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Quintiessential Shumann and my current trolley.
Old 18th October 2013
  #1
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Quintiessential Schumann and my current trolley.

Its festival editing time again.
Having just waded through an undigestible Noyes Fludde heres a lovely bit of 1842 chamber music.
Roger
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Quintiessential Shumann and my current trolley.-dsc_0030.jpg   Quintiessential Shumann and my current trolley.-dsc_0031.jpg  
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Old 18th October 2013
  #2
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boojum's Avatar
Nice one. MS?
Old 18th October 2013
  #3
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As ever but with Nagra pres
Agame changer imho.
Old 18th October 2013
  #4
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Perfect!
Old 19th October 2013
  #5
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Larry Elliott's Avatar
Excellent Roger. Must try to find a trolley like that.
Old 19th October 2013
  #6
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Its a water bottle carrier used by Tesco our Supermarket Chain
Had to do a bit of metal bending and shelf rearrangement .It cost £180.
Its very flexible and looks the part
If it looks good it will sound good.
Old 19th October 2013
  #7
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Perfect!
David

if you want to see some nice carts, have a look at some of the film carts on the JWSound Forum.

Or directly at the Chindhda site

80/20 aluminium extrusion used to perfection


Something inovative here

Regards
John
Old 19th October 2013
  #8
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Yes the trolley is nice, but the music is also nicer
Old 19th October 2013
  #9
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Larry Elliott's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
Yes the trolley is nice, but the music is also nicer
Indeed.
Old 19th October 2013
  #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
Yes the trolley is nice, but the music is also nicer
Yes, I was referring to the music and the recording, but will take a look at those trolleys as well.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #11
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I really enjoyed this one. 1842 and it doesn't sound dated a bit.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #12
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It is a very nice recording, but, not meaning to be overly critical, the combined factors of piano in an outer position + coincident recording technique make the piano sound kind of "crunched up in a corner".
Old 23rd October 2013
  #13
Lives for gear
Have you examined the photo Aracu ?
The piano is hardly in an 'outer position'
Perhaps your monitoring is askew.
Roger
Old 23rd October 2013
  #14
Quote:
It is a very nice recording, but, not meaning to be overly critical, the combined factors of piano in an outer position + coincident recording technique make the piano sound kind of "crunched up in a corner".
The piano is a little dull and washy. Partly because of hall acoustics I think, and partly because of the two mic approach. In most cases chamber music with piano can benefit from a spot mic or two, but as we know that is kind of against Rolo's mantra.
Old 23rd October 2013
  #15
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Daniel
I wonder if you have heard an ensemble in a Palladian Hall ?
'Dull and washy' it may be by Hollywood Standard
To me its a very accurate representation of a real chamber event.
Roger
Old 24th October 2013
  #16
The issue is not about chamber events and spaces, it is about the different planes of presence between the strings and the piano in a recording. In most cases, using only two mics will capture the instruments in front of a piano with great clarity and sharpness while leaving the piano somewhat distant and muddy. This happens regardless of the venue. It is why many recording engineers choose to use spots on piano in chamber music. Not saying it is the best way, it just a way to even out the clarity between front and back.
Old 24th October 2013
  #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
Have you examined the photo Aracu ?
The piano is hardly in an 'outer position'
Perhaps your monitoring is askew.
Roger
My comment was based how I percieve the stereo imaging of the recording
from listening to it.
Old 24th October 2013
  #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
The issue is not about chamber events and spaces, it is about the different planes of presence between the strings and the piano in a recording. In most cases, using only two mics will capture the instruments in front of a piano with great clarity and sharpness while leaving the piano somewhat distant and muddy. This happens regardless of the venue. It is why many recording engineers choose to use spots on piano in chamber music. Not saying it is the best way, it just a way to even out the clarity between front and back.
'Planes of presence' do not feature in my recordings, I record the event in an idealised perspective similar to a best seat or conductors pov.
This is the essence of my technique
What you suggest is more agin to pop technique and what I dislike about many recent recordings.
Even clarity betwixt front and back doesn't exist in real life,because of the inverse square law,once tampered with the concept of pure chamber music and its integration ,is slightly soiled imho.
I could present this with more clarity,the array is brilliant for that,but then critics rail against the lack of 'space'.
There seems no pleasing some listeners.
Old 24th October 2013
  #19
Well, you put yourself out there, and people are bound to have opinions. It's not a bad thing by any means, I mean on the bright side it just means folks are interested in the work you are doing, right? Take it with a grain of salt, or a few grains, and keep on tracking :-)
Old 24th October 2013
  #20
Quote:
'Planes of presence' do not feature in my recordings, I record the event in an idealised perspective similar to a best seat or conductors pov.
This is the essence of my technique
What you suggest is more agin to pop technique and what I dislike about many recent recordings.
Even clarity betwixt front and back doesn't exist in real life,because of the inverse square law,once tampered with the concept of pure chamber music and its integration ,is slightly soiled imho.
I could present this with more clarity,the array is brilliant for that,but then critics rail against the lack of 'space'.
There seems no pleasing some listeners.
I understand your reluctance to accept anything I am saying, you have very strong, unwavering opinions on the subject as your recording results are consistently very nice. But just to clarify a few things if I may. You are correct that differences in clarity are not as prominent live. This has more to do with the way we perceive sound. The inverse square law only calculates sound intensity at a distance in a perfectly controlled environment. It does not account for major obstacles that effect presence, such as reflections, sound refraction, and objects in the sound's path. Microphones, especially directional mics, exaggerate these differences, which is why most classical engineers decide to attempt to correct this issue, in order to make it sound closer to reality. It is NOT a pop technique, there is even another thread here about the 4-mic omni approach which is historically very popular. I certainly am not suggesting you stick a couple C414's right over the hammers.
Old 24th October 2013
  #21
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Daniel
I wonder at the font of this knowledge
Figure of eights and omnis are the truest of transducers,eights beyond their proximity, are the most linear.
Cardioids are not
I think this is a US/Euro divide or perhaps a US / Classic BBC divide.
Who cares ?
A very few.
If you wish to spot, you can, If I wish to perceive a subjective single array I can.
The results will speak for themselves.
Roger
Old 24th October 2013
  #22
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Totally deviant response but ... anyone else consider how the grey plastic bum-nummers grate against the elegance of the rest of the surroundings?

Would it sound better if they were the more traditional wooden variety?
Old 24th October 2013
  #23
Gear Addict
 

If you record running water and then play it back to several people asking them what they hear, you'll get a few of different answers.

Out of context, and no knowledge of what was recorded they will either answer water, rain or wind. But include an image of a river and they'll have no difficult naming the source. Or include an image of trees and they'll all answer 'wind', clouds and they'll probably all answer rain. Phsychoacoustics at work

Sitting in an audience KNOWING there is a piano in a particular location on stage AND see it being played at particular a time helps the brain hear it in the correct context. Phsychoacoustics at work.

But, listening to the sample presented here, without the visual clues associated with being there, the piano is indeed a bit dull and washy.

I'd hazard a guess and say that if this same audio was supplied as part of a video clip, then the piano might sound a tad different.
Old 25th October 2013
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
Totally deviant response but ... anyone else consider how the grey plastic bum-nummers grate against the elegance of the rest of the surroundings?

Would it sound better if they were the more traditional wooden variety?
Only if they ditched the downlights, kept the chandelier, and eliminated the architectural tension between the white columns and the black fabric.
Old 25th October 2013
  #25
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
As ever but with Nagra pres
Agame changer imho.
Nice sound. Is there a reason you chose MS over ORTF, or is it just a personal choice?
Old 25th October 2013
  #26
Gear Addict
 
c1ferrari's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
...I record the event in an idealised perspective similar to a best seat or conductors pov.
I appreciate this approach
Old 25th October 2013
  #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by panatrope View Post
Totally deviant response but ... anyone else consider how the grey plastic bum-nummers grate against the elegance of the rest of the surroundings?

Would it sound better if they were the more traditional wooden variety?
The seats have plastic backs but upholstered seats and are quite comfy and dont squeak, the answer is possibly no
However when they changed the floor to American oak from Oak the piano tuner says it changed the hall completely.
Its still very good
Old 25th October 2013
  #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackHenry View Post
If you record running water and then play it back to several people asking them what they hear, you'll get a few of different answers.

Out of context, and no knowledge of what was recorded they will either answer water, rain or wind. But include an image of a river and they'll have no difficult naming the source. Or include an image of trees and they'll all answer 'wind', clouds and they'll probably all answer rain. Phsychoacoustics at work

Sitting in an audience KNOWING there is a piano in a particular location on stage AND see it being played at particular a time helps the brain hear it in the correct context. Phsychoacoustics at work.

But, listening to the sample presented here, without the visual clues associated with being there, the piano is indeed a bit dull and washy.

I'd hazard a guess and say that if this same audio was supplied as part of a video clip, then the piano might sound a tad different.
One mans 'dull and washy' is another mans 'perspective'
Perspective is a mantra disapearing from sound recording in classical music and especially in movie dialogue.
I regret this passing
Old 25th October 2013
  #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzSax_UT View Post
Nice sound. Is there a reason you chose MS over ORTF, or is it just a personal choice?
Its more pragmatic.
Old 25th October 2013
  #30
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rolo 46 View Post
One mans 'dull and washy' is another mans 'perspective'
Perspective is a mantra disapearing from sound recording in classical music and especially in movie dialogue.
I regret this passing
It seems that, even though you've asked for opinions here, that only you know what you're talking about. So, really, with that superior knowledge, you shouldn't need to ask for feedback on your recordings and you can supply them to your client as you see fit. You never know, even the client may be wrong too.
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