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Rigging Laws?
Old 22nd October 2013
  #31
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Double post.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #32
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For $750 you can get a Latch Lake MicKing stand that will position mics 21 feet in the air. And only that's only one possibility from the ground up. I'm certain ladders and other brands can go higher. Just put your foot down and insist that you don't do rigging since you're not certified or insured. Also it would justify why you bought the darn thing in the first place.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #33
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The failure to communicate is obviously the regimented thinking Left coast and Rust Belt, union dominated, practitioners are accustomed to dealing with. Here in North Carolina the building code for the subject Church project to follow establishes the guide lines for appertainces that may or may not require a NC licensed Engineer to sign off on. That is the sum total of it: there is no regulatory language for "Licensed Certified Riggers" in North Carolina and for that matter, for some theatric installations, a NC licensed engineers approval would be necessary for the best of pro certified rigging to be compliant with Carolina law. I also know that all the "Kings Men" will have lawyers that will figure the best way to wiggle out of responsibility for any accident that occurs regardless of any certified personnel that was used to plan, provide, install or use the failed flying equipment. The venue is usually left holding the bag. I also have been a professional recording Eng. for more than 40 years and would not touch a recording gig with a 10 ft. pole in a union dominated area for many reasons I do not need to cover in this post. I prefer living and working in an area that is governed with an appreciation of common sense.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
The failure to communicate is obviously the regimented thinking Left coast and Rust Belt, union dominated, practitioners are accustomed to dealing with. Here in North Carolina the building code for the subject Church project to follow establishes the guide lines for appertainces that may or may not require a NC licensed Engineer to sign off on. That is the sum total of it: there is no regulatory language for "Licensed Certified Riggers" in North Carolina and for that matter, for some theatric installations, a NC licensed engineers approval would be necessary for the best of pro certified rigging to be compliant with Carolina law. I also know that all the "Kings Men" will have lawyers that will figure the best way to wiggle out of responsibility for any accident that occurs regardless of any certified personnel that was used to plan, provide, install or use the failed flying equipment. The venue is usually left holding the bag. I also have been a professional recording Eng. for more than 40 years and would not touch a recording gig with a 10 ft. pole in a union dominated area for many reasons I do not need to cover in this post. I prefer living and working in an area that is governed with an appreciation of common sense.
Inappropriate (to this forum) attempts at insults about where some of us live, how we work etc (heard them all before, thanks), aren't really very helpful, but I'm glad you agree that re the amateur rigging in a public place question it's the owners of the venue that will be holding the bag re any litigation that happens because of an accident. I'm Left Coast, Union, 40 years in the biz etc etc but don't like lawyers any more than you do. But the slimy sharks are out there waiting, so you need to protect yourself and your friends, right?

philp
Old 23rd October 2013
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
The failure to communicate is obviously the regimented thinking Left coast and Rust Belt, union dominated, practitioners are accustomed to dealing with. Here in North Carolina the building code for the subject Church project to follow establishes the guide lines for appertainces that may or may not require a NC licensed Engineer to sign off on. That is the sum total of it: there is no regulatory language for "Licensed Certified Riggers" in North Carolina and for that matter, for some theatric installations, a NC licensed engineers approval would be necessary for the best of pro certified rigging to be compliant with Carolina law. I also know that all the "Kings Men" will have lawyers that will figure the best way to wiggle out of responsibility for any accident that occurs regardless of any certified personnel that was used to plan, provide, install or use the failed flying equipment. The venue is usually left holding the bag. I also have been a professional recording Eng. for more than 40 years and would not touch a recording gig with a 10 ft. pole in a union dominated area for many reasons I do not need to cover in this post. I prefer living and working in an area that is governed with an appreciation of common sense.
House.....

No matter how you feel or what opinions you have, getting to the bottom line is very simple. All that is required is to contact the insurance company carrying the policy and have them tell you what they'll cover and what they won't, any requirements they might have for certifications and so on. Once they sign off on it, you're good to go.

No fuss, no muss, no lawsuits.
Old 24th October 2013
  #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wyllys View Post
House.....

No matter how you feel or what opinions you have, getting to the bottom line is very simple. All that is required is to contact the insurance company carrying the policy and have them tell you what they'll cover and what they won't, any requirements they might have for certifications and so on. Once they sign off on it, you're good to go.

No fuss, no muss, no lawsuits.
I have suggested this twice at least. I think his mind is made up and he does not want confusing facts to inform him. A duck can hear but a duck cannot listen.

He seems pretty convinced he is right, everybody that he asked for advice is wrong, because they do not agree and if he loses a liability lawsuit it will be for crooked sliminess and not any legal reason.

House, "How should I do this?"

GS: professional advice

House, "You are all wrong."
Old 24th October 2013
  #37
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For the "GS PROS",
In response to op:

House: This is how it was handled in one instance here in my neighborhood.

GS Pros: you are wrong--the lawyers will close the Church and have your house and car.

House; Not in NC

The 10th amendment to our governing national law (the constitution) reserves all governance that is not explicitly allocated to the federal government---to the individual states. To this end there is no national insurance law or standard: it is a state by state fitting of actuarial standards meshing with individual state rules and regs. In the event an Insurance Co. cannot live with a given state's rules they have the option to quit doing business in that given state. The "GS Pros" had no knowledge of inquiries that may or may not have been made to the subject insurance carriers agents or the building inspectors that regulate these activities in this part of the country. If the attachment was in anyway questionable an Engineering opinion would have been required to comply with state law.They arrogantly predicted little children being mortally wounded by falling speakers that had not been installed by "Licensed Certified Riggers". The Lawyers would confiscate all that was dear as recompense. Mackie and their chosen provider for fittings to fly the speakers have to comply with all proclivities every where to cover their a--. This certainly does not indicate the left shoe will fit any right foot!
Any notion that coverage by an insurance policy is prevention of law suits is foolish: the first thing an ambulance chaser will seek out is how much insurance coverage. They always have to find a deep pocket to make their effort worth it and for this reason folks of lesser means seldom if ever get sued! It is my belief this verbal whizzing contest has gone on long enough!
Old 24th October 2013
  #38
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
For the "GS PROS",
In response to op:

House: This is how it was handled in one instance here in my neighborhood.

GS Pros: you are wrong--the lawyers will close the Church and have your house and car.

House; Not in NC

The 10th amendment to our governing national law (the constitution) reserves all governance that is not explicitly allocated to the federal government---to the individual states. To this end there is no national insurance law or standard: it is a state by state fitting of actuarial standards meshing with individual state rules and regs. In the event an Insurance Co. cannot live with a given state's rules they have the option to quit doing business in that given state. The "GS Pros" had no knowledge of inquiries that may or may not have been made to the subject insurance carriers agents or the building inspectors that regulate these activities in this part of the country. If the attachment was in anyway questionable an Engineering opinion would have been required to comply with state law.They arrogantly predicted little children being mortally wounded by falling speakers that had not been installed by "Licensed Certified Riggers". The Lawyers would confiscate all that was dear as recompense. Mackie and their chosen provider for fittings to fly the speakers have to comply with all proclivities every where to cover their a--. This certainly does not indicate the left shoe will fit any right foot!
Any notion that coverage by an insurance policy is prevention of law suits is foolish: the first thing an ambulance chaser will seek out is how much insurance coverage. They always have to find a deep pocket to make their effort worth it and for this reason folks of lesser means seldom if ever get sued! It is my belief this verbal whizzing contest has gone on long enough!
Unless you are a lawyer and a member of the North Carolina bar your "advice" is just that.

If you are providing "legal" advice to the church and you are not a lawyer or a member of the North Carolina bar you can get into some very sticky legal areas that I don't think you want to get into.

Leave the legal advice for the lawyers.

The basic "law" works the same in all 50 states.

You have gotten some very good advice from some people who have been in the audio business for many years. If you don't want to take their "advice" then it is strictly up to you. If it were me I would not give any "legal" advice to anyone and would refer the church's governing body to someone who can "legally" tell them what to do. God maybe forgiving but lawyers are not...

Best of luck !
Old 24th October 2013
  #39
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Forgive me for saying this, but once upon a time there was a spirit of cooperation and neighbourliness in this world. People would pool their resources, folks would make a day out of some communal event, such as a barn-raising. A barn-raising benefited only one individual if you saw it as raising only one barn, but obviously it benefitted the community since it was certain that someone might need help in the future.

Sorry for the interruption. I could have made a sarcastic comment about the seriousness to which folks descend into petty foolishness, but in this case the barn or building has already been erected. It has already withstood some history, and in the future it can be repaired under the supervision of licensed structural engineers.

The next time I'm in Washington and visit the National Cathedral, I'll make a point of of casually leaning against one of those enormous pillars and I'll wonder if the thing will come crumbling down. Maybe it will just wobble and and a pricey DPA 4006 will come loose and impale me as it drops to the ground.
Old 28th October 2013
  #40
Gear Nut
 

As someone who had to go through our yearly OHSA training at the venue I work at, I can tell you that citing OHSA regs in a performance environment will lead to contradictions in the area of working with loads overhead. OHSA state do not have anyone under a load, yet that is the nature of a performance space. That is why there are riggers and ground riggers and master carpenters and the whole plethora of qualified technical positions in the entrainment field. And as someone who does rigging and has worked building the rigging fly systems that many theaters use, there is a standard safety margin for hanging loads. A static load (like mics) if hung b y a professional/union rigger will have at a minimum a 7:1 safety factor mist people use 10:1 because the math is easier and more is better. So 1 LB of mics will be hung by something that can support 10 LBS. ANd no knots will be used, but in a temporary setting neither will nicos, unless you count the ones on premade aircraft cables. spansets, shackles(quick links on lighter loads) and chain will be used all rated and flown by either a pulley system or chain fall/motor. With all that said, unless you are talking very large venue or arena the audio people would be expected to have the expertise and knowledge to hand something a simple as mics safely. If they cant then I don't see them having their job for very long
Old 28th October 2013
  #41
Just a quick dose of reality here. The weights of typical SDC microphones fall in the 2 to 5 oz range. The cable that it hangs from is a minimum of 10 times the weight of the microphone itself.
I've been hanging microphones in concert halls for the last 25 years and have never had any question about using decent cord and knots. (I do not use the term "rigging" because I was a rigger in a municipal auditorium in my mis-spent youth and know the difference) For the most part, if I'm hanging mics myself, no one comments or cares what knot I use or which line I use for pull strings. There are a couple of places that have particular requests, In one venue they want me to tape the microphone to the XLR connector, in another they want a 50 lb leader line for attaching the pull strings.

Other than that, it is basic common sense. The microphones hang from their cables. Get some lash line (Trick line, #8 cotton cord, whatever they call it where you come from) and friction tape for securing the wire to whatever it is hanging from. For the pull strings, Go out and get a couple of 300m rolls of 50 lb braided fishing cord (NOT MONOFILAMENT!!) and learn to tie the 6 or 8 knots that you need to know to attach the line to different objects.

Finally, If somebody wants you to sling a line from side to side, you need to understand about the tension and load and how it relates to the materials being used to suspend the system. I have to admit that I've only had to string a line across the proscenium four or five times in the last 20 years. Normally in these situations stands are a much better option.
As always, YMMV.
All the best,
-mark
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