The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Kudos to Mr. Straus... (DIY wide cardioid) Condenser Microphones
Old 18th February 2014
  #61
Lives for gear
 
didier.brest's Avatar
 

If each mic is plugged on a preamp input, the directivity can be adjusted contiuously from omni to cardioid either ahead the recorder, by mixing both tracks, or after recording by digital post processing. Could be nice...
Old 18th February 2014
  #62
Lives for gear
 
king2070lplaya's Avatar
As I understand it, the technique did come about before wide cardioids, specifically the Neumann 143, had been developed. I've heard from others that Strauss was not a fan of the Schoeps sound.

When I asked Straus student Andreas Neubronner about the technique, specifically the coupling of the microphones, he told me that Straus usually only coupled the mics together in an effort to save channels on his mixer for large ensemble sessions, but that when recording chamber music he would use 4 mic preamp channels for the packet, as usual.
Old 19th February 2014
  #63
I use something similar, but in a different way:
cardioids in NOS position, with AB omnis just in front, closely spaced (around 20cm) and slightly angled outwards.
Photo is this setup (with SM81's and OM1's), however the omnis are a bit in front of the cards, which they should'nt -- but it is basically the same.
Omnis usually mixed in at around -8dB.

I have found this to create a very realistic sound image, both in terms of dynamics and stereo spread.
No noticable phase issues, and the detailed sharpness of the cards with the true bass bloom of the omnis gives a very pleasant sound.

I will upload a sample tomorrow, don't have audio on this pc here...
Attached Thumbnails
Kudos to Mr. Straus... (DIY wide cardioid)-mic-setup-01.jpg   Kudos to Mr. Straus... (DIY wide cardioid)-mic-setup-02.jpg  
Old 19th February 2014
  #64
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by apotheosis View Post
I use something similar, but in a different way:
Omnis usually mixed in at around -8dB.

Straus used cardioid and omni 1:1, although one has to remark the output of the KM83 and KM84 were not 100% equal. If you would do that with your set-up, you would get quite some trouble with combfilter effects.
Old 21st February 2014
  #65
Gear Head
 

Can LDC's be used in this set up?
Old 21st February 2014
  #66
Lives for gear
Conceptually I'm trying to pin down the reason for creating a Straus Packet out of 2 mics. Is it to save on the expense of buying a wide cardioid, or is there something inherent in the combination of the cardioid and omni that gives you the best of both ie the directionality of the former with the bass extension and ambience retrieval of the latter ? There would seem to be 2 parameters at play which the S.P aims at optimizing: frequency range and directionality. Your typical cardioid has less bass response below around 40Hz than a typical omni. Your typical cardioid has of course a more directional pickup than an omni. Thus the combination of the pair as S.P theoretically gives you a bigger bite at both of these apples...deeper bass and a wider pickup pattern. My question is, is that bite ultimately the same size as simply digging into the pocket and buying a wide cardioid ? In other words, would a CM3 give you the same advantages as a S.P.... and at a quite modest cost ?
Old 21st February 2014
  #67
Lives for gear
 
pkautzsch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Conceptually I'm trying to pin down the reason for creating a Straus Packet out of 2 mics. Is it to save on the expense of buying a wide cardioid, or is there something inherent in the combination of the cardioid and omni that gives you the best of both ie the directionality of the former with the bass extension and ambience retrieval of the latter ? There would seem to be 2 parameters at play which the S.P aims at optimizing: frequency range and directionality. Your typical cardioid has less bass response below around 40Hz than a typical omni. Your typical cardioid has of course a more directional pickup than an omni. Thus the combination of the pair as S.P theoretically gives you a bigger bite at both of these apples...deeper bass and a wider pickup pattern. My question is, is that bite ultimately the same size as simply digging into the pocket and buying a wide cardioid ? In other words, would a CM3 give you the same advantages as a S.P.... and at a quite modest cost ?
I'm sure this has come up earlier in this old thread.
With two separate mics, and with enough channels, you have control over the omni/cardioid ratio. You don't just have a wide cardioid, but everything from omni to cardioid.
A good application would be a live recording when you set up without audience and don't know how much the audience will change the sound. It's easy to dial in a little more omni when it sounds too dry.
Old 21st February 2014
  #68
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Conceptually I'm trying to pin down the reason for creating a Straus Packet out of 2 mics. Is it to save on the expense of buying a wide cardioid, or is there something inherent in the combination of the cardioid and omni that gives you the best of both ie the directionality of the former with the bass extension and ambience retrieval of the latter ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by pkautzsch View Post
I'm sure this has come up earlier in this old thread.
With two separate mics, and with enough channels, you have control over the omni/cardioid ratio. You don't just have a wide cardioid, but everything from omni to cardioid.
A good application would be a live recording when you set up without audience and don't know how much the audience will change the sound. It's easy to dial in a little more omni when it sounds too dry.
The reason was a very simple one. In that time when Straus used this technique there were no manufacturers making a small diaphragm wide cardioids. At least not Neumann. When Neumann came on the market with KM143 Straus used that microphone instead.
Old 3rd August 2014
  #69
Gear Addict
 
GIACOMO-_'s Avatar
 

Attached Thumbnails
Kudos to Mr. Straus... (DIY wide cardioid)-strauss.jpg  
Old 26th February 2015
  #70
Lives for gear
 

Any reason not to use an omni
combined with a hypercardiod
or fig 8 for even more possibilities?
Old 26th February 2015
  #71
Lives for gear
 
boojum's Avatar
Omni + figure-8 = MS
Old 26th February 2015
  #72
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
Omni + figure-8 = MS
Not really MS as I was talking about 2 spaced pairs of omni +
forward facing hypercardiod or
fig 8. With Omni
+ fig8 it would be the equivalent
of the left channel's only of 2 spaced side-facing MS arrays with the ability to decode to spaced pairs of any mic pattern between omni and figure 8 (equivalent of 2 spaced Josephson C700A's).

Last edited by Folkie; 26th February 2015 at 09:51 AM.. Reason: clarification
Old 26th February 2015
  #73
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
I was asking about omni +
forward facing hypercardiod or
fig 8.
Omni + cardioid only gives you a variable range from omni to cardioid pattern. Omni + figure of 8 gives you the whole range from omni-hypo-cardioid-hyper-figure of 8. Straus used km83/84 because that was his only way to create the wide cardioid until Neumann offered the Km143.

For best sound a single wide cardioid membrane solution is to be preferred over a combination of two units, since you are not bothered with comb-filter effects, obstructing the back vent port and double frontal reflection area which makes it physically a rectangular shaped large diaphragm microphone.

Last edited by Adorno; 26th February 2015 at 10:03 PM..
Old 26th February 2015
  #74
Lives for gear
 
pkautzsch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Folkie View Post
Any reason not to use an omni
combined with a hypercardiod
or fig 8 for even more possibilities?
Gives you omni, wide, cardioid, hyper, fig-8, and anything in between.
Schoeps Polarflex comes to mind.
Old 27th February 2015
  #75
Lives for gear
Old 27th February 2015
  #76
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
this seems to be stretching the 'Packet' (sandwich ?) concept a little far...see at 0:56 to 1:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttOR4ADg62c&spfreload=1
Of course it is always the endresult what counts, but putting three microphones on top of eachother will obstruct the sound waves in such way that the reflective areas of housings cause sound pressure build up. This will cause unpredictable anomalies of the directional patterns and create uncontrollable peaks and dips in frequency behaviour. Especially on 90 degrees (side ways) the large area of the microphone bodies cause extra pressure build up, the germans call "Druckstau". There is also a risk of creating earthloops connecting the housings together.

Last edited by Adorno; 27th February 2015 at 11:45 PM..
Old 27th February 2015
  #77
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Adorno View Post
Of course it is always the endresult what counts, but putting three microphones on top of eachother will obstruct the sound waves in such way that the reflective areas of housings cause sound pressure build up. This will cause inpredictable anomalies of the directional patterns and create uncontrollable peaks and dips in frequency behaviour. Especially on 90 degrees you get what the germans call Druckstau. There is also a risk of creating earthloops connecting the housings together.
I notice this particular SACD recording was destined for both 5.0 surround and stereo, and thus perhaps the mic arrays had to provide for both delivery types, although the end credits state that independent arrays were used for each ? Can anyone identify the mics in use...maybe it was an MS array with an added omni for more bass extension ?
Old 27th February 2015
  #78
Deleted User
Guest
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
this seems to be stretching the 'Packet' (sandwich ?) concept a little far...see at 0:56 to 1:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ttOR4ADg62c&spfreload=1
Placing microphones on top of eachother as a triple "straus-packet" may cause unwanted directional irregularities for both horizontal and vertical plane, a single and freely placed microphone is not exposed to.

A similar effect but more controlled can be realised when applying the DPA "sausage" APE type L110C pressure build up device. The L110C is a pressure equalizer like the APE30/40/50 mm balls and is shaped in a sausage form, 11cm long and a diameter of approx. 2.5cm. Depending on how it is angled, it causes a gentle rise either for frontal vertical or frontal horizontal incoming waves with approx. 2.5 dB peaking at 3 kHz, very comparable with the concept of rectangular capsules.

The more microphones you stick close together, the more each individual microphone will be influenced by the neighbours because of area pressure build up and obstruction of sound waves.
Old 6 days ago
  #79
Given that this seems to be one of the main Straus Packet discussions on the forum, I thought I'd add to it (albeit after a few years) rather than create a parallel thread...

I've been researching some of the work by the Tritonus team for the ECM New Series releases and notice that Straus Packets are (still) heavily employed by them -- see photos below for a couple of examples.

Without rehashing some of what has already been thoroughly discussed earlier in this thread, I'm curious to hear more from any currently active Straus enthusiasts who favor this technique. I can only assume that, in these days of readily available and excellent wide cardioids, the preference is due in large part to the additional control and blending options. This is what I'd like to hear more about, if anyone would care to share their thoughts, any clips, etc. Clearly Peter Laenger, Markus Heiland, et. al. continue to use the technique for good reasons.
Attached Thumbnails
Kudos to Mr. Straus... (DIY wide cardioid)-heiland.jpg   Kudos to Mr. Straus... (DIY wide cardioid)-laenger.jpg  
Old 3 days ago
  #80
Lives for gear
 

Comb filter city.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
qoqo / High end
3
VO-Guy / So much gear, so little time
2
Kenny Gioia / So much gear, so little time
3
cdog / So much gear, so little time
0
David Herbert / So much gear, so little time
10

Forum Jump
Forum Jump