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CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 5th May 2012
  #241
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
Another shoot-out including Line Audio CM3, Josephson C42, Schoeps CMC621 and DPA 4021.
Sound surprisingly equal - I think I prefer 1 and 4 here on my hd580 Sennheiser headphones...

::
Mads
Old 5th May 2012
  #242
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
Another shoot-out including Line Audio CM3, Josephson C42, Schoeps CMC621 and DPA 4021.
In order of preference:
3 - sounds full and with a lot of room. Sounds beautiful and perhaps a little dark
1 - sounds not as full and a little hyped in the higher mids
4 - pretty much the same as nr1. A little more thin and "hard"-sounding
2 - don't like it. Sounds muffled and "nasal"

Anyway they all could work out fine and I could really be very happy with 1,3 and 4

I actually think 3 is CM3 I have two and love them

Nice shoot out!
Old 5th May 2012
  #243
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
Another shoot-out including Line Audio CM3, Josephson C42, Schoeps CMC621 and DPA 4021.
My order of preference:
4 - most air and depth; every time I click it, it's like I can breathe again. Maybe a little clinical;
3 - very nice too;
1 - a bit duller and flatter than 3, but still no major problem;
2 - chokes me.
Old 5th May 2012
  #244
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
Another shoot-out including Line Audio CM3, Josephson C42, Schoeps CMC621 and DPA 4021.
My order of preference:
4) Clearest, smoothest, most enjoyable.
2) Here's where I differ with the other responders so far: I found this to sound more detailed than 1, with a nice weight to the sound. I actually thought 3 sounded more nasal.
3) A nice fullness to the sound, but a little more muffled and nasal to my ears.
1) The least clear, and a mostly muffled sound, although not bad by any means.

They all could easily work for a recording.
I like to guess which ones are which because I find it fun and I'm not worried about looking like a fool on the www
It's the order you listed them in: CM3, C42, CMC621, & 4021.

Brian
Old 5th May 2012
  #245
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by CGBrian.M View Post
It's the order you listed them in: CM3, C42, CMC621, & 4021.
Old 5th May 2012
  #246
So didier which one(s) do you prefer yourself?

Obviously it very much depends on what you want to use the sounds for. I like 3 best because it sounded musical and almost "finished". Just a hint of eq and off you go!
Old 5th May 2012
  #247
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

Let me first summarize the rankings expressed here above and by PM:

C42 > CMC 621 > 4021 > CM3 (PM, CMC 621 and 4021 well identified)
CM3 and 4021
CMC 61 > CM3 > 4021 > C42
4021 > CMC 621 > CM3 > C42
4021 > C42 > CMC 621 > CM3

I hear the CM3 being closer to the CMC 621 than to the 4021, but a bit less refined. The C42 is elsewhere because of its 6 kHz bump (which could be EQed out). However it is a nice mic with fast transient response.
For this Chopin piece, I would select the DPA among these 4 mics.
Old 6th May 2012
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
Let me first summarize the rankings expressed here above and by PM:

C42 > CMC 621 > 4021 > CM3 (PM, CMC 621 and 4021 well identified)
CM3 and 4021
CMC 61 > CM3 > 4021 > C42
4021 > CMC 621 > CM3 > C42
4021 > C42 > CMC 621 > CM3

I hear the CM3 being closer to the CMC 621 than to the 4021, but a bit less refined. The C42 is elsewhere because of its 6 kHz bump (which could be EQed out). However it is a nice mic with fast transient response.
For this Chopin piece, I would select the DPA among these 4 mics.
If the DPA doesn't sound noticeably better than the CM3, I would be really disappointed as it sells for many times the price of a CM3.
Old 6th May 2012
  #249
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polytope View Post
If the DPA doesn't sound noticeably better than the CM3, I would be really disappointed as it sells for many times the price of a CM3.
Dissapointed in realizing price is not a performance parameter? :-)

Most of my mic's cost ten times the CM3 but I happily use them side by side.

A Rolex costs a hundred times more than a no name sport watch but it's not even a tiny bit better at showing you the correct time.

/Peter
Old 6th May 2012
  #250
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by polytope View Post
If the DPA doesn't sound noticeably better than the CM3,
It did in this test according to 4 people (including myself). Only one person had the opposite mind.
Old 6th May 2012
  #251
Gear Nut
 

I prefer no4 DPA and no3 Schoeps. No1 Line Audio is less "clear" compared to 3 and 4. No2 has a little too much high freq. DPA is the winner for me with the "cleanest" sound, but Schoeps is a very close second.
Old 6th May 2012
  #252
ksm
Gear Head
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Well I prefer not to give an availability date as I don't have one but the OM-1 should be in stock by the end of summer. The proto exists and performs very well. When its ready it's going to be a killer little Omni, with a flat response so I guess the whole free-field/diffuse field discussion will rise again... noise will be good for a flat response omni, certainly lower than some other popular omnis currently on the market. Small size as usual and the accessories will be the typical CM3 ones. Price to be determined but in the same range as the CM3. That's all I have for now. PM me for a photo of the prototype...
Wow! That's great news!
Btw. Jean-Pol I bought a pair of CM3 from you few months ago and I've been really happy with them.

- Niko Laasonen
Old 6th May 2012
  #253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Dissapointed in realizing price is not a performance parameter? :-)

Most of my mic's cost ten times the CM3 but I happily use them side by side.

A Rolex costs a hundred times more than a no name sport watch but it's not even a tiny bit better at showing you the correct time.

/Peter
heh I just wish there was a CM3 of the SD 788T! Is there any really great 4-track portable recorder under 500 Euros?
Old 6th May 2012
  #254
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So close

I need better cans (I'm using MDR-V6). They all sound so close! I can't say I dislike any of the 4.

EDIT: 2 sounds a bit weird. Not sure how to describe it. But the rest I like.
Old 6th May 2012
  #255
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jpgerard's Avatar
Hi Niko! Happy to hear that they're performing for you. The CM3 is one of those rare mics that seems to be loved by every new owner... which probably explains why they're pretty much never available second hand.
Old 6th May 2012
  #256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polytope View Post
heh I just wish there was a CM3 of the SD 788T! Is there any really great 4-track portable recorder under 500 Euros?
Me too :-) I don't mean to say that quality is not often costly. The 788T-SSD is the single piece in my audio and video kit that cost the most but all that performance in that small package makes it worth it. Actually I think the 788 and CM3 is the two most amazing pieces in my kit.


/Peter
Old 6th May 2012
  #257
Love the Cm3 actually these tests while generous , are not with our gear in our room with our technique.
Without those elements we get a very general idea at best.
I can say I love my pair of cm3's.
Old 6th May 2012
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Hi Niko! Happy to hear that they're performing for you. The CM3 is one of those rare mics that seems to be loved by every new owner... which probably explains why they're pretty much never available second hand.
Yes, the only exception I'm aware of being the pair I sold to a friend some time ago... only to buy a quad of the new version. :-)

/Peter
Old 6th May 2012
  #259
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Line Audio CM3 and Naiant XW on chamber choir

Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
SWAG:

Naiant = #1
Line CM3 = #2
That's correct :-)
What does swag mean?

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
"Il est bel et bon" music and recording.
I think it's the CM3.
That is correct, thanks :-)

Peter.
Old 6th May 2012
  #260
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
Another shoot-out including Line Audio CM3, Josephson C42, Schoeps CMC621 and DPA 4021.
I hear 4 very nice recordings. Maybe throughout the recording I would prefer nr. 4 (and then 10 minutes later I don't ...). Could you also record some music with more extreme dynamics? I wouldn't mind :-)

Peter.

Last edited by hendriks; 7th May 2012 at 10:17 AM.. Reason: Cosmetic reason :-)
Old 7th May 2012
  #261
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendriks View Post
That's correct :-)
What does swag mean?



That is correct, thanks :-)

Peter.
Stupid/Silly
Wild
Ass
Guess

Old 7th May 2012
  #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
Stupid/Silly
Wild
Ass
Guess

Okay, thanks. I couldn't find a decisive answer with Google.

How come you guessed right, what did you hear?
Peter.
Old 7th May 2012
  #263
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The Listener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by polytope View Post
If the DPA doesn't sound noticeably better than the CM3, I would be really disappointed as it sells for many times the price of a CM3.
When I compared them to DPA 4011A and 4006A, the DPA mics were not noticeably better, just slightly - a bit faster transients, a bit clearer picture, a bit more reach into the details - most noticeable on the depth of reverb those mics captured a bit better, etc. But actually - to be fair - with a bit of EQ they would be hard to guess in a blind test.

I too liked no.4 the most in those piano recordings, but it is astonishing enough that a mic that costs 250 EUR per pair doesn't sound out of place in the group of mics costing over 2000 EUR per pair.

I really wonder if DPA and Schoeps, Neumann, etc. COULD re-consider their pricing policy - at least dropping the price for 50% - they would still be much more expensive than CM3, but at least a bit more realistic pricing - around 700 - 800 EUR per mic... I guess until people are still buying such overpriced mics, they have no reason to lower the prices.
Old 7th May 2012
  #264
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jpgerard's Avatar
Well don't forget that, as I said before, one of the main reasons Line Audio products aren't expensive is that there's no distributor involved. Roger makes the mics, sells them, and there are a few resellers stocking the products making a typical dealer margin. So the end user saves maybe 40% compared to a product line that goes through a distributor...
Old 7th May 2012
  #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener View Post
When I compared them to DPA 4011A and 4006A, the DPA mics were not noticeably better, just slightly - a bit faster transients, a bit clearer picture, a bit more reach into the details - most noticeable on the depth of reverb those mics captured a bit better, etc. But actually - to be fair - with a bit of EQ they would be hard to guess in a blind test.

I too liked no.4 the most in those piano recordings, but it is astonishing enough that a mic that costs 250 EUR per pair doesn't sound out of place in the group of mics costing over 2000 EUR per pair.

I really wonder if DPA and Schoeps, Neumann, etc. COULD re-consider their pricing policy - at least dropping the price for 50% - they would still be much more expensive than CM3, but at least a bit more realistic pricing - around 700 - 800 EUR per mic... I guess until people are still buying such overpriced mics, they have no reason to lower the prices.
As a hobbyist/freelancer, the prices of DPA, Schoeps, Neumann, EW etc. are simply out of my reach. With the CM3, I now can make decent (possibly not great) recordings without breaking my bank. Even rentals of the good mics cost almost a quarter of the price I paid for the CM3.
Old 7th May 2012
  #266
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Sheikyearbouti's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
Sound surprisingly equal - I think I prefer 1 and 4 here on my hd580 Sennheiser headphones...
I actually find all those to sound surprisingly different. And I was also surprised that I again didn't like DPA (I have had amazing results with DPA, but sometimes they just don't work for me).

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener View Post
When I compared them to DPA 4011A and 4006A, the DPA mics were not noticeably better, just slightly - a bit faster transients, a bit clearer picture, a bit more reach into the details - most noticeable on the depth of reverb those mics captured a bit better, etc. But actually - to be fair - with a bit of EQ they would be hard to guess in a blind test.
When I did the blind test I played the first track and thought - "What a horrible mp3 encoding". Than I heard 2 and I realised that it wasn't the mp3 that was adding all the sonic mud I can hear on 1 (not all - would be great to listen to the WAV files! Any chance?). I surprisingly I like a lot the sound of the C42 and as I haven't used the DPA thought it was it. I would imagine the C42 being great for aggressive rock Drums OH. The Schoeps was an easy guess, as I have used it a lot and it always has this typical sonic signature and colour... More colour than the DPA and the C42 IMO, but much more natural and pleasant than 1. 1 was a bit plastic sounding to me. I know it will sound too much if I put it in this way, but when moved from 1 to 2 I felt as if I had switched from M-audio pres to Millennia, Grace or Forssell.

So in this test I would say, IMHO CM3 sounds cheaper than the rest, but certainly not as cheap as it actually costs. A great example is the other test above where the Naiant was clearly way worse. A good sound for a general purpose mic and a must buy with such dimensions and price. I am going to hear the CM3s myself for a first time today testing em on Drums OH. Will let you know...
Old 7th May 2012
  #267
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The Listener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheikyearbouti View Post
When I did the blind test I played the first track and thought - "What a horrible mp3 encoding". Than I heard 2 and I realised that it wasn't the mp3 that was adding all the sonic mud I can hear on 1 (not all - would be great to listen to the WAV files! Any chance?).
Are you talking about this blind test at the end of that post with the singer-songwriter singing and playing at the same time?

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/7675308-post175.html

I don't know what you heard exactly, but no.1 is DPA 4006A and no.2 is CM3 and those are wav files already, so you can't hear mp3 encoding artifacts.

Maybe you heard a not so good playing of my tired friend and the old strings on a guitar or the omnis revealing the flaws of my recording room more, but I don't hear such a dramatic difference honestly.

More comparisons here (but unfortunately no really good recordings of really good material on any of them, they are all wav files, though): https://www.gearslutz.com/board/7463941-post85.html

It would be very interesting to hear some comparisons made by you if you have CM3 now, since you record well and you work with nice artists in nice rooms/halls.

To test the mics yourself is always the only way to go, but many people posting different comparisons make for some good starting point and orientation when buying.
Old 7th May 2012
  #268
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Sheikyearbouti's Avatar
Sorry, my bad. I had to specify. I was first referring to the 4 mic test on piano done by diddier - mp3s (DPA, Schoeps, Josephson, Line Audio) and than the choir test of Naiant vs Line Audio.
Old 7th May 2012
  #269
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendriks View Post
Okay, thanks. I couldn't find a decisive answer with Google.

How come you guessed right, what did you hear?
Peter.
Peter -

To my ear there is a special warmth and smoothness to the CM3's. They are like a soft-focus lens. I am partial to them and liking them more and more. They can flatter the shrill, which is valuable.
Old 7th May 2012
  #270
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sheikyearbouti View Post
would be great to listen to the WAV files! Any chance?
The mp3s are at 320 kbit/s. I performed a null test with respect to the original 44 kHz x 24 bit: the residue RMS level is below - 88 dBFS, which is more than 15 dB lower than the initial silence. In general there is nothing significant left in 320 kbit/s mp3 from a piano recording.
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