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Rigging Laws?
Old 19th October 2013
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Rigging Laws?

Hi All,

Is anyone aware of any laws or regulations that apply to hanging microphones above audiences or performers? I'm aware that riggers who work in theaters and arenas must be certified and follow OSHA regulations, but I don't know what these regulations are and whether or not they apply to us?

I worked in one venue a while back where I was told I couldn't hang anything above 45 pounds without permission from the local government. Is this policy common in the US? Is it the weight of microphones that allows us to skate under the law, or are we breaking the law every time we hang a mic?

(I'm asking specifically about regulations in the US.)

Thanks!
Old 19th October 2013
  #2
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Enginearing's Avatar
 

I wouldn't fly mics without the venue's licensed rigger signing off on it... YMMV
Old 19th October 2013
  #3
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Never had to worry about specific laws when it comes to rigging mics. Primarily because they don't weigh enough to be very dangerous.

Now that doesn't mean you can be careless. Quite the opposite. Use good quality line that is strong enough. Learn how knots and friction work in a rigging situation. Make sure all pulleys are weight rated (I use a lot of climbing gear personally) and so on...

Also work with house crews to ensure that the house rules are being followed.

-Ben
Old 19th October 2013
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Enginearing View Post
I wouldn't fly mics without the venue's licensed rigger signing off on it... YMMV
In a venue that has a licensed rigger on hand who's willing to work with mics, then yes, that would be the ideal. But only on the rarest of occasions does that actually happen for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle View Post
Never had to worry about specific laws when it comes to rigging mics. Primarily because they don't weigh enough to be very dangerous.
But, is that your own assessment that "they don't weigh enough to be very dangerous" or is that actual law? Is there a cutoff between "too light to matter" and "heavy enough that it needs to be regulated"?

Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle View Post
Now that doesn't mean you can be careless. Quite the opposite. Use good quality line that is strong enough. Learn how knots and friction work in a rigging situation. Make sure all pulleys are weight rated (I use a lot of climbing gear personally) and so on...
Steel cable, cut to length and secured with nicopress-style crimped ferules onto hardware rated for overhead rigging. No knots above peoples' heads. It helps me sleep at night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle View Post
Also work with house crews to ensure that the house rules are being followed.
Of course, but what do we fall back on when the house rules are "we don't care what you do"?
Old 19th October 2013
  #5
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Enginearing's Avatar
 

The rigger needn't work with the mics, just cast an eye over the work method.
If there's no-one in the venue who I feel experienced enough to sign off, I would run it buy someone else personally, who I already have a good working relationship with.

There's always tall stands and shot bags to fall back on.
Old 19th October 2013
  #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JustAnotherUser View Post
Steel cable, cut to length and secured with nicopress-style crimped ferules onto hardware rated for overhead rigging. No knots above peoples' heads. It helps me sleep at night.
Mountain climbers use knots.

I'm sure any laws would vary by state and probably city. Where would a person look to find them? Building codes? It seems more like a general liability kind of thing. If you put it there and it falls someone might sue you. But it's kind of weird what gets regulated and what doesn't. Like in my state, the state issues licenses to people who cut hair, but not to people who work on automotive brakes. You need a licence to teach in a public school, but in a private school, anything goes. Things can be weird that way.
Old 19th October 2013
  #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piper View Post
I'm sure any laws would vary by state and probably city. Where would a person look to find them? Building codes? It seems more like a general liability kind of thing. If you put it there and it falls someone might sue you. But it's kind of weird what gets regulated and what doesn't. Like in my state, the state issues licenses to people who cut hair, but not to people who work on automotive brakes. You need a licence to teach in a public school, but in a private school, anything goes. Things can be weird that way.
Agreed.

OSHA sets the standards for the construction industry, and it seems they follow those standards in theater as well. If an accident happens, they can point to the most stringent federal standard and say, "well, we did it by the book." You might still be sued, but the damages would be reduced if, technically, you did what you were supposed to do.


Quote:
Originally Posted by piper View Post
Mountain climbers use knots.
Falling to your death because your own knot came loose is one thing. Watching someone else fall to their death because your knot came loose is completely different. When flying actors on stage (Peter Pan, Beauty and the Beast, Cirque du Soleil, and the like), they don't use knots.
Old 19th October 2013
  #8
I saw a microphone give way off some rigging done with fishing line and almost hit the conductor in the head at a classical concert. The microphone was over the audience, it was pulled back by some fishing line and the knots or the line gave way and it missed the conductors head by inches. Microphones hung by inexperienced people over audience's heads always make me nervous. Since I am not a professional rigger I usually stay away from hanging microphone.

As to rigging laws..best to get a pro if you cannot or will not do it yourself or have LOTS of liability insurance.
Old 19th October 2013
  #9
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At some point "Common Sense" needs to prevail. Several years ago I was helping a small mountain Baptist Church improve their sound reinforcement system and the main change was new speakers. Two Mackie 450s was their choice and, given their low ceiling and very small pulpit, hanging them horizontally in front of the lectern was their only choice. Mackie recommended one and only one rigging manufacturer and after an informative phone conversation to explain why rigging for two small speakers should cost more than $1,000.00 I hung up the phone and had to laugh at the convoluted "catch 22" our legal system has put us. $50. worth of materiel and labor X 7 for overhead and marketing= $350. +$650. for insurance to eliminate liability exposure. One of the deacons worked in an auto parts store and brought in some heavy duty chains and fittings that secured the speakers to the trusses that hold up the roof. Total cost $32.50. the only way they will come down is if the roof collapses and even Perry Mason would have a hard time proving two small speakers could cause that. To many Lawyers and too much Government is some parts of our country ---YOU BET!
Old 19th October 2013
  #10
Gear Addict
 

Aside from any pertaining Regulations issues, I've found it easier to placate any grumbling house technical staff, if I show that I'm implementing a few commonsense redundancy measures.

For example, using two instances of a fishing line suspension segment (and ideally attached to separate house fixing points) instead of just the one segment. This costs little, takes trivial extra time to set up, and gives extra mic manouevre possibilities. If the chance of a line snapping is 0.1%, the chance of both lines snapping is only 0.0001%!

After all, we advocate having a backup recorder...so it's logical to have a backup fishing line :-)
Old 19th October 2013
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
At some point "Common Sense" needs to prevail. Several years ago I was helping a small mountain Baptist Church improve their sound reinforcement system and the main change was new speakers. Two Mackie 450s was their choice and, given their low ceiling and very small pulpit, hanging them horizontally in front of the lectern was their only choice. Mackie recommended one and only one rigging manufacturer and after an informative phone conversation to explain why rigging for two small speakers should cost more than $1,000.00 I hung up the phone and had to laugh at the convoluted "catch 22" our legal system has put us. $50. worth of materiel and labor X 7 for overhead and marketing= $350. +$650. for insurance to eliminate liability exposure. One of the deacons worked in an auto parts store and brought in some heavy duty chains and fittings that secured the speakers to the trusses that hold up the roof. Total cost $32.50. the only way they will come down is if the roof collapses and even Perry Mason would have a hard time proving two small speakers could cause that. To many Lawyers and too much Government is some parts of our country ---YOU BET!
Glad you met your budget. I hope you are correct about your rig, because of you aren't and something falls on someone your church could be sued out of existence, especially once the fact that you didn't use a certified professional comes out in the discovery process. Does your church's insurance carrier know about your rig? Did you guys check your policy re liability?

philp
Old 19th October 2013
  #12
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There is a big difference between speakers and microphones. I refuse to touch speakers that go in the air. I use only speakers that are made to fly and will only use a rigger with liability insurance to put them in the air.

When I hang mics, I do not use fishing line. I do not believe that it is strong enough. I use either theatrical tie line or 4mm static nylon line for climbing. I keep it away from lights and I'm very careful about how things fly...

As I said before, I follow house rules. If the house doesn't care, that doesn't mean that I do a sloppy job. Quite the opposite. I make sure that everything is done to the highest spec. I also avoid aircraft cable of any size because it is too difficult to get the rig into the place where I need it and get it up quickly as needed to control labor costs. It's also a one-time use thing. When you crimp it, you're not using it again for safety.

I have a series of climbing rated carabineers (2500KG load), I use climbing rated pulleys (most at 750KG or better). I usually attach them to theatrical schedule 40 pipe using bergers with eye-bolts. (for example: Global Truss America, LLC- High Quality Lighting and Stage Trussing)

I also have to be careful what knots are used. It is best to use knots that self-tighten with stress. There are a number of knots that when a line is pulled will tighten rather than stay static or loosen. A hint- don't use the same knot that you tie your shoes with.

If you want to bring in a rigger, that's fine, but I firmly believe that with proper technique, this is complete overkill.

--Ben
Old 19th October 2013
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe View Post
I saw a microphone give way off some rigging done with fishing line and almost hit the conductor in the head at a classical concert.
This is the kind of thing that keeps me up at night.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
Several years ago I was helping a small mountain Baptist Church improve their sound reinforcement system and the main change was new speakers.
I'm not touching this with a ten foot pole. There is a huge difference between rigging mics and rigging speakers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom McC View Post
Aside from any pertaining Regulations issues, I've found it easier to placate any grumbling house technical staff, if I show that I'm implementing a few commonsense redundancy measures.

For example, using two instances of a fishing line suspension segment (and ideally attached to separate house fixing points) instead of just the one segment. This costs little, takes trivial extra time to set up, and gives extra mic manouevre possibilities. If the chance of a line snapping is 0.1%, the chance of both lines snapping is only 0.0001%!

After all, we advocate having a backup recorder...so it's logical to have a backup fishing line :-)
Agreed. Not only does it make it safer, it makes it easier to aim mics.
Old 20th October 2013
  #14
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by philper View Post
Glad you met your budget. I hope you are correct about your rig, because of you aren't and something falls on someone your church could be sued out of existence, especially once the fact that you didn't use a certified professional comes out in the discovery process. Does your church's insurance carrier know about your rig? Did you guys check your policy re liability?

philp
I used to work for a huge insurance company. Their legal department is skilled in evading responsibility. If they can find the tiniest loophole they will use it. They have a roomfull of lawyers on the payroll. You cannot afford to beat them in court. Court costs alone will crush you. Insurance companies basic rule is to avoid as much risk as possible. They will. You have not. Good luck. And pray a lot.
Old 20th October 2013
  #15
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle View Post
When I hang mics, I do not use fishing line. I do not believe that it is strong enough. I use either theatrical tie line or 4mm static nylon line for climbing.
Though I'd mentioned fishing line to illustrate my point, I also actually use only nylon rope and carabinieri hooks - but from nautical supply stores [not too many mountains in the Benelux :-)] Pity, though, that the rope's white..which can annoy some videographers.
Old 20th October 2013
  #16
Quote:
Originally Posted by fifthcircle View Post
There is a big difference between speakers and microphones. I refuse to touch speakers that go in the air. I use only speakers that are made to fly and will only use a rigger with liability insurance to put them in the air.

When I hang mics, I do not use fishing line. I do not believe that it is strong enough. I use either theatrical tie line or 4mm static nylon line for climbing. I keep it away from lights and I'm very careful about how things fly...

As I said before, I follow house rules. If the house doesn't care, that doesn't mean that I do a sloppy job. Quite the opposite. I make sure that everything is done to the highest spec. I also avoid aircraft cable of any size because it is too difficult to get the rig into the place where I need it and get it up quickly as needed to control labor costs. It's also a one-time use thing. When you crimp it, you're not using it again for safety.

I have a series of climbing rated carabineers (2500KG load), I use climbing rated pulleys (most at 750KG or better). I usually attach them to theatrical schedule 40 pipe using bergers with eye-bolts. (for example: Global Truss America, LLC- High Quality Lighting and Stage Trussing)

I also have to be careful what knots are used. It is best to use knots that self-tighten with stress. There are a number of knots that when a line is pulled will tighten rather than stay static or loosen. A hint- don't use the same knot that you tie your shoes with.

If you want to bring in a rigger, that's fine, but I firmly believe that with proper technique, this is complete overkill.

--Ben
I am glad to see that someone has thought this whole thing out and is doing it right.

Keep up the good work!
Old 20th October 2013
  #17
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Think this through with me folks:
1. The Mackie 450 speakers have anchored, threaded receptacles for eye bolts to secure the fittings to fly the speakers.
2.The design of the speaker receptacles was sufficiently sound to satisfy Mackie's concerns about the risks of extended exposure as long as competent rigging was applied.
3. The single company Mackie recommended to provide rigging had "touched enough bases" to satisfy the Mackie legal team's concerns about extended liability. The fittings and application of same was shifted to a third party.
4. The list of devices and their respective quality was detailed in the rigging specks and it clearly was not rocket science.
5. The black steel eye bolts, massive chains and connections that the Church used were much stronger and easier to install to the roof super structure than the high priced alternative: they were usually deployed to pull 20,000 lb commercial loads.
6.Boojum's point about the insurance industry's proclivities toward blame shifting is absolutely on target and to this end reliance on a manufacturers liability coverage to cover your A-- when dealing with failed installations is fools gold. The venue is usually left bearing responsibility.
7.Given these circumstances it is my belief the venue needs to have the ultimate informed choice of the appropriate method to hang speakers.
This is another case of "One Shoe Does Not Fit All Feet"!
Old 20th October 2013
  #18
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DCtoDaylight's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom McC View Post
Though I'd mentioned fishing line to illustrate my point, I also actually use only nylon rope and carabinieri hooks - but from nautical supply stores [not too many mountains in the Benelux :-)] Pity, though, that the rope's white..which can annoy some videographers.
Marine is the way to go! Black line is available if you look around - these guys make excellent products; their Orion 500 series has small-diameter line (2, 3, 4, 5, 6mm) in black:

Teufelberger

This is a super-useful discussion; I'm listening avidly. Personally I like to use cleats rather than knots, as they give a good combination of adjustability and reliability. A properly cleated line won't go anywhere. I've made up a few cleats that can be attached to fixed points by various means....
Old 21st October 2013
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
Think this through with me folks:
1. The Mackie 450 speakers have anchored, threaded receptacles for eye bolts to secure the fittings to fly the speakers.
2.The design of the speaker receptacles was sufficiently sound to satisfy Mackie's concerns about the risks of extended exposure as long as competent rigging was applied.
3. The single company Mackie recommended to provide rigging had "touched enough bases" to satisfy the Mackie legal team's concerns about extended liability. The fittings and application of same was shifted to a third party.
4. The list of devices and their respective quality was detailed in the rigging specks and it clearly was not rocket science.
5. The black steel eye bolts, massive chains and connections that the Church used were much stronger and easier to install to the roof super structure than the high priced alternative: they were usually deployed to pull 20,000 lb commercial loads.
6.Boojum's point about the insurance industry's proclivities toward blame shifting is absolutely on target and to this end reliance on a manufacturers liability coverage to cover your A-- when dealing with failed installations is fools gold. The venue is usually left bearing responsibility.
7.Given these circumstances it is my belief the venue needs to have the ultimate informed choice of the appropriate method to hang speakers.
This is another case of "One Shoe Does Not Fit All Feet"!
It's good you have these arguments thought out and written down. But if you are not a licensed engineer and/or contractor and some part of your rig turns out to be faulty or someone else's actions cause it to fail then I doubt it will help you much in court. The victim's lawyers will "shotgun" everyone involved in the rigging, and all will have to defend themselves. I strongly urge you to have the church hire an appropriately licensed professional and do whatever is necessary to get them to sign off on the rig.

philp
Old 21st October 2013
  #20
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
Think this through with me folks:
1. The Mackie 450 speakers have anchored, threaded receptacles for eye bolts to secure the fittings to fly the speakers.
2.The design of the speaker receptacles was sufficiently sound to satisfy Mackie's concerns about the risks of extended exposure as long as competent rigging was applied.
3. The single company Mackie recommended to provide rigging had "touched enough bases" to satisfy the Mackie legal team's concerns about extended liability. The fittings and application of same was shifted to a third party.
4. The list of devices and their respective quality was detailed in the rigging specks and it clearly was not rocket science.
5. The black steel eye bolts, massive chains and connections that the Church used were much stronger and easier to install to the roof super structure than the high priced alternative: they were usually deployed to pull 20,000 lb commercial loads.
6.Boojum's point about the insurance industry's proclivities toward blame shifting is absolutely on target and to this end reliance on a manufacturers liability coverage to cover your A-- when dealing with failed installations is fools gold. The venue is usually left bearing responsibility.
7.Given these circumstances it is my belief the venue needs to have the ultimate informed choice of the appropriate method to hang speakers.
This is another case of "One Shoe Does Not Fit All Feet"!

Tell your insurance broker about it. If you have anyone injured from this rigging you can kiss that church goodbye, and possibly your home. Talk to your insurance agent and/or a lawyer. If you think for a minute what you have done makes any difference you are wrong. The injured party's lawyer will simply asked who did the job and was he licensed. But, do what you want. You are convinced you know what you are doing.
Old 21st October 2013
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

In order to steer things back to the question at hand, let me throw a specific example out: hanging a decca tree or other large array. The rig might weigh upwards of 10 pounds, and could be 15 feet above the stage and 20 feet above the audience, so if it comes down on top of someone, they're going to the hospital.

1) what precautions would you take when hanging it, assuming no licensed rigger is around, and;
2) if it comes down on top of someone, what happens to the person that rigged it?
Old 21st October 2013
  #22
Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
Tell your insurance broker about it. If you have anyone injured from this rigging you can kiss that church goodbye, and possibly your home. Talk to your insurance agent and/or a lawyer. If you think for a minute what you have done makes any difference you are wrong. The injured party's lawyer will simply asked who did the job and was he licensed. But, do what you want. You are convinced you know what you are doing.
My best friend is an acoustician. He designs lots of PA systems for churches. Before he can do his work he needs to inspect what they already have in the church. What he finds is sometimes very upsetting to him. In one case the speakers were hung off the trusses with "twine" about a 1/4" in diameter. The "twine" was already starting to fray. In another case the heavy speakers were held to the plaster ceiling with molly bolts and very under rated for the job. In another case the speakers were simply hanging from the rafters with some very small chains. My friend always tries to tell the churches that when they are hanging 200 lbs or more of speaker over someone's head you better hire someone who knows what they are doing but many times it falls on deaf ears. Most times the church thinks they are "saving money" but in the long run they maybe asked to pay a lot more in accident or injury claims.

To each his or her own.
Old 21st October 2013
  #23
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Not my house and not my insurance carrier! I recommended the speakers to the worship director and informed them about their options for fittings. I also explained the liability exposure that was clearly involved with the pricing. One of the deacons is a licensed electrician that hung several lighting fixtures of comparable weight in compliance with the southern building code when the Church was built. He was puzzled by the excessive measures SR installations required in this instance. The Church purchased the fittings and installed the speakers. Read my two posts: The Church and the membership have been very happy with the system they installed and are certainly not disappointed with the stewardship of their funds.
Old 21st October 2013
  #24
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jude's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
they were usually deployed to pull 20,000 lb commercial loads.
chain that is rated to pull a load is not used to lift a load. EVER! trust me on this, i drive and rig cranes for a living. the only chain that should be used for a load to be lifted is grade 80 chain. in australia the smallest diameter that can be used is 6mm.
Old 21st October 2013
  #25
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
Not my house and not my insurance carrier! I recommended the speakers to the worship director and informed them about their options for fittings. I also explained the liability exposure that was clearly involved with the pricing. One of the deacons is a licensed electrician that hung several lighting fixtures of comparable weight in compliance with the southern building code when the Church was built. He was puzzled by the excessive measures SR installations required in this instance. The Church purchased the fittings and installed the speakers. Read my two posts: The Church and the membership have been very happy with the system they installed and are certainly not disappointed with the stewardship of their funds.
Well the church maybe happy with the "stewardship of their funds" until something happens and a church member gets hurt or killed and then they may NOT be so happy when they are sued. In this litigious society we all live in today it is probably a good idea to distance yourself from this project as much as you can. When lawyers go looking for money they cast a very wide net.

Again


To each his or her own...

In my example of the microphone almost hitting the conductor when it was improperly flown. If it had hit the conductor and lets say damaged his hearing in one of his ears... how much would that cost...answer A LOT! or what if it had caused a blood clot and he died...the sky is the limit when it comes to juries and awarding damages.

What ever you are comfortable with then do it. Just make sure you are well insured if you decide to do things your own way.

I have been in professional audio for over 40 years and I have seen even the best of the best make mistakes. Thankfully no one was hurt when something fell or came down hard, But there is always a first time. Unless you are a licensed professional rigger I wouldn't do anything that involves heavy weights and gravity. Gravity will always win.

FWIW and YMMV
Old 21st October 2013
  #26
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
Not my house and not my insurance carrier! I recommended the speakers to the worship director and informed them about their options for fittings. I also explained the liability exposure that was clearly involved with the pricing. One of the deacons is a licensed electrician that hung several lighting fixtures of comparable weight in compliance with the southern building code when the Church was built. He was puzzled by the excessive measures SR installations required in this instance. The Church purchased the fittings and installed the speakers. Read my two posts: The Church and the membership have been very happy with the system they installed and are certainly not disappointed with the stewardship of their funds.
OK, here is your worse case scenario: a speaker drops onto a small child. The child is severely injured. He will require extensive surgery and rehabilitation and need medical care for the rest of his life. The parents turn to their insurance company for help. Their insurance company sues the church's insurance company, the deacons, the man who put up the speakers and anyone else who is standing around looking like they are connected. The insurance company has very, very deeps pockets and lawyers who are evil. I knew a lawyer who was working on contract for an insurance company. A fellow lawyer told him that he would rather defend a child molester than an insurance company lawyer. Insurance companies have droves of them. Are you getting the picture yet?

If that case goes to court I told you what will happen: Question, "Who put up the speakers?" Question, "Is he a licensed rigger?" The insurance company lawyer is not going to be a local good old boy. The case will turn on law not good intentions or the "But I am an electrician" argument. It is irrelevant.

But don't believe us. Ask a lawyer. Ask the fellow who writes the church's insurance. Be guided by their counsel. People on this board with years of professional experience have told you what they know. You have not been influenced by facts or experience. Good luck.


PS - By the way, the "onerous intrusions" of government happen just because of people who rigged gear that later injured people. If speakers would gently rise if unattached do you think there would be laws about rigging them?

Last edited by boojum; 21st October 2013 at 09:45 PM.. Reason: I thought of something else
Old 22nd October 2013
  #27
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"What we have here is a failure to communicate" --It is clear to me rigging protocols are developed to establish sound practices when flying people or devices for any purpose. It is also clear to me rigging for theatric activities has certain visual needs that make safe rigging a much more difficult problem than ordinary suspension of any number of things that is governed by various building codes. This small mountain Church is hanging two 40+lb speakers 7 ft above the surface of a communion table with heavy duty chain wrapped around the trusses that hold up the roof: they are not flying Peter Pan over the pulpit.
Some of you that work in areas that live with jury decisions that will award millions to a dumb-A-- that dumps hot coffee in their lap and you are understandably toeing a line for these precedents. I do not believe any ambulance chasing lawyer would have a chance in this county or state against a small local church--given the facts! There still are some parts of this country that place a high value on common sense.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #28
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
"What we have here is a failure to communicate" --It is clear to me rigging protocols are developed to establish sound practices when flying people or devices for any purpose. It is also clear to me rigging for theatric activities has certain visual needs that make safe rigging a much more difficult problem than ordinary suspension of any number of things that is governed by various building codes. This small mountain Church is hanging two 40+lb speakers 7 ft above the surface of a communion table with heavy duty chain wrapped around the trusses that hold up the roof: they are not flying Peter Pan over the pulpit.
Some of you that work in areas that live with jury decisions that will award millions to a dumb-A-- that dumps hot coffee in their lap and you are understandably toeing a line for these precedents. I do not believe any ambulance chasing lawyer would have a chance in this county or state against a small local church--given the facts! There still are some parts of this country that place a high value on common sense.
Last I looked "communication" is a two way street. Best of luck when some shyster lawyer decides this is his BIG case and goes for the gonads. If you think a small town in the middle of nowhere is safe from the legal profession you are living a fantasy life.

Again

Do what you want to do but just be ready for the consequences. I hope the church has very deep pockets.

As pointed out above my best friend is an acoustician. He has told me lots of horror stories including getting called into a church where one of the speakers had fallen from the ceiling. The chains were still around the rafter but the bracket attaching the speaker to the chain had given way. It was held onto the speaker box (made of MDF) with four 1" screws. The speaker fell when no one was in the church but it damaged a pew. A professional rigger would not have flown it with that bracket...but that is what a professional is hired for.

Best of luck!
Old 22nd October 2013
  #29
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
"What we have here is a failure to communicate" --It is clear to me rigging protocols are developed to establish sound practices when flying people or devices for any purpose. It is also clear to me rigging for theatric activities has certain visual needs that make safe rigging a much more difficult problem than ordinary suspension of any number of things that is governed by various building codes. This small mountain Church is hanging two 40+lb speakers 7 ft above the surface of a communion table with heavy duty chain wrapped around the trusses that hold up the roof: they are not flying Peter Pan over the pulpit.
Some of you that work in areas that live with jury decisions that will award millions to a dumb-A-- that dumps hot coffee in their lap and you are understandably toeing a line for these precedents. I do not believe any ambulance chasing lawyer would have a chance in this county or state against a small local church--given the facts! There still are some parts of this country that place a high value on common sense.

All this will evaporate when someone says, "I'll see you in court." Do you insure your house or your car? So much for "outsiders" coming to Deep Gap and ruining your bucolic world. But you have been cautioned by many professional recording engineers here and chose to ignore the advice you asked for.

Tell me what you would do if it one of those speakers landed on you and disabled you for life. Would you let that roll off your back? Or would you contest a low or no settlement from your "small local church"? And cases are not settled on the basis of "common sense" but law. There are almost 1,000 years of solid precedent for the acceptance in court of law over common sense. Think about it. Think about the liability. Think about losing everything you own just because you rigged it and it failed.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
All this will evaporate when someone says, "I'll see you in court." Do you insure your house or your car? So much for "outsiders" coming to Deep Gap and ruining your bucolic world. But you have been cautioned by many professional recording engineers here and chose to ignore the advice you asked for.

Tell me what you would do if it one of those speakers landed on you and disabled you for life. Would you let that roll off your back? Or would you contest a low or no settlement from your "small local church"? And cases are not settled on the basis of "common sense" but law. There are almost 1,000 years of solid precedent for the acceptance in court of law over common sense. Think about it. Think about the liability. Think about losing everything you own just because you rigged it and it failed.
Exactly.

Does the church carry insurance? If so, any non-complying installations will almost surely void your policies. So as a matter of stewardship, make certain that you're not throwing $$$ down a hole, paying for something which will be denied to you simply because you took a shortcut.

And...wrapping heavy chain around a structural member un-rated for such loading kind of negates the rating of the chain...
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