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Jazz Trio Recording brainteaser...... Dynamic Microphones
Old 27th May 2006
  #1
Gear Nut
 
JazzYoda's Avatar
 

Question Jazz Trio Recording brainteaser......

Here's a clip from a session soundcheck, the complete take will never be released. Mic levels were still being set, and the take is incomplete.

Questions:

1. what was the microphone setup?
2. what was the 'approximate' recording chain?
3. what type of room?

Extra Credit:

1. what is this tune?
2. who are these players? (this one is extreme extra credit) lol

Any other suggestions for brainteaser questions welcome!

P.S - anyone who was there don't say anything!!!
Attached Files

Pno_trio_train_clip.mp3 (1.19 MB, 1712 views)

Old 27th May 2006
  #2
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tas chris's Avatar
the tune is "take the a train" i guess
Old 29th May 2006
  #3
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JazzYoda's Avatar
 

bump.


Should I either post this in another thread or just not do this sort of thing?
Old 29th May 2006
  #4
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Midlandmorgan's Avatar
 

Sounds very nice...simpled down version of Take the A Train...

As far as guessing what was where, I really don't like these sorts of things....just tell us what you used and how you used it....there are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many variables, so many techniques that call all provide superlative sound, so we could be playing guessing games for 5 pages before someone stumbled onto it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzYoda
bump.


Should I either post this in another thread or just not do this sort of thing?
Old 29th May 2006
  #5
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JazzYoda's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Midlandmorgan
Sounds very nice...simpled down version of Take the A Train...

As far as guessing what was where, I really don't like these sorts of things....just tell us what you used and how you used it....there are soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many variables, so many techniques that call all provide superlative sound, so we could be playing guessing games for 5 pages before someone stumbled onto it.
Ok fair enough. My mistake thinking that guessing games might be fun. (I would have had fun :P)

Before I had the ill-concieved brainteaser idea this was going to be called "How to Record a Jazz Trio with only 3 microphones".

I used a Lawson L47 on the piano, about a foot or so above the mid treble holes, Lawson L47 on the drums, facing him and AKG D12 on the bass, pointed at a spot just below the bridge.

The band was set up in a sort of semi-circle in a large room, Kaufmann Astoria Studio.

No signal processing or reverb was used, at all. The mics were run through an Ampex MX-35 straight to final tape: Ampex 351 1/2" at 30 ips. None of the studio electronics at KAS were used except as a monitor controller to listen to the music through the B&W 801s.
Old 29th May 2006
  #6
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(sorry if I came off to brusk...wasn't my intention)

Now THAT's great information...I do a lot of remote recording of small jazz trios, etc, and would have never thought to use a semi-circle approach...Coolness! I've tried the single mic/drums before, but haven't gotten your level of success (yet) - my Peluso 2247 came pretty close, but not quite there...

Love to hear the whole thing event sometime...
Old 29th May 2006
  #7
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I tired a D112 on bass before and I found the cymbals that were bleeding in to sound awful. Did you have a lot of bleed into it?
Old 29th May 2006
  #8
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ajfarber's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by leddy
I tired a D112 on bass before and I found the cymbals that were bleeding in to sound awful. Did you have a lot of bleed into it?
D12 not D112. The D12 is the older one. It looks like a box. The D112 looks like a football (American football) with a green stripe on it.

In this case the bass mic didn't matter much. It could have been an RE20 or Beyer M88 or RCA44. The point was, 3 mics for a jazz trio. Recording in a great big room (good sounding not an aeroplane hanger) is more important than what slutty mics are used.

You don't get too much bleed in a great room. If it were a home studio we might need a gobo.
Old 29th May 2006
  #9
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this photo shows a bass next to the drums. The bass was recorded with an OKTAVA ML52 ribbon. No bass direct. The bleed wasn't an issue.

Notice that we're in some cat's livingroom, not a studio.
Attached Thumbnails
Jazz Trio Recording brainteaser......-dsc_0009.jpg  
Old 30th May 2006
  #10
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JazzYoda's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by leddy
I tired a D112 on bass before and I found the cymbals that were bleeding in to sound awful. Did you have a lot of bleed into it?
We got very little bleed into the bass mic (it is a D-12E, not a D-112). Actually, a bit more bleed would have been ok. Maybe make the instruments sound slightly closer together.

This thing was actually recorded a few years ago but still has not been released. I hope it can get out there soon.
Old 30th May 2006
  #11
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Jim vanBergen's Avatar
 

Maybe its just me... but

The brainteaser concept is cool, but me, I'm VERY hesitant to say "wow, I would have guessed a Shure '57" or "a Gefell U57" when what was used was the opposite end of the spectrum, and really piss off the engineer who bled to make it sound as good as it possibly could, y'know? If I posted a WAV. file of one of my orchestral recordings and someone said it sounded like a single stereo pair of Chinese SDCs at the back of a hall going to an MBox/Ibook, I'd be wickedly pissed and consider slitting my wrists, you know?

I DO think your setup was appropriately slutty. Got pics of the KAS gig and the Ampex console? How were the mic pres in it?

Oh, WHO WERE the players, since you wanted us to guess? To me, it sounded like Ramsey Lewis doing a warmup tune (I hope that is a compliment.)

Jim
Old 30th May 2006
  #12
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ajfarber's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen
The brainteaser concept is cool, but me, I'm VERY hesitant to say "wow, I would have guessed a Shure '57" or "a Gefell U57" when what was used was the opposite end of the spectrum, and really piss off the engineer who bled to make it sound as good as it possibly could, y'know? If I posted a WAV. file of one of my orchestral recordings and someone said it sounded like a single stereo pair of Chinese SDCs at the back of a hall going to an MBox/Ibook, I'd be wickedly pissed and consider slitting my wrists, you know?

I DO think your setup was appropriately slutty. Got pics of the KAS gig and the Ampex console? How were the mic pres in it?

Oh, WHO WERE the players, since you wanted us to guess? To me, it sounded like Ramsey Lewis doing a warmup tune (I hope that is a compliment.)

Jim
AMPEX mixer was an MX35. You know what an MX35 looks like. It's got 4 pic pres and 2 outs. Each channel has a switch: A, B, or A+B


The first two choruses of the piano solo was from Duke Ellington's "A" Train intro on the LP "Ellington Uptown" Columbia" ML 4639 ca.1951

after that the "pianist"(a saxophonist in real life) played his own sh#t. He dosn't own any Ramsey Lewis recordings. Sounds more like Red Garland after a stroke.
Old 30th May 2006
  #13
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JazzYoda's Avatar
 

haha

I guess it's obvious who from here was there...

The other players were Paul Gill on bass and Clarence "Tootsie" Bean on drums.


I can take pics of my Ampex rig tomorrow or something and post them. Unfortunately nobody brought a camera to Master Sound that day :(
Old 30th May 2006
  #14
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Yannick's Avatar
 

Really nice recording. I only wish we had more musicians here that still want that sound.

What I would really like to know is : which piano did you use ? How old ?
Old 30th May 2006
  #15
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JazzYoda's Avatar
 

Mason and Hamlin A, from the early 20th century.

Thanks for the compliment!
Old 30th May 2006
  #16
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ajfarber's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzYoda
Mason and Hamlin A, from the early 20th century.

Thanks for the compliment!
Wasn't it a Mason&Hamlin AA?

The "A" is just under 6' and the "Double A"(if you'll pardon the expression) is closer to 6'2" .
Old 30th May 2006
  #17
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JazzYoda's Avatar
 

yeah i guess it was an AA
Old 2nd June 2006
  #18
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JazzYoda's Avatar
 

Forgot to take the pic..here it is....
Attached Thumbnails
Jazz Trio Recording brainteaser......-ampex_01.jpg  
Old 2nd June 2006
  #19
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JazzYoda's Avatar
 

and the mixers....
Attached Thumbnails
Jazz Trio Recording brainteaser......-tubemixers.jpg  
Old 7th April 2009
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
Dave Ferris's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JazzYoda View Post
Ok fair enough. My mistake thinking that guessing games might be fun. (I would have had fun :P)

Before I had the ill-concieved brainteaser idea this was going to be called "How to Record a Jazz Trio with only 3 microphones".

I used a Lawson L47 on the piano, about a foot or so above the mid treble holes, Lawson L47 on the drums, facing him and AKG D12 on the bass, pointed at a spot just below the bridge.

The band was set up in a sort of semi-circle in a large room, Kaufmann Astoria Studio.

No signal processing or reverb was used, at all. The mics were run through an Ampex MX-35 straight to final tape: Ampex 351 1/2" at 30 ips. None of the studio electronics at KAS were used except as a monitor controller to listen to the music through the B&W 801s.
We don't need no stinkin' computer.

Very nice!
Old 7th April 2009
  #21
Lives for gear
 

The drum bleed in the piano mic is perfect it places the drums nice that you heard a bit of reverberance on the left side. The bass sounds nice too. The piano sounds pretty good, though it's mostly the playing that has me not liking it. He has a bit of a heavy hand to put it lightly! Really cool setup man. Has that old blue note feel to it.
Old 8th April 2009
  #22
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MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 

which L47?

Nice!

Were the Lawson mics the FET or MP model?

I have a pair of FETs but don't get them out enough.
Old 9th April 2009
  #23
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ajfarber's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fallforward View Post
The drum bleed in the piano mic is perfect it places the drums nice that you heard a bit of reverberance on the left side. The bass sounds nice too. The piano sounds pretty good, though it's mostly the playing that has me not liking it. He has a bit of a heavy hand to put it lightly! Really cool setup man. Has that old blue note feel to it.
I was the piano player. I am actually a saxophone player so I take no offence at the comments. I was, however, starting off with Duke Ellington's solo from the LP "Uptown".
Old 9th April 2009
  #24
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ajfarber's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelPatrick View Post
Nice!

Were the Lawson mics the FET or MP model?

I have a pair of FETs but don't get them out enough.
The Lawson's are the tube model.
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