to be sure. What do the arrows mean exactly. Why three arrows on R-122.

Here is one scenario.

Two loud singers at L and R of one of the in-phase quadrants, this puts the soft singer in the centre of the other in-phase quadrant, but out of phase with the first. This then puts the Cajon in an out of phase quadrant, and god knows what the R-122 is doing.

Nothing else seems to make sense. One wonders if anyone vetted that graphic before publishing on a website. People will be scratching heads.
Old 11th March 2014
  #15
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Yes, I'm scratching my head as to how this is working.
Old 11th March 2014
  #16
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Also, boojum. Can you examine LR and RF?
Sorry if this is obvious.
Old 11th March 2014
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixkitchen View Post
Also, boojum. Can you examine LR and RF?
Sorry if this is obvious.
MK - I am not sure that I understand the question. But, let me lay out the Blumlein "surround" as I have used it. Regardless of how we arrive at the Blumlein array, two ribbon fig8's or four cards, we will have four tracks from it: LF, RF, LR and RR. In the ribbons situation we have two tracks, one for each mic, which become four tracks when we invert the phase of each. In the ribbon case a duplicated track when phase inverted becomes the channel "in the back" but on the opposite side. Thus, LF's backside is RR. Likewise RF's backside is LR. In a normal situation there are only performers in front and audience in back. In the "surround" situation there is sound for 360 degrees. Now LR and LF blend and come out on the L channels of your stereo while RF and RR come out on the right channel of your stereo. They are the left and right sides respectively.

OK?
Old 11th March 2014
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixkitchen View Post
Thanks. Do you plan on matrixing this in any way for a stereo result?
I've done some stuff before with a group around a soundfield st450. I used B2X processing to down mix the B Format to UHJ stereo.
Any ideas how Blumlein 'surround' would work in this sense?
I did not run the MRP-01's as Blumlein last week of the Mk8's as Blumlein this week. I will set up the MRP-01 ribbons as Blumlein/Blumlein MS for next week. I will post samples. Only because of all the wads of money you guys are throwing at me. ;o) LOL

Actually I am happy to help any way I can. GS has been good to me and "One hand washes the other."
Old 11th March 2014
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
MK - I am not sure that I understand the question. But, let me lay out the Blumlein "surround" as I have used it. Regardless of how we arrive at the Blumlein array, two ribbon fig8's or four cards, we will have four tracks from it: LF, RF, LR and RR. In the ribbons situation we have two tracks, one for each mic, which become four tracks when we invert the phase of each. In the ribbon case a duplicated track when phase inverted becomes the channel "in the back" but on the opposite side. Thus, LF's backside is RR. Likewise RF's backside is LR. In a normal situation there are only performers in front and audience in back. In the "surround" situation there is sound for 360 degrees. Now LR and LF blend and come out on the L channels of your stereo while RF and RR come out on the right channel of your stereo. They are the left and right sides respectively.

OK?
Sorry, predictive text turned 'explain' into 'examine'.
That makes perfect sense to me now!
Thank you very much! Can't wait to try this.
Old 11th March 2014
  #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
I did not run the MRP-01's as Blumlein last week of the Mk8's as Blumlein this week. I will set up the MRP-01 ribbons as Blumlein/Blumlein MS for next week. I will post samples. Only because of all the wads of money you guys are throwing at me. ;o) LOL

Actually I am happy to help any way I can. GS has been good to me and "One hand washes the other."

I look forward to hearing these.
Thanks.
Old 11th March 2014
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixkitchen View Post
Sorry, predictive text turned 'explain' into 'examine'.
That makes perfect sense to me now!
Thank you very much! Can't wait to try this.
MK, fortunately for both of us this is not rocket science. Blumlein is well-known. Rolo46 on this board is an ardent proponent of this array, and MS, and somewhat of an authority on the science and use of the arrays. I would defer to him on any of this. But, it is easy to set up, use and decode. And for those impossible situations where the group is in a circle the Blumlein is an excellent solution. It is also excellent on regular groups. Rolo46 likes Blumlein MS as one mic is pointed at the center of the sound and that way there is no off-axis coloration. My seat-of-the-pants guess is that ribbons and rectangulars suffer less from off-axis coloration as they have such a nice wide horizontal field of clear sound. MS Stereo/Quad : Pearl DS 60
Old 11th March 2014
  #22
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This is all really interesting to me.
I've got a session this weekend with a 4 piece vocal ensemble. I'm just the 'babysitting' engineer because they are bringing their own guy, but if he doesn't mind then I'll try to put up the SF24 and the ST 450 along with his mics.
Boojum, I'd love to hear what that Pearl (wow that's expensive!) and your placement skills can do - any clips?
I'll post something from this weekend if I'm allowed.
Old 12th March 2014
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mixkitchen View Post
This is all really interesting to me.
I've got a session this weekend with a 4 piece vocal ensemble. I'm just the 'babysitting' engineer because they are bringing their own guy, but if he doesn't mind then I'll try to put up the SF24 and the ST 450 along with his mics.
Boojum, I'd love to hear what that Pearl (wow that's expensive!) and your placement skills can do - any clips?
I'll post something from this weekend if I'm allowed.
I am posting a short clip (Is It True What They Say About Dixie?) from the nosebleed venue. Understand that this is a VFW hall on a Monday when they serve up cheap burgers and music. Some musicians are good, some are better. It is almost always fun. This was in April, 2012, and the crowd was pretty loud that night. The mic is centered over the table that the guys sit around to play. It is Blumlein MS with Back and Right mics phase inverted.

I did not buy the mic new but in new condition from a board member who gave me a good deal on a good mic. The mic is out on loan now and you know it will be a happy day when it shows up on my doorstep again.
Attached Files

16 T05_ch001.mp3 (5.17 MB, 208 views)

Old 12th March 2014
  #24
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I love it!!!
Old 12th March 2014
  #25
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Sounds wonderful, like to hear a sound clip.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x1g...yut-tope_music
Old 12th March 2014
  #26
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Here is a track the utilizes the SF12 for choral mains and SF24 for brass. The 12 was amped with Pueblo Audio pres (along with the CMC62 outriggers). All other mics went into Broadhurst Gardens or the built-in RME pres. The 24 is peeking over the top of the gobo.

Rich
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...20Faithful.mp3



Old 12th March 2014
  #27
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Hmmm, let's have a look at this.

Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
In the ribbon case a duplicated track when phase inverted becomes the channel "in the back" but on the opposite side. Thus, LF's backside is RR. Likewise RF's backside is LR.
But with a Blumlein mic like the subject of this thread you cannot separate the front and back lobes into 4 separate channels.

If you add the "left" fig 8 to its reverse phase you get nothing, if you add it to the reversed phase right fig 8 you get a rotated array which still has to be combined with the main signals.

Not sure I can see how a Blumlein mic can ever get surround anything. All you can ever do is have two in-phase 90deg fields of view that are opposite to each other positionally and opposite phase. If you put anything in the two out of phase quadrants you will get nonsense.
Old 12th March 2014
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
But with a Blumlein mic like the subject of this thread you cannot separate the front and back lobes into 4 separate channels.

If you add the "left" fig 8 to its reverse phase you get nothing, if you add it to the reversed phase right fig 8 you get a rotated array which still has to be combined with the main signals.

Not sure I can see how a Blumlein mic can ever get surround anything. All you can ever do is have two in-phase 90deg fields of view that are opposite to each other positionally and opposite phase. If you put anything in the two out of phase quadrants you will get nonsense.
I may be wrong about this, so someone correct me if that's the case. But I think your example of phase cancellation would only apply if the sources on each side of the ribbon were identical. Like a generated sine wave at the same frequency, amplitude, and distance, for example. That's not what happens when musicians surround a stereo mic in Blumlein configuration. The sound sources are all different, so you don't get that kind of correlated phase cancellation. Or something like that.

In actual practice, I've used a stereo mic in Blumlien this way a few times; not a SF12 but an AKG C426b, so the capsule physics are different. But it does work to represent the nearby sources surrounding the mic in a useful way. It's not my first choice as a mic technique, but sometimes it's the best way to deal with a tight space.
Old 12th March 2014
  #29
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From my experiments with folding B Format down to UHJ stereo the results are a kind of 'fold-around' stereo soundstage. Certainly not a natural, immersive 'surround' image but an interestingly wide stereo rendering of what was happening all around the mic. I used B2X processing

Ambisonic Studio | B2X Plug-in Suite

which I'm guessing is doing some complex phase inversion type voodoo. BTW, can any one explain what it actually is doing in terms that a non rocket scientist can understand?
I have yet to try the boojum method of 4 tracks from 2 with a blumlein recording but I imagine the results will be somewhat similar.
Old 12th March 2014
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Foldedpath View Post
I may be wrong about this, so someone correct me if that's the case. But I think your example of phase cancellation would only apply if the sources on each side of the ribbon were identical.
Yes, you can put sources in the two opposite, in-phase quadrants and as long as they do not coherently cancel you are OK, which is the case nearly all the time. But you cannot put any sources in either of the two out of phase quadrants and you cannot mix one Blumlein array with another rotated at 90deg because you will be mixing in and out of phase signals together for the same sources on the same side of the stereo picture.

So it cannot be used as a surround mic with sources in a circle. All you can do is put sources in two 90deg angles of view opposite each other, ie the in-phase quadrants. See this.

I recorded the Ten Tenors Colours CD with 5 tenors in each in-phase quadrant of a Blumlein array. I put the piano in one of the out of phase quadrants but spotted it heavily. The singers were beautifully blended, but the piano without its spotter sounded very weird indeed.

Bob Katz documented his I-Ching CD setup somewhere, where he and the producers (Chesky's) put loudspeakers and some instruments in the out of phase quadrants of a Blumlein array for compositional effect. I have this CD and those bits sound weird, but somewhat artistic.
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