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Aligning audio with live video?
Old 21st October 2013
  #31
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Without timecode, I would make one continual audio/video recording as a baseline to align individually tweaked audio files. The continual file is just used as a baseline for alignment purposes and will be tossed out later in editing.

Once you have your baseline in your video, then edit your audio files, import and align them to the baseline. Then lock the edited individual audio files to the video files in Vegas so they don't move around on you as you edit your video. Then edit the video/audio how you want it.

The whole point of the continual file is just a baseline for reference. You're not tied to working with a continual file in your DAW for editing purposes.

Make sense or did I add to confusion or does someone else know a better way when there is no timecode?
Old 21st October 2013
  #32
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Richard Crowley's Avatar
 

Yes and no. Without knowing what is happening in the video, and what kind of program it is, and what the final video looks like, it is impossible to say with any certainty. Whatever way works for you and the particular situation.
Old 21st October 2013
  #33
KEL
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I'd let it run too. just hitting save on obvious spots.

I've done a bunch of these too.

Do you have an iPad? There is a pretty cool slate app that can stamp time down to frames or ms.

Either way You'll do fine on this.
a couple suggestions, some may be obvious:
set the internal clock on the camera as close to the actual second as possible. If you set your DAW start time at the real time too instead of 0:00 that makes finding clips easy. you have a 24 hr clock on the DAW.
record at 48k
put up audience mics you can mix in since sometimes it can sound sort of studio-ish too clean and no reaction..
If you can get your hands on another camera, set up another angle. A one angle video can get pretty boring. Better yet, shoot some B-roll of the players: foot tapping, behind the band facing out, fingers on instruments, players faces, and audience reaction shots that can be re-used throughout the video. Even if not in sync you can fly in little cut-aways and add interest. You can even use iPhone video.

You get only once chance to get the lighting right..or at least better. Learn about 3 point lighting if you're not familiar. Watch out for weird LED ghost face front lighting. A couple soft boxes stage right and left go a long way. You've got the audio nailed but lighting will make or break the video side.

fill the frame.

learn how to custom white balance that camera to a white card help up in the actual lighting onstage.
Old 21st October 2013
  #34
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GZsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Crowley View Post
For a recording of what length? The longer the recording, the longer it takes to close the file and get ready to record again. IME, 15 seconds is FOREVER when you are trying not to miss anything.
The bluegrass band typically does songs of less than three minutes. My 60's band may do songs up to six minutes. Never had a problem between songs.

Again, you make a good point of not missing anything. We aren't trying to capture a full two set video. The goal is to get a couple of songs with decent audio posted on YouTube. That should be possible.

Thanks.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #35
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At the risk of me maybe having said too much already, Kel's suggestion of a second camera really can add to the finished video. Surely someone else in the group has someone that would shoot on a second camera? If you provide them with a SDHC card beforehand, they can just give you the card after the concert.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #36
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Richard Crowley's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
At the risk of maybe having said too much already, Kel's suggestion of a second camera really can add to the finished video. Surely someone else in the group has someone that would shoot on a second camera? If you provide them with a SDHC card beforehand, they can just give you the card after the concert.
Yes, absolutely! A few "B-roll", cut-away, audience-reaction, closeup shots would add a significant amount of "production value" vs. what you get from a single camera. Not that difficult to just paste them into the timeline in sync. And audience reaction shots, etc. don't even need to be "sync"!
Old 22nd October 2013
  #37
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GZsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Crowley View Post
Yes, absolutely! A few "B-roll", cut-away, audience-reaction, closeup shots would add a significant amount of "production value" vs. what you get from a single camera. Not that difficult to just paste them into the timeline in sync. And audience reaction shots, etc. don't even need to be "sync"!
That's a great idea. We can get another camera, I just need to round up a buddy to operate it. But I like the idea of giving the video some life.

Thanks again..
Old 22nd October 2013
  #38
Gear Maniac
 

Yep, the 2nd camera not only adds interest, it also makes fixing any sync issues much easier. You simply cut from camera to camera any time the sync starts to stray.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #39
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Electrolytic's Avatar
 

you always align video to audio, not the other way round.
Old 22nd October 2013
  #40
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Richard Crowley's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Electrolytic View Post
you always align video to audio, not the other way round.
Absolutely. Listen to the man!
Old 22nd October 2013
  #41
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Crowley View Post
Absolutely. Listen to the man!
Ditto all of the above...

Set the primary camera manually for the most pleasing skin-tones you can, and ask the lights tech to keep the level as consistent as he can.

Theatrical/rock'n'roll "effects" lighting encompasses a lot more level differences than "video" lighting (like extreme dynamic range on the audio side) and is rarely good for "simple" video. The effective dynamic range of a video camera locked to an exposure is orders of magnitude narrower than what the eye and brain can process in the room. Auto-iris control CANNOT deal effectively with back- and spot-lighting... both are relatively common onstage. Fleshtone MUST be the determining factor in the scene...

If the second camera can be used in "manual" mode, try to get as close as possible to the primary cam vis-a-vis exposure density and color balance.

Color balance issues: if the stage is lit primarily with theatrical lighting (oldskool dimmable filament ellipsoidal, Fresnel or PAR instruments) use the "bulb" or 3200k Tungsten setting on both. If a carbon arc spotlight (very blue-ish cold light, comparatively) is used in every scene, go to a "sun/open shade" daylight setting and let the rest of the stage go "warm". If the spotlight is a filament bulb, the settings for the theatrical lighting above will work. If the lighting is LEDs... the "sun" outdoor or "cloudy" outdoor setting will eliminate a lot of the blue cast when the lights go to white. Auto white balance (especially under LEDs) will wander like crazy as the cam tries to settle on what's actually "white" in the scene, and is most noticeable in fleshtones. Better to have the cams "locked" into a decent basic setting, allowing you to apply color correction only once to each entire clip, before cutting them. If the cams are the same type/brand/model, the same CC setting might well work for both at edit.

As to brightness/density... again, manual iris/gain is worlds better than auto, especially if the lighting is at all "active". Underexposure (dim/dark) video takes brightness/contrast tweaks better than washed-out/"blown" highlights... once the sensors/controllers run out of bits in the highlights, tweaks will only dim the "blown" white highlights to gray, with no discernible detail. If the main lighting is a nice, even "wash", simply setting the iris/gain to a pleasing level and letting the background/effects (I don't know if they'll use haze and movers) go where they will works. Fleshtone is paramount... everything else can go where it will, but blown, discolored or totally dark fleshtone is unforgivable... and usually irreparable..

One old guy's experience, and opinion. Mileage may vary.

HB
Old 22nd October 2013
  #42
KEL
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Some smart people here!

If you can scare up a camera or two...and an operator, it's nice to hide someone on stage to try and get solos. Just tell them to move as slow as possible! Any kind of smooth camera moves adds so much to the final. A monopod can be a poor mans stabilizer. I've gotten good b-roll during sound check with a single camera. I buy cheap 1080 camcorders off of Craigslist for this. It's surprising what you can find for $150-200.

That reminds me, set same frame rates on the cameras.
Old 26th October 2013
  #43
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Just get "pluraleyes" software from Red Giant. Best Monet you will ever spend.
Old 26th October 2013
  #44
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by GZsound View Post
...Since I only use plugins on final mastering I would only need them on a per song basis anyway. I can't imagine a "global" plug in that would work for every track in every song.

You must have a lot more horsepower than I have available.
I'm a "live multi-track" recordist. In mixdown, I add the needed effects- compression, eq, delay, reverb,etc- both on individual channels as well as sub-groups and the 2-buss. Once I have everything in place, I cut the show into pieces and go about tweaking the settings for each piece of music.

As for horsepower, I've been mixing in Pro Tools LE on a Mac G5 at home for years (having just recently built an upgraded rig). On my LE rig, I routinely record live 16 track sessions ranging up to several hours of continuous recording, as well as mixing sessions of up to 32 tracks; all audio, btw- no midi or processor intensive virtual instruments. Not sure what platform you are using, but the only time I have to wait for anything is the real-time stereo bounce.
Old 30th October 2013
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CompEq View Post

I had an HD rig crash mid-encore. Had to restart the computer and missed about two minutes of performance. (It was a rented rig) If you are 100% certain your equipment will not fail during the performance, by all means record the whole thing in one pass. If you're not sure, then use the start/stop at least a couple of times during the performance at least for peace of mind's sake..
I don't understand this. Are you saying your machine is less likely to crash if you start it and stop it a few times?
Old 30th October 2013
  #46
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CompEq View Post
Let me just throw in a little point/counterpoint in regards to recording from start to finish vs start/stop between songs. In a perfect world, start to finish is the way to go and do the editing later. Start/stop will take more time syncing audio and video.

[···]

If you can, do a trial run at a rehearsal performance to make sure there are no glitches.
I trial run the rig for at least a full day recording non stop or at least 4h blocks before a recording date. No problems. I also usually run a stereo feed to one camera as a backup, specially if recording 2 mics. When I used a netbook it stopped during a song, camera audio saved the last minute. It ran smoothly during the rest of the concert though.


Sent from my mobile device
Old 1st November 2013
  #47
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by saciestudio View Post
I trial run the rig for at least a full day recording non stop or at least 4h blocks before a recording date. No problems. I also usually run a stereo feed to one camera as a backup, specially if recording 2 mics. When I used a netbook it stopped during a song, camera audio saved the last minute. It ran smoothly during the rest of the concert though.


Sent from my mobile device
I never see the point of running it for a full day or for a prolonged period of time before a job. Maybe if it is a new piece of equipment or it is rented but every time you have a new job? All that does is wear down any mechanical items your rig may have (hard drives, power supplies etc), not to mention of course it is most likely not under concert conditions so anything that could cause an issue at the gig might not be flagged.

Obviously test it and make sure everything is running as it should, powering up, receiving/sending clean audio and the like but not for a full day.

Then of course there's the fact that sometimes things just die when you need them, which is why you always run a back up!
Old 20th November 2013
  #48
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Quote:
Originally Posted by saciestudio View Post
Record it all then export the songs separately after, it's what I do for long and large channel count multitracks. Then sync to a scratch audio bounce w/ full length, so that after you've mixed the separate songs you have a nice waveform cue, also a nicer audio to edit the video to while the finished mix isn't ready.

Sent from my mobile device
Yes i think this is perfect solution to record it all then export the songs separately after it. Can you please explain how to mixed the separate songs with waveform cue.
Old 20th November 2013
  #49
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Larry Elliott's Avatar
Doesn't anyone use timecode feeds to the cameras any longer?
Old 20th November 2013
  #50
KEL
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Elliott View Post
Doesn't anyone use timecode feeds to the cameras any longer?
Depends on what level gear you are using. Prosumer level doesn't have timecode jamming. Also for DAW recording there is typically no code too. I just did a 5 camera shoot, all consumer grade cameras. no code. Clack some drumsticks together and that's all I needed. Also, FCPX syncs from audio track pretty darn well.
Old 21st November 2013
  #51
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaden View Post
Yes i think this is perfect solution to record it all then export the songs separately after it. Can you please explain how to mixed the separate songs with waveform cue.
Had some beers... It would be illegal for me to drive, but I'll try to answer:

I usually export a first bounce with a rough mix or even a "faders at unity" without plugins which may (or may not) sound better than the camera audio. It is an option for me to cut picture to if I want. I usually prefer it to camera audio.
I use the waveforms to sync, if I need to export individual songs to do a more complex mix (not always needed), I export the fully mixed bounce, be it of the full lenght or just one song, and sync with the first or last attack, or any part of the content which is best to check sync. It usually turns out perfect, sometimes I do nudge a take or two some frames if something seems odd.
Old 21st November 2013
  #52
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Walker View Post
I never see the point of running it for a full day or for a prolonged period of time before a job. Maybe if it is a new piece of equipment or it is rented but every time you have a new job? All that does is wear down any mechanical items your rig may have (hard drives, power supplies etc), not to mention of course it is most likely not under concert conditions so anything that could cause an issue at the gig might not be flagged.

Obviously test it and make sure everything is running as it should, powering up, receiving/sending clean audio and the like but not for a full day.

Then of course there's the fact that sometimes things just die when you need them, which is why you always run a back up!
I do it as a test run, if it fails to record straight on studio conditions, it will most likely fail at the gig. The netbook, it used to record for one hour or more then it would stop, so I took it to the gig and kept my eye on it. On the first song, it stopped. I ran backstage and pressed record again, it went fine to the end of the concert. Thankfully I was aware that it could stop because I tested it THAT long. (At the time, it was the only equipment I could take other than connecting the preamp out to the camera directly)

The rig I use now haven't ever stopped, but I need to use the notebook for video and internet, so it's always nice to prepare it, freeing space/backing stuff up and recording for some time to make sure it is all running nice, at least at home.
Old 21st November 2013
  #53
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GZsound's Avatar
Well, last weekend I recorded the performance. However, since one of the musicians has had a recent hip replacement and was using a stool, there was no video shot.

I did a combination of recording several songs as one take and then recording each song to it's own folder, which my recorder does automatically.

It wasn't difficult to import the continuous tracks, edit them and separate them into individual songs but it took several more steps than simply importing each song from it's own folder and editing, mixing down, etc.

I figured the average time between stopping after a song, letting the recorder write to the drive and starting it again took less than 15 seconds.

And by the way, I got an excellent recording.
Old 21st November 2013
  #54
Gear Maniac
 

Just to clarify, I usually mix it all in one session, then when I have to automate stuff or put more complex effects I just "Save As" and delete the rest of the show, keeping only the song I want to work on. For me, it saves a lot of time not having to import each song to a template, and helps to sound uniform across the show. But of course, workflow is a very particular thing so if you like yours, keep it.

Sent from my mobile device
Old 22nd November 2013
  #55
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timothyclee's Avatar
 

If needing to line up manually the drummers 4 clicks counting of song work well.

Tim
Old 22nd November 2013
  #56
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GZsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by timothyclee View Post
If needing to line up manually the drummers 4 clicks counting of song work well.

Tim
Yeah...especially in a bluegrass band.
Old 22nd November 2013
  #57
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I don't know the personalities involved, but for one of the players to be playing after hip surgery, I'd probably have shot the video as a testament to his or her determination. But if he said, don't video me because I'm in a terrible shape, I understand.
Old 23rd November 2013
  #58
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GZsound's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
I don't know the personalities involved, but for one of the players to be playing after hip surgery, I'd probably have shot the video as a testament to his or her determination. But if he said, don't video me because I'm in a terrible shape, I understand.
The decision came from the leader who didn't think it fit their image. Being as she is my wife I decided she was right.... Her banjo player probably wouldn't have cared. He's the incarnation of Jerry Garcia.
Old 23rd November 2013
  #59
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You are a most wise man.
Old 23rd November 2013
  #60
https://vimeo.com/80030278

This is what I had last week with Panasonic GH3 14-45mm zoom.
Mics were Senn MKH8020 A/B going into DAV BG2-UFX, and the video was 50Mbps, MOV, 30 fps progressive.

Motion is slightly 'clunky', and I guess because 30p. Next time, I have to try with 60p.
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