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String orchestra Condenser Microphones
Old 18th November 2013
  #1
Gear Nut
 

String orchestra

Y have to record a cd of a string orchestra with 13 musicians.
Mics are: pair schoeps mk2s
Pair schoeps mk4
One akg 414
Sennheiser mkh 30

My initial idea is to use mk2s as main, and one schoeps mk4 for first violins, another for second. Mkh 30 for viola and 414 for cellos and double bass.

I would like to know your opinión

Evisto

Last edited by evisto; 18th November 2013 at 07:35 PM.. Reason: Error writting
Old 18th November 2013
  #2
Lives for gear
 
JonesH's Avatar
What music, what room and what goal?
Old 18th November 2013
  #3
Is this a concert or session? What kind of space will you be in? Is this a classical piece or a pop music overdub? Will you have time for a good sound check?

If it's a classical piece in a nice, quiet acoustic, start with a single pair on a single stand - 13 musicians can be nicely captured this way. Move the pair around until you get a nice balance and blend of musicians and the space.

Near coincident cardioids, or a small AB pair of omni's will work very well in this application.

If, when you reach that sweet spot, you still feel that something might be lacking when you get it to the studio for post production, put spot mic's on those things you feel may need it.

Otherwise, if you are not going to get a good soundcheck, and/or there are possible issues with the space, your plan will work well from a CYA perspective.
Old 18th November 2013
  #4
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobAnderson View Post
Is this a concert or session? What kind of space will you be in? Is this a classical piece or a pop music overdub? Will you have time for a good sound check?

If it's a classical piece in a nice, quiet acoustic, start with a single pair on a single stand - 13 musicians can be nicely captured this way. Move the pair around until you get a nice balance and blend of musicians and the space.

Near coincident cardioids, or a small AB pair of omni's will work very well in this application.

If, when you reach that sweet spot, you still feel that something might be lacking when you get it to the studio for post production, put spot mic's on those things you feel may need it.

Otherwise, if you are not going to get a good soundcheck, and/or there are possible issues with the space, your plan will work well from a CYA perspective.
Thanks

It will be a recording sesión for a cd in a good acoustics church and good classical music

Evisto
Old 18th November 2013
  #5
Spots aren't a bad idea if this is a CD project. The church may be nice, but is it in a rural setting or in a city?

If it's the latter, I'd say spots are a necessity.
Old 18th November 2013
  #6
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by RobAnderson View Post
Spots aren't a bad idea if this is a CD project. The church may be nice, but is it in a rural setting or in a city?

If it's the latter, I'd say spots are a necessity.
It is a quite place, I would like to know if you have any other combination between the spots and the main pair

Evisto
Old 18th November 2013
  #7
My only other thought is that if the church is very reverberant, you may be better off using cardioids for your main pair.

That is something that will very much depend on the space.
Old 18th November 2013
  #8
Lives for gear
I regularly recorded a string orch of 30
I never spotted
How can you ?
I MS, its in a busy town,they produce plenty of level and bravura
Roger
Old 19th November 2013
  #9
Probably wouldn't spot a string orchestra myself. Even for a CD project. Quartet, yes, but in that case things are more likely to be out of balance and players like the closer sound.

Personally, my inclination would be to use ORTF mk4 and the mk2 3-4 feet to either side as outriggers.
Old 19th November 2013
  #10
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
I regularly recorded a string orch of 30
I never spotted
How can you ?
I MS, its in a busy town,they produce plenty of level and bravura
Roger
Hi Roger

I'd not spot mic a thirteen piece - too small of a group for that.

However, I live in NYC - we have a different definition of "ambient noise" than most places. I've had recordings where the traffic was louder than the ensemble in the mains. Only way to save the session is spot mic's.

Main pair gets the sound. This can (and should) be all that is needed.

Spot mic's cover your arse They do no harm, and can always NOT be used. However, if you later wish you had them for whatever reason in post, if you did not record them, they will not be there.

If you have the time, the option, and there is nothing to worry about wrt sight lines of an audience, why would you not set them up?

One problem with the plan outlined above is that there are not enough spot mic's. Unless it is Baroque music, you will not get away with celli and bass sharing a single mic.
Old 19th November 2013
  #11
Lives for gear
Why overcomplicate a recording Rob?
The conductor is the arbiter of balance and performance
Render his POV.
If you record in noisy venues then spotting and grouping are no doubt essential,does the audience enjoy these locations?
Will the event manager allow multi miking?
Does the band like the venue?
All these are important issues.
Anyhow, I enjoy sound perspective,it seems fewer are in favour of a natural presentation now.
Roger
Old 19th November 2013
  #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Why overcomplicate a recording Rob?
The conductor is the arbiter of balance and performance
Render his POV.
If you record in noisy venues then spotting and grouping are no doubt essential,does the audience enjoy these locations?
Will the event manager allow multi miking?
Does the band like the venue?
All these are important issues.
Anyhow, I enjoy sound perspective,it seems fewer are in favour of a natural presentation now.
Roger
From my understanding, this is not a concert recording, but a recording session. There may or may not be expectations on the part of the producer when you get to post production. I'd rather have the options to tweak presence and balance if this is requested at the mix stage; otherwise there is the mute button.

The expectations for a commercial CD and those of an archival concert recording are somewhat different (and so is the rate). If I am being hired to do a session, I feel it my job to provide whatever the client may want, and to anticipate their needs before they realize they may want or need it.

If that means it's "overcomplicated," then I'm guilty as charged.

As a former classical performer, I am used to being "in the sound" so I'll admit my perspective on how a concert should be experienced sonically is indeed a bit warped. Sometimes a pure single-point stereophonic recording is nice. Other times it can be underwhelming...

In this case, however, I think it would be more than adequate.

YMMV
Old 19th November 2013
  #13
Deleted User
Guest
I am with Rob on this. One can say adding few mics is "overcomplicated". But putting just one pair can be called "oversimplified".

It's a recording session, not a concert. You have microphones, cables, stands and free inputs. Why not use them? There is no chance to add them later.

Microphones are not human ears, they hear in a different way. I've heard some nice sounding one-pair-recordings and many awful ones.

To evisto: your "initial idea" is absolutely right, IMO.
Old 20th November 2013
  #14
Lives for gear
Its just 13 players
However if its a commercial session, indeed ,throw in the kitchen sink
Rob illustrates a point of interest, he is a player ,his perspective is different to a listener
I was trained as a listener.
I am not a musician.
Roger
Old 20th November 2013
  #15
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Larry Elliott's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post

Rob illustrates a point of interest, he is a player ,his perspective is different to a listener
I was trained as a listener.
I am not a musician.
Roger
A VERY important difference in my view - likewise I am a trained listener.
Old 20th November 2013
  #16
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Elliott View Post
A VERY important difference in my view - likewise I am a trained listener.
I am a Musician too, I try to do It as Rob says, but I can find any modern recording just with two mics. I prefer this too, but no doy used It. Why then?

Evisto
Old 20th November 2013
  #17
Gear Addict
 
fred2bern's Avatar
 

I would try to hear and find in this church the best cardio or omni main pair, then use the other mics to spot.
Back home if you need your spots you've got them. If they are not on the tracks... too bad.
Theory is one thing, the result another one. give yourself all the chances to make it.


I'm a player when I play and a listener when I listen. By the way I do also listen when I play...
Old 20th November 2013
  #18
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by evisto View Post
I am a Musician too, I try to do It as Rob says, but I can find any modern recording just with two mics. I prefer this too, but no doy used It. Why then?

Evisto
Here's a modern archive recording (this July)
A fragment of Tippetts Concerto for double string orchestra.
Two MKH 30.
Roger
Attached Files

Nagra VI061.CLS.Tippett 2.mp3 (2.13 MB, 637 views)

Old 21st November 2013
  #19
Gear Addict
 
c1ferrari's Avatar
 

Nice, Roger
Old 21st November 2013
  #20
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Here's a modern archive recording (this July)
A fragment of Tippetts Concerto for double string orchestra.
Two MKH 30.
Roger
Very nice, thanks

Evisto
Old 21st November 2013
  #21
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by evisto View Post
Very nice, thanks

Evisto
MS?
Old 21st November 2013
  #22
Lives for gear
Of course.
Ive done a lot of string work this year.
Its one of my favourite orchestras
The quality of Brit String playing never fails to amaze.
They turn up, have a stagger through with people they have never played with before and perform to the highest of standard...
The miracle of sight reading and pro players.
Roger
Old 14th April 2014
  #23
hi Rolo, did you record this with sound devices or sonosax preamps?
Old 14th April 2014
  #24
Gear Nut
 
brhoward's Avatar
 

Roger, what was the placement and spacing like for you mkh30's?
Old 14th April 2014
  #25
Lives for gear
Its MS MKH 30/30 into a Nagra VI
12' up and directly behind the conductor in a live concert in an Edwardian Hall.
Old 1 week ago
  #26
Gear Maniac
 

?? 2 figure 8’s? Positioned how?
Old 1 week ago
  #27
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by HelenaBzg View Post
?? 2 figure 8’s? Positioned how?
I'm guessing something like this (2 pics from earlier Roger/Rolo46 submissions) ?
Attached Thumbnails
String orchestra-dsc_0004.jpg   String orchestra-rolo-46-ms-pic.jpg  
Old 1 week ago
  #28
Lives for gear
 
tourtelot's Avatar
Hi Roger. I have all the parts for your M/S setup but I am a bit turned around on the first photo. Is the green "dot" the front facing side of the Mid mic? Can't quite wrap my (just awoke) brain around how the pair is sitting on the stand.

D.
Old 1 week ago
  #29
Lives for gear
Yes Doug
Red Ship Left Port.
Old 1 week ago
  #30
Gear Addict
 

I would try mk2s and mkh30 as MS. Or 414 and mkh30 as MS. Then you can use mk2s pair is outrigger or spots.
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