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Faulkner Arrays!
Old 26th May 2012
  #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
When I run my attempts at this array I have my omni's at the Williams chart spacing for omnis, ~40cm, and an ORTF or MS between them.
Cher Boojum,

Running AB @ 40cm results in an SRA of ±70 degrees!? Nowhere near the ±48 degrees of ORTF.

But you seem to yield good results. I might try that this evening. Either that or my jecklin-discy-thinggy.

Paul

Last edited by Bibster; 26th May 2012 at 04:16 PM.. Reason: 48, not 46 degrees
Old 26th May 2012
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bibster View Post
Cher Boojum,

Running AB @ 40cm results in an SRA of ±70 degrees!? Nowhere near the ±48 degrees of ORTF.

But you seem to yield good results. I might try that this evening. Either that or my jecklin-discy-thinggy.

Paul
Paul - My escape is "about" 40cm. LOL Actually it is wider, which gets the SRA desired. I will remember that in the future when speaking about the AB distance. My bad; sorry.

Sandy
Old 30th May 2012
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
There's an interesting paper by Williams (an 1992 AES publication) available here, which throws new possible light onto an alternate dual mic pair, this time involving low passing an omni pair at 700Hz and high passing an ORTF pair at the same frequency, and then combining their outputs.
"Frequency Dependent Hybrid Microphone Arrays for Stereophonic Sound Recording" is the paper and you can find it here: http://www.mmad.info/Collected%20Pap...2%20pages).pdf
Just wondering if this is actually a way to extract the 'strengths' of each of the 2 mic pairs on the single support bar, and minimize their weaknesses ? Seems a bit akin to a crossover in a speaker cabinet, where you have 2 or 3 drivers working at their best within the frequency ranges they were designed for, and a good attempt to make the crossover point between them as invisible as possible ?
Old 30th May 2012
  #34
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I had tried this with the 4061/Mk4-Mk8 combo and found that the sheen and sparkle of the 4061's was worthy enough to remain. I really like the high end of the DPA 4061's. I do not remove the screens for a flat response when taping in a saloon as it is not a pristine venue.

I did remove the screens when recording a chorale doing the Fauré Requiem. I did not use high pass or low pass filters with the Requiem, either. Maybe I should have played with it. I have the masters and can go back and try it. There was so little bass that I think it would make little difference. The center pair was an Mk4 ORTF.

I would hope that others play around with a setup like these. There really is nothing to lose as you needn't use the tracks if you do not like them and as they are all on one mic stand it is almost no extra effort. It is just the additional two channels.
Old 30th May 2012
  #35
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My go-to starting point has become Gefell M296s at 40-50cm ("toed out" on the ends of a 30cm bar) with a pair of Sennheiser MKH8040 in ORTF/NOS on the middle. The stubby little 8040 bodies attached to right-angle XLRFs make ORTF a lot easier to construct, btw.

HB
Old 30th May 2012
  #36
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Here is one recent iteration of an array... IIRC, the mix was Sennheisers (in a NOS at 90 degrees), with the Gefells at -6dB.

You can hear (and see) a sample of the results here:

Little Fugue - Kleine Fuge - Encore - YouTube

Thanks to NorseHorse for the gig, and the video edit!

HB
Attached Thumbnails
Faulkner Arrays!-dscf5811.jpg  
Old 30th May 2012
  #37
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
My go-to starting point has become Gefell M296s at 40-50cm ("toed out" on the ends of a 30cm bar) with a pair of Sennheiser MKH8040 in ORTF/NOS on the middle. The stubby little 8040 bodies attached to right-angle XLRFs make ORTF a lot easier to construct, btw.

HB
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
Here is one recent iteration of an array... IIRC, the mix was Sennheisers, with the Gefells at -6dB.

You can hear (and see) a sample of the results here:

Little Fugue - Kleine Fuge - Encore - YouTube

Thanks to NorseHorse for the gig, and the video edit!

HB
Great set of mics and a good sounding video - congratulations.
Old 30th May 2012
  #38
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hi everybody,

I try to follow your debates about mic arrays, and it's very interresting.
But i've a quite little question about the SRA you're all talking about, can someone help me with it on this thread?
thank you very much an go on with the tech talk
Old 31st May 2012
  #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by piotr.brandyiev View Post
hi everybody,

I try to follow your debates about mic arrays, and it's very interresting.
But i've a quite little question about the SRA you're all talking about, can someone help me with it on this thread?
thank you very much an go on with the tech talk
As The Listener says, SRA is one-half to total included angle of your recording field. Check out this paper: http://www.reddingaudio.com/download...nic%20Zoom.pdf
Old 31st May 2012
  #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
Here is one recent iteration of an array... IIRC, the mix was Sennheisers, with the Gefells at -6dB.

You can hear (and see) a sample of the results here:

Little Fugue - Kleine Fuge - Encore - YouTube

Thanks to NorseHorse for the gig, and the video edit!

HB
Lovely. Did you get the cellist's phone number?
Old 31st May 2012
  #41
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Hi hpbphotoav,
what are the mic clips shown in your photo? Are they a Gefell product? do they fit the 8040s well?
Old 31st May 2012
  #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by njrsound View Post
Hi hpbphotoav,
what are the mic clips shown in your photo? Are they a Gefell product? do they fit the 8040s well?
They are OnStage MY-320. They don't isolate as well as Shure Donuts and certainly not as well as Rycote Lyres (which I want), but they're better than a hard mount. I really like the MY-325s for SM57s and 58s. They (and the -320s) drop floor rumble and table-stand shuffling noise a good 10dB. And... they hold on tight.

Shop online for them... can be had for $10-15.00 US.
Old 31st May 2012
  #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
Lovely. Did you get the cellist's phone number?
Somewhere in Switzerland...
Old 31st May 2012
  #44
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Exclamation

Ok, here's the first mixdown (no processing) of an excerpt from the Britten Rejoice in the Lamb in the Cathedral. I used the 4 mic array, with the 4003's down by 3.5dB, and the MRP-01 ribbons in the parallel figure-8 array 1.2dB down. No soloist mic or Superlux ribbons. The Recording Tools MRP-01 has great low end response - almost as good as my 4003 omni's! Listen to the pedal notes. Those inexpensive ribbons have balls!

I can post this clip with just the 4 mic array or just the figure-8 array (one pair at a time).

I was at least 4m back with the 4 mic array and 8m with the figure-8. Now that I hear it, I could have been another 2-3m back with the front array, but I was already behind the conductor's platform and 4 rows into the pews. The riser arrangement was odd, in that because of the limited space they were layed out in an open "V" rather than a semi-circle. This accounts for the more drastic left/right spread of the choir.
Attached Thumbnails
Faulkner Arrays!-cimg2657.jpg  
Attached Files

Britten excerpt.mp3 (8.92 MB, 2889 views)

Old 31st May 2012
  #45
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Mike, that is a nice one. Regarding the ribbons, are you sure they are the bottom end and not the DPA's? I would expect the DPA's to carry the weight for sure. But the $150 ribbons? That would be remarkable.
Old 31st May 2012
  #46
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
Mike, that is a nice one. Regarding the ribbons, are you sure they are the bottom end and not the DPA's? I would expect the DPA's to carry the weight for sure. But the $150 ribbons? That would be remarkable.
When I solo'd the ribbons, they were almost as good as the DPA's. I looked at the waveform to make sure - yep, lots of LF on those tracks! The Superlux didn't even come close and it's an active ribbon. I wonder if I can put some Lundahl transformers in these...

Doyen at AudioHipster sang their praises when he sent them out to me. I think he's on to something.

http://www.audiohipster.com/AudioHip...dio_Sales.html
Old 31st May 2012
  #47
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenor39 View Post
When I solo'd the ribbons, they were almost as good as the DPA's. I looked at the waveform to make sure - yep, lots of LF on those tracks! The Superlux didn't even come close and it's an active ribbon. I wonder if I can put some Lundahl transformers in these...

Doyen at AudioHipster sang their praises when he sent them out to me. I think he's on to something.

Pro Audio Sales
I am sure that the Lundahls will work. After all, there are xformers in there now and Lundahl makes a lot of money by replacing "what is there." Would you post a clip of just the ribbons? I would love to hear what they sound like solo. Thanks!
Old 31st May 2012
  #48
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Hi

For the first time I want to record a concert of a soul choir(50 voices)+band in a hall for 500 seats. For they use a PA,which I don't want to record too much, I am thinking of using this 4-mic Array flying over and in front of the choir for direct signals of the choir plus some signals from the FOH-mixer (solo singer, instruments).
I am a bit irritated, because I thought (and learned from E.Sengpiels papers), that in a small AB with omnis, the omnis should be placed parallel, but in the pics I saw in this thread, the omnis always look a little bit to the outside. What is the reason for that?
Also I am still undecided, wether to use cardioids(Neumann KM 140) or wide cardioids (CM3) for the ORTF/NOS configuration. My omnis for the small AB will be Neumann-Gfell MV692 with M58 capsules.
Any ideas how to optimize this setup?

Thanks for your input
Ron
Old 31st May 2012
  #49
Hi Ron

Most omni's are at least slightly directional at high frequencies, so angling them out can create some intensity differences (at least at HF).

If your goal is to have the ability to get more direct choir sound while rejecting some of the hall, you may be better off using the cardioids instead of the wide-cards.

That being said, in your case (and depending on the size of the choir), you might be better off doing area mic'ing with 4 or 5 cardioids across the front rather than going for a specific stereo technique.
Old 31st May 2012
  #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tenor39 View Post
Ok, here's the first mixdown (no processing) of an excerpt from the Britten Rejoice in the Lamb in the Cathedral. I used the 4 mic array, with the 4003's down by 3.5dB, and the MRP-01 ribbons in the parallel figure-8 array 1.2dB down.
Excuse my my ignorance, but just to get the record straight: you used the 4-mic array (ortf+omnis) with the omnis 3.5dB down, AND the 'original' faulkner array of parallel 8's 1.2dB down? (Assuming similar recording levels for all 6 channels)

Impressive low end ! Could we be treated a ribbons only version?
Old 31st May 2012
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bibster View Post
Excuse my my ignorance, but just to get the record straight: you used the 4-mic array (ortf+omnis) with the omnis 3.5dB down, AND the 'original' faulkner array of parallel 8's 1.2dB down? (Assuming similar recording levels for all 6 channels)

Impressive low end ! Could we be treated a ribbons only version?
Yes, so I could compare the two types of arrays. I'll post both sets of ribbons by themselves, along with the 4-mic array by itself.
Old 31st May 2012
  #52
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Exclamation

Here are the separate arrays. Very interesting to compare.

The first one is the firgure-8 array with the Superlux R102 mkII active ribbon. 1.8 micron to 18Khz. Nicely detailed, but lacking the bottom end of the MRP-01. Almost sounds like it has a presence bump in the response.

Second is the Recording Tools MRP-01 in the figure-8 array. 1.8 micron passive to 18Khz. Huge bottom end, but softer than the R102 mkII.

Last is the 4-mic array, with DPA 4012's in ORTF and 4003's as the outside omni's.
Attached Files

Britten excerpt - Superlux.mp3 (8.92 MB, 3093 views)

Britten excerpt - Recording Tools.mp3 (8.92 MB, 2829 views)

Britten excerpt - DPA Array.mp3 (8.92 MB, 2765 views)

Old 1st June 2012
  #53
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$300 worth of mics! Get outta town! Those Recording Tools mics are pretty respectable. I assume they are mainland Chinese; is that correct?
Old 1st June 2012
  #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
$300 worth of mics! Get outta town! Those Recording Tools mics are pretty respectable. I assume they are mainland Chinese; is that correct?
Nope. A partnering effort by the German Recording Tools company (design, quality control) and Chinese (manufacturing) company, Headed up by Oktava! Call Doyen up. He'll ship you a pair to try.
Old 16th June 2013
  #55
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graphic from the interview

Attached Thumbnails
Faulkner Arrays!-unknown.jpeg  
Old 18th November 2013
  #56
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I tried my version of a 4 mic array recently with a baroque chamber ensemble plus 4 voice chorus. Due to audience seating constraints (what's new ?) the mic stand had to be located level with the front row pew seating, which meant the 7 piece ensemble was almost directly below and to the left and right of the mics. Singers were behind the players, on 3 or 4 steps height. Array was a pair of MKH8020 omnis, 38 cm width, and inside these a pair of CM3's @ 23 cms spacing and 60 degree angle.

To complicate matters, in the Trio sonata (adagio here as audio sample) the flute and recorder were much closer to the mics. I ended up pushing either the omnis or the CM3s up around 7 dB higher than the other pair, for different configurations/placements of musicians and singers. The method may not be the ideal placement for either mic pair, but the ability to mix and blend the pairs in post gives you some degree of ambience control and 'zoom in' ability. I also had a U89 as cello spot, but as it turned out the overhead omnis pulled in plenty of cello on their own.....
Mic Preamp was DAV BG8.

I'll post some audio samples here for you.....
Old 19th November 2013
  #57
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marking thread
Old 4th January 2014
  #58
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More MRP-01 samlpes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenor39 View Post
Here are the separate arrays. Very interesting to compare.

The first one is the firgure-8 array with the Superlux R102 mkII active ribbon. 1.8 micron to 18Khz. Nicely detailed, but lacking the bottom end of the MRP-01. Almost sounds like it has a presence bump in the response.

Second is the Recording Tools MRP-01 in the figure-8 array. 1.8 micron passive to 18Khz. Huge bottom end, but softer than the R102 mkII.

Last is the 4-mic array, with DPA 4012's in ORTF and 4003's as the outside omni's.
Hello Mike,

Thanks for sharing those files.

I listened to the Recording Tools MRP-01 in the figure-8 array particularly.

Sounds pretty decent.

I don't hold any ribbon mic yet and I think I need one at least.

I could be interested in the MRP-01 solution : a single one or a pair.

According to the specifications self-noise is 10 dBA (which is pretty good for a ribbon), Max input SPL 140 dB.

Also, the cost here is 95 euros (equivalent $129 / £79).

By any chance could you please upload more samples done with this microphone (single or pair) ?

I really appreciate your time !

Thanks.

Serge
Old 5th January 2014
  #59
Gear Addict
Careful with those noise specs; I have a pair of rec.tools mc700s and while fine sounding mics, at 15dB self noise they sound actually quite a bit noisier then, say, my oktava 012's (which spec. 18dB).
Old 6th January 2014
  #60
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Quote:
Originally Posted by heva View Post
Careful with those noise specs; I have a pair of rec.tools mc700s and while fine sounding mics, at 15dB self noise they sound actually quite a bit noisier then, say, my oktava 012's (which spec. 18dB).
Ok...thanks for the information.

Listening back to Mike's Recording Tools MRP-01 figure-8 array sample, I don't hear that much "hiss".
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