The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 All  This Thread  Reviews  Gear Database  Gear for sale     Latest  Trending
Tags: , , ,

CM3 - really THAT good?
Old 7th March 2019
  #1921
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumfool View Post
Here's a shootout I did including the CM3 recording a vibraphone at my home studio. Enjoy!

YouTube
I thought the A-T had a noticeable lack of HF shine compared with the Rode/Joly and CM3....or perhaps the Rode is artificially bright...but then this is quite a close miking experiment. There was a brief segment where the upper bass of the CM3 bloomed more fully than the other mics.

An interesting experiment. While the Rode/Joly initially caught my attention for its detail, I wonder if this wouldn't become fatiguing in the longer term ?
Old 7th March 2019
  #1922
Lives for gear
 
rojaros's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumfool View Post
Here's a shootout I did including the CM3 recording a vibraphone at my home studio. Enjoy!

YouTube
Very enjoyable shooutout.
Without knowing exactly why I liked the AT4050 best on this. It sounded more 'mysterious', less flat to me. Liked the NT5 least. Can't give a rational reason for it.
Old 7th March 2019
  #1923
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rojaros View Post
Very enjoyable shooutout.
Without knowing exactly why I liked the AT4050 best on this. It sounded more 'mysterious', less flat to me. Liked the NT5 least. Can't give a rational reason for it.
My feeling also. The CM-3's did sound nice, with noticeably more room due to their slightly wider pickup pattern.
Old 7th March 2019
  #1924
Lives for gear
 
jimjazzdad's Avatar
I'm in the AT4050 camp as well. I could live with the CM3 very easily and the small size could be a game changer in some situations.Thank you for the great shoot out
Old 7th March 2019
  #1925
Lives for gear
 
mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumfool View Post
I tried to get everything as close together as possible:

https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...0c&oe=5CDC1DE3
Interesting I usually find coincident X-Y to be flat and boring. Same here, but I'm still surprised that the different microphones rendered spaciousness so differently. I'm aware of the slight differences in polar patterns, but even so.

A subjective PS: It may not be important, but the technique using 'almost coincident' X-Y where the left-side mic points to the right and vice-versa (and at the same time block some of the microphones 'recording view') has always seemed somewhat wrong to me, they should ideally be on top of each-other.

::
Mads
Old 7th March 2019
  #1926
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
Interesting I usually find coincident X-Y to be flat and boring. Same here, but I'm still surprised that the different microphones rendered spaciousness so differently. I'm aware of the slight differences in polar patterns, but even so.

A subjective PS: It may not be important, but the technique using 'almost coincident' X-Y where the left-side mic points to the right and vice-versa (and at the same time block some of the microphones 'recording view') has always seemed somewhat wrong to me, they should ideally be on top of each-other.
Thanks for the note on the XY setup. I agree that XY is usually less interesting than a spaced pair. This seemed like the easiest way to set up the shootout for some reason.
Old 8th March 2019
  #1927
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by drumfool View Post
I tried to get everything as close together as possible:

https://scontent-sjc3-1.xx.fbcdn.net...0c&oe=5CDC1DE3
Thanks for the photo, it explains a lot! Should you do it again, if so many mics are bundled together, you might want to position them much further from the source, doing this will reduce the effect of proximity placement. Obviously, looking at your photo, the CM3's and Rodes cannot reproduce the same source as they're capturing totally different parts of the instrument as such a short distance. Interesting experiment of course but I'll bet that if you put one Rode where the Rode pairs is and one Rode where the CM3's are, you'll get radically tones too. Another way to do this would be to swap the mics so that we get two files where the pairs are reversed so that we can judge how much impact placement had. Those shootouts are always a headache aren't they
Old 9th March 2019
  #1928
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Thanks for the photo, it explains a lot! Should you do it again, if so many mics are bundled together, you might want to position them much further from the source, doing this will reduce the effect of proximity placement. Obviously, looking at your photo, the CM3's and Rodes cannot reproduce the same source as they're capturing totally different parts of the instrument as such a short distance. Interesting experiment of course but I'll bet that if you put one Rode where the Rode pairs is and one Rode where the CM3's are, you'll get radically tones too. Another way to do this would be to swap the mics so that we get two files where the pairs are reversed so that we can judge how much impact placement had. Those shootouts are always a headache aren't they
FWIW, I think the forced perspective of the photo makes it seem like the mics are pointed at completely different parts of the instrument. At the middle where the mics are, the instrument is a little over 22” wide (front to back) and the mic array is about 6” deep altogether. The 4050’s are straddling the mid line separating the white keys from the black keys with the NT5’s and CM3’s just over either the white or black keys. I think if the placement in this case was cause for the difference in sound, what you really would notice is either the accidentals popping out of the sound for the CM3’s or the white keys for the NT5’s.

Next time I’ll switch some things around like you suggested to make sure that placement isn’t affecting the results.

Again, thanks for listening and I hope this was somewhat useful in comparing the CM3’s with two different mics.
Old 17th March 2019
  #1929
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
I'm in the AT4050 camp as well. I could live with the CM3 very easily and the small size could be a game changer in some situations.Thank you for the great shoot out

Just have to be careful not to mistake them on cables in the dark for cables that already had their mics removed. Though it only happens once.

Don't ask how I know.
Old 14th May 2019
  #1930
Lives for gear
 
The Listener's Avatar
I started this thread years ago and I still use CM3 regularly, had to sell my favorite mic Gefell UM70 to get a Sony photo camera at one point, but plan to buy it back sometime... Best "reasonable cost" LDC in my opinion...

CM3 are now my only stereo pair and I can live with it... I can also borrow Sennheiser MKH40 and Shure KSM141 if I need more or different...

I also use more dynamic mics for percussion and ethnic flutes - notably Sennheiser MD441... my favourite mic overall...

I used MKH40 to record a minimalist record with minimal post production, only added reverb and CM3 were not so balanced and smooth as MKH40 for the Native American flutes - I wanted to forget about the mics and only record and be confident that what I play the mics will capture with all the nuance and subtlety and smoothness - if budget wouldn't be an issue I would get a pair of MKH40s and MKH50 for video dialogue...
This is my album "Abri" recorded with MKH40s (no EQ on dry signal - only added reverbs and delays - those are EQd): https://nimetu.bandcamp.com/album/abri

Now I consider a bit quieter stereo pair for a bit more distant stereo recordings of acoustic music - CM3 can work - but I plan to record some classical videos of piano and violin and accordeon and violin with one stereo pair outside the frame - I don't want mics to be visible and I think CM3 will be too noisy and not so smooth for this application... I will maybe borrow MKH40 pair again, but I recently saw that people were raving about Miktek C5 - I couldn't find any threads about them in this forum - I don't see a search function for this forum only - only for the whole Gearslutz - but I am interested in the opinion of this community, not the pop guys... Is there any thread about Mikteks here? Anyone used them? Both capsules - cardioid and omni?


Two violin videos with a pair of CM3s only:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hrw8uBnuexk

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4_OiTjE8IQ

And this is one video with a (for my taste too distant in that overly reverberant hall) MKH40 pair (but the only way to keep it out of the picture was to have it so far back) and CM3s as spots on violin and cello: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0rGlXAlKDnM

So, Mikteks? Any opinions?

CM3s are good - but sometimes I need something else...
Old 14th May 2019
  #1931
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
Hey!

Good question. I'd say go with Schoeps if you can afford it. The difference in noise floor is worth the price tag.

Miktek C5:
Equivalent Noise Level . 17dB

I'll assume dBA. That's one dB over the CM3. However you could shelve the HF as it slopes up, so if you're after a linear response, you could use a very smooth shelving EQ to drop the HF tilt, and you'd drop the hiss level but the same amount, say one or two dB. So you'd basically get back to CM3 performance...

You'd need a mic with a real life (not marketing dept. made spec sheet) noise floor of 14dBA to get a noticeable improvement over the CM3's S/N ratio. KM184 if you can live with its sound, Schoeps remains a great candidate, maybe you can squeeze a pair in your budget as your main pair, keeping the CM3's for spot work.
Old 14th May 2019
  #1932
Lives for gear
 
The Listener's Avatar
Thanks,

seems I'll be borrowing MKH40 some more...

Btw - CM3 are not especially noisy if anyone would read that like that... Just when you put them a bit more distant they are not as silent and smooth (less full, less reach maybe?) as something like MKH40... and Schoeps and the like...


Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Hey!

Good question. I'd say go with Schoeps if you can afford it. The difference in noise floor is worth the price tag.

Miktek C5:
Equivalent Noise Level . 17dB

I'll assume dBA. That's one dB over the CM3. However you could shelve the HF as it slopes up, so if you're after a linear response, you could use a very smooth shelving EQ to drop the HF tilt, and you'd drop the hiss level but the same amount, say one or two dB. So you'd basically get back to CM3 performance...

You'd need a mic with a real life (not marketing dept. made spec sheet) noise floor of 14dBA to get a noticeable improvement over the CM3's S/N ratio. KM184 if you can live with its sound, Schoeps remains a great candidate, maybe you can squeeze a pair in your budget as your main pair, keeping the CM3's for spot work.
Old 14th May 2019
  #1933
Lives for gear
 

I've gone back and forth between CM-3's and KM140's as my main pair the past couple of years, and have never found the self-noise difference between the mics to be an issue because the ambient noise is always far more noticeable than the mic noise. I suppose I might notice the difference recording soft sources in a silent studio situation , but that's not the purpose my Line Audio mics serve.
Old 15th May 2019
  #1934
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
Right, but I assume that our friend The Listener noticed a bit of hiss during pauses etc. That's when you might get a bit of hiss creeping in if the mic are far away from the source. Yes, a bit of processing in Post is the usual trick as it only affects pauses but even then, to date this has been a rare occurrence. I mention the KM's because a direct comparison in hiss will give a slight advantage to the KM's and we're at the limit of what SDC's can do in terms of S/N ratio. Moving to LDC can be considered if you need a lower noise floor than 14dBA (per mic). 16 is a pretty good noise level for sure. As far as reach and fullness, keep in mind they're Sub Cardioids. Again, the KM140/184 might be an acceptable solution. Borrowed MKH are certainly nice too
Old 15th May 2019
  #1935
Old 3rd June 2019
  #1936
Lives for gear
The little CM3 continues to score goals....this time as an XY spot pair on baroque voices at a local concert last week...links below. Did I hear a rumour of new Line Audio product not too far off over the horizon ?

https://vimeo.com/339928838 (...from 3:08 onwards)
https://vimeo.com/339689256

Last edited by studer58; 3rd June 2019 at 04:29 PM..
Old 3rd June 2019
  #1937
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
Hush.
Old 3rd June 2019
  #1938
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The little CM3 continues to score goals....this time as an XY spot pair on baroque voices at a local concert last week...links below. Did I hear a rumour of new Line Audio product not too far off over the horizon ?

https://vimeo.com/339928838 (...from 3:08 onwards)
https://vimeo.com/339689256
Nice. If only we could train singers to stop putting up gobos when they perform.

What's the suspended main pair?
Old 3rd June 2019
  #1939
Lives for gear
 
hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmccoy View Post
Nice. If only we could train singers to stop putting up gobos when they perform.

What's the suspended main pair?
Gobos are one thing, and are, at best, benign... Reflectors, on the other hand, are usually the enemy...

HB
Old 3rd June 2019
  #1940
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
Gobos are one thing, and are, at best, benign... Reflectors, on the other hand, are usually the enemy...

HB
Yep, my bad—I was giving them the benefit of the doubt. Those choir folders are nasty. Not only do they reflect, but they form a little resonant chamber in front of the singer. In addition to having to deal with that a number of times myself, I've also seen some videos of incredibly high-end performances that still have that awful phasing sound on the soloists.
Old 4th June 2019
  #1941
Lives for gear
 
boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The little CM3 continues to score goals....this time as an XY spot pair on baroque voices at a local concert last week...links below.

https://vimeo.com/339928838 (...from 3:08 onwards)
https://vimeo.com/339689256
This is a lovely recording of a lovely performance. Hat's off to you. I do not see any other mics. Are the CM3's carrying the whole load? They are incredibly good mics and when the cost is factored in it is easy to understand why they are so popular, along with the OM1's. Thanks for the post.
Old 4th June 2019
  #1942
Lives for gear
 

If you look at 8:30 in the first video you can see a pair of mics suspended over the orchestra. I can't identify them, but I'm guessing Neumann or Schoeps.
Old 4th June 2019
  #1943
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmccoy View Post
If you look at 8:30 in the first video you can see a pair of mics suspended over the orchestra. I can't identify them, but I'm guessing Neumann or Schoeps.
Yes, at around 12 secs into one of the videos, you can see a pair of Neumann KM183's suspended over the typical conductor's position. They are carrying the weight of instrumental and vocal capture, and their high end bump probably helps (?).... U89 spot on the cello also

I haven't really thought about the role of the folded reflector panels behind....I've just assumed they did benign "forward-throwing" duty, as there's a bit of a black-hole of beneath organ/storage-area low end trapping going on without them, when it's just solo piano, for example.

I figure they're (singers) far enough forward from it not to matter...and that it probably helps the other instruments to project forward...but maybe there's some combing going on, I'm not sure ?

If you hear 'that awful phasing sound' look/listen carefully to when it occurs...it's just as likely to be reflections, or partial blocking, of direct voice sound off the held score books ! As is usual in concert recording, there are some aspects which are simply beyond our control ....

Last edited by studer58; 4th June 2019 at 02:07 AM..
Old 4th June 2019
  #1944
Lives for gear
 

Ah, sorry, I didn't mean to imply anything in this recording sounded horrible. Quite the contrary. But I was referring to the music folder, not anything on the stage. I do hear just a hint of the resonant sound I'm talking about on the female solo. It's always a battle because it's hard to place the spot mics high enough to get over the folders or they'll be visually intrusive. All vocal soloists should be required to work from memory.

The orchestra sounds excellent. I've only recorded a baroque group once, and because they wanted the front of the stage kept clear, I thought I could get away with placing the mics over the harpsichord from the rear. Bad idea. Probably the first time a harpsichord has overwhelmed an orchestra.
Old 4th June 2019
  #1945
Lives for gear
Ah ok, I got the folders (book) with the folding wooden panels !

Harpsichord can be tricky, you have to take each situation on its merits. You'll notice this one has its lid off, thus projecting vertically up to the main pair quite well.

With the lid on and up during rehearsal, it was a different story. The lid acted as a wing/shield, effectively stopping projection to the right side of the stage, as you can imagine...and the upward projection was similarly compromised.

I was surprised at how much more present it appeared sonically, once the lid was removed. Decca wisdom has it that placing a spot underneath the instrument, pointing up at the soundboard, gives you enough body and roundness, without the 'ping' (which is usually always present and correct regardless....
Old 4th June 2019
  #1946
Gear Maniac
I have decided to get either cm3 or om1 pair.

Which pair would suit better to record live jazz trio in a small room? (I will use those as drum over heads I think, which leads me to get cm3 instead of om1 since om1 might record whole room sound)
Old 4th June 2019
  #1947
Lives for gear
 

I didn't get any rehearsal or sound check, and didn't know until I got to the hall that they didn't want anything in front of the musicians. (It was a holiday thing with lots of pretty decorations). The conductor was playing the harpsichord so it was facing upstage, allowing the mics to be positioned from the rear and camouflaged pretty well. Having only ever heard how wimpy the harpsichord was, I figured with NOS spacing the orchestra would be strong enough, but the open instrument really does project upward like a searchlight. Let that be a lesson to everyone: beware the killer harpsichord!
Old 4th June 2019
  #1948
Lives for gear
 
The Listener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by shimoyjk View Post
I have decided to get either cm3 or om1 pair.

Which pair would suit better to record live jazz trio in a small room? (I will use those as drum over heads I think, which leads me to get cm3 instead of om1 since om1 might record whole room sound)
Definitely CM3 - they work in small rooms well enough...
Old 4th June 2019
  #1949
Lives for gear
 
The Listener's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The little CM3 continues to score goals....this time as an XY spot pair on baroque voices at a local concert last week...links below. Did I hear a rumour of new Line Audio product not too far off over the horizon ?

https://vimeo.com/339928838 (...from 3:08 onwards)
https://vimeo.com/339689256
For some reason the links won't work here?

Are the videos still up?

And yes, I heard that "secret", too... I am sure it is not so sensitive to not hint at it here...

We will have a whole new set of shoot-outs now - and threads like "which is better CM3 or CM X"? Might cause the CM3s to become "vintage" and highly priced on ebay... )))))
Old 4th June 2019
  #1950
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener View Post
For some reason the links won't work here?

Are the videos still up?
Sorry, they had to come down, artist dispute....but the point was made, the CM3 is a worthy little performer !
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Forum Jump
Forum Jump