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CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 17th March 2012
  #181
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener View Post
Singer songwriter playing and singing at the same time - blind test:

MIC 1 vs. MIC 2
I prefer Mic 2, because it has the most plasticity (more 3D) to the sound image and I hear fewer coloration when the singer moves. I have no experience with the CM3 and very little with the DPA, so I wouldn't be able to tell which is which.
Old 17th March 2012
  #182
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You can tell which is which instantly after listening to the other clips
Old 17th March 2012
  #183
Here's what I was trying to say unsuccessfully earlier:

This past weekend I recorded a jazz recital, no soundcheck, that had a changing ensemble on every tune, varying from 4-5 horns with 4 person rhythm section, to standard soloist quartet, to a trio of drums/guitar/saxophone. And the request of me as an engineer was to keep the setup out of the way.

So I used 8 channels total (1 drum/bass mic/bass di/guitar spot/stereo piano spot/horn section pair)

I used a cm3 pair to mic the entire horn section including soloists, to take advantage of several of its characteristics.

I had no room/applause mics, so it's rear pickup was helpful but controlled.

I had to pick up a horn section that varied from funk TOP style horn section, to large combo section, to little big band section, from tune to tune, AND capture solos, with an without horn section backgrounds happening simultaneously.

The cm3s with their great off-axis response meant that, even the alto and Bari players in their unfortunate positions on the far left and right sides of section could be picked up well. The alto player had several solos and was probably 55-65 degrees off-axis, but with a slight volume boost sounded clear and uncolored on his solos.

The tenor player, whom the recital featured, was in the center of the section and captured equally by both mics. He is a player who moves a lot while he blows, and the cm3s worked exceptionally well here to tame the swaying that would invariably occur with more directional mics.

And on top of all this, the cm3s soft touch and slower transient response gave me a more ldc- or ribbon-like attack on the horns which I LOVE. They also handled a screaming trumpet and trombone like champs, no overloading!

So when I say the cm3 has a slower response than a schoeps, it is an objective statement, but not a criticism. I enjoy that about it, and use it when that's what I want.

Plus this sucker is so tiny nobody will ever complain about having it in front of them unless they are really a PITA. I love em and continue to use them on every session.
Old 17th March 2012
  #184
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Quote:
Originally Posted by king2070lplaya View Post
By snappy I am referring to the transient response. Compare a schoeps mk2 to a cm3, you'll see what I mean.

Again, I love the cm3. No harm intended. No egos meant to be bruised.
Quote:
And on top of all this, the cm3s soft touch and slower transient response gave me a more ldc- or ribbon-like attack on the horns which I LOVE. They also handled a screaming trumpet and trombone like champs, no overloading!

So when I say the cm3 has a slower response than a schoeps, it is an objective statement, but not a criticism. I enjoy that about it, and use it when that's what I want.
Hi!

My ego can not possibly be bruised by someones opinions or preferences about sound. :-)

The MK2 has a 2-3dB top end lift while the CM3 is flat to 15-16k and then drops approx. 2 dB at 20k. That's a 5dB difference at 20k and ten times more than what is audible.

Such a difference gives the subjective impressions you report about hence why I wrote:
Quote:
If you look at the mic you feel is "snappier" and "faster" I bet they have a HF lift.
My suspicion was correct after I checked the spec of both mentioned mic's.


/Peter
Old 17th March 2012
  #185
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
The MK2 has a 2-3dB top end lift while the CM3 is flat to 15-16k and then drops approx. 2 dB at 20k.

The MK2 response is dead flat.
Old 17th March 2012
  #186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
My bad.. I was looking at the Schoeps website but on this graph:"frequency response MK 2 + CMC 6 xt".

That said the MK2 has a +/-2dB tolerance according to Schoeps. That can effectively mean a +4dB lift in the high range which is not anywhere near dead flat.

Also CM3 is speced +/-1dB 100Hz-16kHz so still, if we thrust manufacturer spec, the CM3 may very well be "more dead flat" than MK2.

And if the MK2 actually is dead flat, the CM is not as you can see on the Line Audio website. There's a slight top end roll off in the CM3 and again, this difference can give the impressions that Kingplaya reports about.. and that's my point... you can't talk about audible effects in the time domain without paying attention to frequency response.


/Peter
Old 17th March 2012
  #187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
that's my point... you can't talk about audible effects in the time domain without paying attention to frequency response.


/Peter
That's what I thought also, but just now found this article by Stephan Peus of Neumann which seems to challenge this somewhat:

Microphones and Transients

To be perfectly honest though, there's not enough explanation in the article for me ... but it is kind of interesting.
Old 20th March 2012
  #188
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The Listener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earcatcher View Post
I prefer Mic 2, because it has the most plasticity (more 3D) to the sound image and I hear fewer coloration when the singer moves. I have no experience with the CM3 and very little with the DPA, so I wouldn't be able to tell which is which.
You prefer Line Audio CM3 then. It works in that example, yes.

It is a very fine mic, but DPA 4006 is also very special to my ears and I prefer it even in close micing. Maybe I just like omnis, wide cardioids made me move from cardioids whenever possible, and omnis make me want to use only that kind of mics whenever possible. My M149 is mostly in one click before complete omni most of the time.
Old 27th March 2012
  #189
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judah's Avatar
 

We just bought a pair of CM3. If anyone has Oktava MC012 and are willing to try out something new, give the Lne Audio a try. They're so much balanced and even and the off axis sound is one of the nicest I ever heard.

My partner at the studio used'em recently in a Faulkner setup (CM3 spaced 40cm angled out, DPA 4060 spaced 60cm) along with an ORTF pair of Oktavas in the middle for comparison. Well, no comparison.

We sure like the Oktavas for studio drums and other sources but if you're looking for flat frequency response, eveness of pattern, grab a pair (or two) of CM3.

Yesterday we put one up on snare and was really happy with the result. Super off axis bleed.
Old 30th March 2012
  #190
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elswhrco's Avatar
 

More CM3 goodness:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-EC_nuHjFEc&hd=1

Last edited by Douglas Whates; 30th March 2012 at 02:42 PM.. Reason: trying to get the damn YouTube embed to work! But, I gave up.
Old 30th March 2012
  #191
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The Listener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Whates View Post
Cool, I really like how the bass came out in this live recording, I don't like piano that much ((in loud parts especially) - maybe the position was not ideal for the piano or maybe it's the instrument or just the room...
Old 30th March 2012
  #192
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elswhrco's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener View Post
Cool, I really like how the bass came out in this live recording, I don't like piano that much ((in loud parts especially) - maybe the position was not ideal for the piano or maybe it's the instrument or just the room...
I'm the first to admit this is not exactly a perfect recording. I didn't pay too much attention to the mic placement - sort of stuck it there, played, had a listen, moved it a touch then just went with it. The piano (an old Steinway C) wasn't really good enough (or in tune enough) to be so concerned with getting the perfect placement or anything like that.

Of course, the original audio sounds much nicer. What's on that video has been downsampled and rendered through Vegas Movie Studio, then uploaded and recompressed for YouTube. This video was more for promo use, to be honest.

However, in spite of all that, I thought I'd post it up here as it gives you an idea of the CM3 pickup as you can get a feel from the video for the size of the room and mic placement. There's no reverb added here and the only processing is PSP Mastercomp compressor/limiter to get the levels up there for laptop listeners.
Old 31st March 2012
  #193
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brle's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Douglas Whates View Post
I'm the first to admit this is not exactly a perfect recording. I didn't pay too much attention to the mic placement - sort of stuck it there, played, had a listen, moved it a touch then just went with it. The piano (an old Steinway C) wasn't really good enough (or in tune enough) to be so concerned with getting the perfect placement or anything like that.

Of course, the original audio sounds much nicer. What's on that video has been downsampled and rendered through Vegas Movie Studio, then uploaded and recompressed for YouTube. This video was more for promo use, to be honest.

However, in spite of all that, I thought I'd post it up here as it gives you an idea of the CM3 pickup as you can get a feel from the video for the size of the room and mic placement. There's no reverb added here and the only processing is PSP Mastercomp compressor/limiter to get the levels up there for laptop listeners.
Who cares for the recording - great playing from you both!
Old 1st April 2012
  #194
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elswhrco's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by brle View Post
Who cares for the recording - great playing from you both!
Aw, that's nice - thanks!
Old 2nd April 2012
  #195
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I just received a pair of these today in the mail, I purchased them from NoHype Audio and had them shipped to North America. It is pretty astonishing how good they sound given the modest price. I just close mic'd my living room Yamaha baby grand and banged out some Debussy (poorly). I don't consider myself to be a recording savvy individual, but since I know everyone here loves audio samples... This is the 2x CM3s running through my Saffire Pro 40. No EQ or anything obviously:

CM3PnoTest.wav download - 2shared
Old 3rd April 2012
  #196
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jpgerard's Avatar
Glad they arrived quickly! A quick note to everyone interested in buying CM3's from us: we'll have them again in stock by April 20th or so. We're stocking a lot more CM3's on a monthly basis now so after this month we should never be out of stock again. Thanks!
Old 4th April 2012
  #197
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judah's Avatar
 

A firm thumb up for JP. Super helpful and kind. Our CM3 took a while to ship btu he was very supportive and professional.
Old 4th April 2012
  #198
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jpgerard's Avatar
Thanks - solving my CM3 supply issues is my main task these days!
Old 19th April 2012
  #199
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cm3 - nt5 - m1245 comparison part 1

Many examples and comparisons of the Line Audio CM3 on Gearslutz and elsewhere were of great help and made me decide to buy a pair. Thanks for the help! Recently I did put up a setting for comparison at a chamber music concert by students of the university of Delft (Netherlands). A variety of instruments and voices, I thought the results could be interesting for others too.
Live concert-recording, distant tripod placement out of the way, no massive microphone-setting in sight of the public.
3 sets in ORTF close above each other for comparison (+ 'mobile' sets of pzm-mics and mics in xy not in the comparison but used for final mixing). The mics about 3m up, at a 5m distance from the piano and 4m from the musicians in front of the piano. ORTF: mics about 20cm apart, angled about 90°.
Microphone sets: Line Audio CM3, Rode NT5 (not engraved), Audix M1245. Mic-pres Tascam MX4, recorder Joeco BBR1-B. Only edited to make sound level about equal for the 3 mic-sets per ensemble for easy comparison. Levels of different ensembles are not all in proportion to each other.
Ensembles: Saxophone + piano, violin + piano, soprano + (male-)alto + piano, viola solo, traverso duo.
Examples of the mics in arbitrary order to make recognition maybe a bit more difficult.
Enjoy!
Peter.
Attached Files
File Type: fla 03-1-Pi.fla (7.17 MB, 352 views) File Type: fla 03-2-Pi.fla (6.17 MB, 260 views) File Type: fla 03-3-Pi.fla (6.31 MB, 258 views) File Type: fla 05-1-Vla.fla (4.64 MB, 232 views) File Type: fla 05-2-Vla.fla (4.72 MB, 247 views) File Type: fla 05-3-Vla.fla (5.06 MB, 239 views) File Type: fla 01-1-SaxPiano.fla (5.94 MB, 244 views) File Type: fla 01-2-SaxPiano.fla (6.55 MB, 232 views) File Type: fla 01-3-SaxPiano.fla (5.71 MB, 234 views)

Last edited by hendriks; 24th April 2012 at 09:59 PM.. Reason: Replacement of faulty audio files
Old 19th April 2012
  #200
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cm3 - nt5 - m1245 comparison part 2

Some more files.
Enjoy more!
Peter.

PS If you cannot play .fla files, get the free VLC media player.
Attached Files
File Type: fla 04-1-SoprAltoPi.fla (7.64 MB, 230 views) File Type: fla 04-2-SoprAltoPi.fla (6.87 MB, 235 views) File Type: fla 04-3-SoprAltoPi.fla (7.00 MB, 215 views) File Type: fla 06-1-Traversi.fla (2.36 MB, 207 views) File Type: fla 06-2-Traversi.fla (2.59 MB, 215 views) File Type: fla 06-3-Traversi.fla (2.32 MB, 214 views) File Type: fla 02-1-VlnPi.fla (8.72 MB, 272 views) File Type: fla 02-2-VlnPi.fla (8.73 MB, 255 views) File Type: fla 02-3-VlnPi.fla (9.51 MB, 236 views)

Last edited by hendriks; 24th April 2012 at 10:14 PM.. Reason: Replacement of faulty audio files
Old 19th April 2012
  #201
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hendriks View Post
Some more files.
Enjoy more!
Peter.

PS If you cannot play .fla files, get the free VLC media player.

Or, get foobar, the Swiss Army knife of players: foobar2000
Old 19th April 2012
  #202
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For the piano set, I prefer 3. My guess is
1 Audix (peaky, thin),
2 Rode (not as fast and detailed like 3)
3 Line Audio (catches more the piano action noise)

The stereo in 3 is flipped with respect to 1 and 2.
Old 20th April 2012
  #203
Gear Nut
 

I listened to the piano, violin/piano, and sax/piano clips. My guesses are:

1. Rode
2. Line Audio
3. Audix

The 3's were noisy, thin, and lacking low end in a major way. The 2's sounded the smoothest, clearest, fullest, richest, and most natural to me. I heard this most in the piano clips, particularly between :38-:56, but also in the vln/piano samples. The 1's were Ok but a little harsh in the high end, which is why I think there're the Rodes (I own these mics).
I'll actually be quite surprised if I'm not correct.

Brian
Old 20th April 2012
  #204
Jeez I own these mics and, based purely on the speculation thus far (on iphone and cant listen myself) am looking forward to the outcome of this test. Good descriptors, all!
Old 21st April 2012
  #205
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Haigbabe's Avatar
 

Hi Hendriks.

Thanks for posting the files.

There seems to be a problem with VlnPiano file #3, VocalPiano #1 and Traversi#2 in terms of high noise.

Or is that how the mics are performing? Or a conversion problem? Or does Foobar mess with your files maybe?

Cheers,

HB
Old 21st April 2012
  #206
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CGBrian.M View Post
I listened to the piano, violin/piano, and sax/piano clips. My guesses are:

1. Rode
2. Line Audio
3. Audix

The 3's were noisy, thin, and lacking low end in a major way. The 2's sounded the smoothest, clearest, fullest, richest, and most natural to me. I heard this most in the piano clips, particularly between :38-:56, but also in the vln/piano samples. The 1's were Ok but a little harsh in the high end, which is why I think there're the Rodes (I own these mics).
I'll actually be quite surprised if I'm not correct.

Brian
I only listened to the violin tracks. 2 is smoother than the other two. 3 is very tinny: it hurts my ears. 1 sounds like what I recorded with the Rode rentals on string sources: a bit bright at the top. So my guesses are the same as above.

I hope 2 is indeed the Line Audio CM3 because I'm planning to get these.
Old 21st April 2012
  #207
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benoïde's Avatar
 

These microphones seem very small. Would they fit the Rycote Softie 033012 as pictured below? I intend to order a pair and use them for location and sound FX recording...

Old 21st April 2012
  #208
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jpgerard's Avatar
CM3 Size: 77mm x 20mm
Old 24th April 2012
  #209
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Sheikyearbouti's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by benoïde View Post
These microphones seem very small. Would they fit the Rycote Softie 033012 as pictured below? I intend to order a pair and use them for location and sound FX recording...

Did someone try these?
Old 24th April 2012
  #210
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cm3 - nt5 - m1245 comparison part 3

Thanks for the replies. Here are the correct answers:

-saxophone + piano
1-1-cm3 / 1-2-M1245 / 1-3-NT5
-violin + piano
2-1-NT5 / 2-2-CM3 / 2-3-M1245
-piano solo
3-1-M1245 / 3-2-NT5 / 3-3-CM3
-soprano + (male-)alto + piano
4-1-M1245 / 4-2-NT5 / 4-3-CM3
-viola solo
5-1-NT5 / 5-2-CM3 /5-3-M1245
-traversi
6-1-CM3 / 6-2-M1245 / 6-3-NT5

Didier
Thanks for pointing out my 'little' mistake. I will try to replace the flipped-stereo audio files.

CGBrian.M
I'll actually be quite surprised if I'm not correct

I am afraid you fooled yourself by assuming that the order was the same in all clips :-)

Haigbabe
Noise VlnPiano file #3, VocalPiano #1 and Traversi#2

It's how these mics are performing

polytope
I hope 2 is indeed the Line Audio CM3 because I'm planning to get these

In the violin/piano clip no 2 is the cm3 :-)

(Not only) Based on this comparison I am really happy with my cm3 pair.
Peter.
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