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CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1861
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rojaros's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The main thing that would steer me past the 2MP or 8MP would be the gain pots not having calibrated click stops like the DAV BG2 or BG8 does. Getting repeatable matching of at least the main mic pair without such calibration would have to be done by ear. Apart from that I'd have no other reservations on a technical level.
The interesting point is how 2mP and BG2 would compare sonically?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1862
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojaros View Post
The interesting point is how 2mP and BG2 would compare sonically?
There have been some reviews of the Line Audio mic preamps in this and other GS forums. My recollection is that the 2MP and 8MP are very 'transparent' and don't impose their own character at all....I feel the same about the DAV, but others may differ ?

The class of 'transparent' mic pres has many students enrolled, and it is a sought after quality, but the DAV and Line Audio mic amps are certainly at the more moderate cost end of the offerings there.

Linked below is a cross-section of the comparative chat about both here on GS

Line Audio 8MP site:www.gearslutz.com - Google Search
Old 1 week ago
  #1863
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Just got two CM3 mics in the mail. What cute little mics they are. I wasn't aware they are that tiny. Just a little longer than an XLR connector. Even smaller than the Oktava MK 012. I will thest them out in the weekend.
Old 1 week ago
  #1864
Hi All,

As an owner of 4 x cm3 and 4 x OM1, I recently decided to move on from my RME and Focusrite Interface Pre's and I got the MP8.
From my subjective point of view, I can say that it has taken my sound up a big notch. Detail is greater, smoother, more elastic. Generally my sound is more '3D silky' compared to what I was getting before. It is a quality piece of gear giving you 8 channels at very good value. For years I was hoping to save cash for a 4 channel DAV, but in the end this was a very practical choice for me at the price and my clients are even happier now.

Here is a little sample: Verdi Requiem with Cape Philharmonic Orchestra. I used a quad array main with Schoeps MK21 in NOS (loaned to me, usually I use CM3) and OM1 in wider AB. All going through MP8. The choir spots are MK21 through RME pres...just because I never had enough XLR to Jacks to use 2 more channels of the MP8, otherwise I would have:

YouTube
Old 1 week ago
  #1865
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So after the MP8, the individual mics went into what device for the eventual A-D...RME again ? It's a fine recording, but to tease apart the contribution of RME vs MP8 mic pre's, if the whole collection is going through the RME anyway = hard to determine their relative contributions ?

it would be great if Line Audio made a complete interface, instead of an 8x mic pre only....?
Old 1 week ago
  #1866
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jpgerard's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
it would be great if Line Audio made a complete interface, instead of an 8x mic pre only....?
I asked Roger some time ago but he's not into ADC's and I doubt that he'd just stick a third party converter in one of his designs... then you have to deal with updates, compatibility issues, complaints about why it's not this or that... I think he's doing the right thing focusing on what he does best. Doesn't mean an 8MP with build it ADC won't come out but I wouldn't hold my breath. Roger's mostly into mics, as you guys know!
Old 1 week ago
  #1867
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
I asked Roger some time ago but he's not into ADC's and I doubt that he'd just stick a third party converter in one of his designs... then you have to deal with updates, compatibility issues, complaints about why it's not this or that... I think he's doing the right thing focusing on what he does best. Doesn't mean an 8MP with build it ADC won't come out but I wouldn't hold my breath. Roger's mostly into mics, as you guys know!
I'm sure he's 'diversified' enough already...for a 1 man show ! Wasn't there a rumour he is going to be winding down or ceasing production of the 8MP anyway ? Or perhaps just making them to special order only ? I'd like to know what commonly available A-D multi-converters Roger would recommend, to go on the back end of his 8MP's at the present time ?
Old 1 week ago
  #1868
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jpgerard's Avatar
It kinda varies with demand for the CM3's. As you point out - he only has so much time on his hands. As of today the 2MP and 8MP are regular production items and will remain so until further notice. I'll ask if he has any recommendations and post back here if so.
Old 1 week ago
  #1869
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Good point - Roger doesn't want to change the design to allow for expensive rotary switches, as he doesn't like the lack of precision of detented pots... I know it would be a great option, I for one would love it for bench work, but alas it won't happen.
The DAV pots are stepped, not detented...and have precise 3dB steps. D.A.V. electronics - The Broadhurst Gardens No. 8 Mic Amp

If it were possible for users to buy these pots and retro-fit them to the 8MP, I'd do so in a heartbeat. I can see that for Roger to commit to making them this way, as an across the board standard, would necessarily bump up the price...but for individual users keen on doing so, it would be great to undertake this as a minor*, aftermarket, DIY project ? It might even be done on only 2 of the 8 preamps (main pair)...just to ensure accurate gain matching ?

minor*...?
Old 1 week ago
  #1870
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jpgerard's Avatar
Exactly, rotary switches are different from detented pots, and are a lot more expensive. If you look into an 8MP you'll see the gain pot. If you're handy you could try retrofitting a rotary switch but I doubt that there's enough room. If there's not enough room you'd need a larger enclosure. So all of a sudden, the 8MP becomes a much more expensive unit which would put off many potential customers who see it as a great bang for the buck. But again, yes, as a DIY project, it might be possible.
Old 1 week ago
  #1871
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Exactly, rotary switches are different from detented pots, and are a lot more expensive. If you look into an 8MP you'll see the gain pot. If you're handy you could try retrofitting a rotary switch but I doubt that there's enough room. If there's not enough room you'd need a larger enclosure. So all of a sudden, the 8MP becomes a much more expensive unit which would put off many potential customers who see it as a great bang for the buck. But again, yes, as a DIY project, it might be possible.
Somehow I can't see Roger encouraging DIY tweakery of his products by buyers....?

If, like the DAV, Roger had put a DB25 connector instead of the 8 x XLR sockets on the rear, he might have been able to justify the additional cost of the rotary switches...too late now though, it is what it is.
Old 1 week ago
  #1872
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jpgerard's Avatar
I don't know many serious manufacturers who would... from memory, there's very little mod that can be done to an 8MP, at least without risking messing things up to some extent... back to your earlier post, Roger basically has no direct recommendation as he hasn't compared extensively all the current available ADC's but as he points out:

"I guess that today most non-crap A/D converters would pass _level_matched_ double blinded tests with nearly all listeners/buyers on the type of sounds they record most often even with more difficult non music stimuli (test signals). There is still much too much weight on the importance on the pre-amps (not including the ones designed to distort) and converters and too much nonsense conclusions drawn by testing in ways that reveal differences that has nothing to do with the performance of the equipment. This is my "humble" opinion. Back in the 90's the differences were great, even pro-tools and such made some hardware that were pretty bad compared to today's standard and is today beaten by simple, silly looking consumer sound cards. Things has changed. -To the better!
I am not saying that all consumer soundcards (or all professional ones) have great or the best A/D converters, because they don't (conclusion made from test reports). But I guess it will be hard to find anything targeted at the professional market that is not very good in a historical sens, if one avoids the ones marketed to have a special sound."

So as stated - a Line Audio mic pre with integrated ADC is probably not coming out any time soon
Old 1 week ago
  #1873
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post

"I guess that today most non-crap A/D converters would pass _level_matched_ double blinded tests with nearly all listeners/buyers on the type of sounds they record most often even with more difficult non music stimuli (test signals). There is still much too much weight on the importance on the pre-amps (not including the ones designed to distort) and converters and too much nonsense conclusions drawn by testing in ways that reveal differences that has nothing to do with the performance of the equipment. This is my "humble" opinion. Back in the 90's the differences were great, even pro-tools and such made some hardware that were pretty bad compared to today's standard and is today beaten by simple, silly looking consumer sound cards. Things has changed. -To the better!
Hear, Hear! the actual ADC and DACs for most professional audio gear are either exactly the same or in the same "class", regardless of price. Where there are differences it's usually in the analog circuits, or the quality/cleverness of the physical design for reliablity/EMI shielding/ergonomics/etc.
Old 1 week ago
  #1874
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jpgerard's Avatar
It's true that there aren't many different ADC chips around... so what counts is mostly what's ahead in terms of input conditioning, PSU and enclosure.
Old 1 week ago
  #1875
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rojaros's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by unqlenol View Post
Hi All,

As an owner of 4 x cm3 and 4 x OM1, I recently decided to move on from my RME and Focusrite Interface Pre's and I got the MP8.
From my subjective point of view, I can say that it has taken my sound up a big notch. Detail is greater, smoother, more elastic. Generally my sound is more '3D silky' compared to what I was getting before. It is a quality piece of gear giving you 8 channels at very good value. For years I was hoping to save cash for a 4 channel DAV, but in the end this was a very practical choice for me at the price and my clients are even happier now.

Here is a little sample: Verdi Requiem with Cape Philharmonic Orchestra. I used a quad array main with Schoeps MK21 in NOS (loaned to me, usually I use CM3) and OM1 in wider AB. All going through MP8. The choir spots are MK21 through RME pres...just because I never had enough XLR to Jacks to use 2 more channels of the MP8, otherwise I would have:

YouTube
Thanks for sharing the recording. Very convincing. Sounds great in my ears. Also I liked the performance very much...
Old 1 week ago
  #1876
Lives for gear
Here's a short baroque rehearsal recorded today, with a 4 mic Faulkner array....CM3 pair in the centre 47cm and Rode NT5-omnis outside at 67cm (at around 9dB down )

A bit of cooling fan and traffic noise, but for a rehearsal not significant. Sorry I can't recall the compositions, baroque fiends here will know ? About 17 players, nice shoebox hall, no effects or dynamics treatment.
Attached Files

rehearsal baroque orchestra .mp3 (4.84 MB, 706 views)


Last edited by studer58; 1 week ago at 03:07 PM..
Old 1 week ago
  #1877
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Here's a short baroque rehearsal recorded today, with a 4 mic Faulkner array....CM3 pair in the centre 47cm and Rode NT5-omnis outside at 67cm (at around 9dB down )

A bit of cooling fan and traffic noise, but for a rehearsal not significant. Sorry I can't recall the compositions, baroque fiends here will know ? About 17 players, nice shoebox hall, no effects or dynamics treatment.
a second rehearsal segment from the same session
Attached Files
Old 1 week ago
  #1878
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Marche turque du Bourgeois Gentilhomme de Lully. Great music and playing !
Old 1 week ago
  #1879
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rojaros's Avatar
Studer58, what is a 4 mic Faulkner array? Just happen to know a Faulkner array with two figure eight mics..
The room seems to be a bit boomy in some frequencies, or is it just me?

Very nice capture though, apart from the impression of some boominess... sounds alive!
Old 1 week ago
  #1880
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojaros View Post
Studer58, what is a 4 mic Faulkner array? Just happen to know a Faulkner array with two figure eight mics..
The room seems to be a bit boomy in some frequencies, or is it just me?

Very nice capture though, apart from the impression of some boominess... sounds alive!
The Faulkner array is introduced by its inventor, with full historical background, within this interview. >>>: YouTube
I won't give a minutes/secs reference as to where it's located.....because you need to see the entire video at least 3 times anyway

Also, do a search within this forum for the array....it's been extremely frequently cited....the search will flood you with info, be very afraid.....it's hard to believe you haven't crossed paths already. Yes it's a little boomy that hall....I probably should have used less of the 67 cms omnis ?
Old 1 week ago
  #1881
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
Marche turque du Bourgeois Gentilhomme de Lully. Great music and playing !
Merci Monsieur
Old 1 week ago
  #1882
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The Faulkner array is introduced by its inventor, with full historical background, within this interview. >>>: YouTube
I won't give a minutes/secs reference as to where it's located.....because you need to see the entire video at least 3 times anyway

Also, do a search within this forum for the array....it's been extremely frequently cited....the search will flood you with info, be very afraid.....it's hard to believe you haven't crossed paths already. Yes it's a little boomy that hall....I probably should have used less of the 67 cms omnis ?
Once you have seen the above video, here is another with Tony Faulkner, also showing his 4 mic array, interviewed by Simmosonic from this very forum >>> Anima Eterna: Interview with Tony Faulkner on Vimeo

CM3 work very well as the central pair in this context also....perhaps with different spacing and angling....rich grounds for experimentation !

There will be a test on this in class first lesson Monday morning....be prepared
Old 1 week ago
  #1883
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
Marche turque du Bourgeois Gentilhomme de Lully. Great music and playing !
Here's another brief segment...mathieujm, you have 10 seconds recognition time to name this piece also ... s'íl vous plait !

This time it's just the CM3 pair alone, no omnis at 67cm, I think that helps to cut down the bass woof of the room a little better, as rojaros noted ?

CM3's at 47cms, 90 degrees angle (ie each 45 off centre) ...thus, much wider than NOS (but ok when combined with omnis as per Faulkner 4 mic usage)
Fan noise really only evident at the end.
Attached Files
Old 1 week ago
  #1884
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jpgerard's Avatar
Anyone else hear tuning issues? Sorry, it seems that with age, I tend to focus on the musical component more and more. Weird for a die hard sound guy but there you have it. I like the balance a lot in this one, just one CM3 pair, nicely done.
Old 1 week ago
  #1885
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fred2bern's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Anyone else hear tuning issues? Sorry, it seems that with age, I tend to focus on the musical component more and more. Weird for a die hard sound guy but there you have it. I like the balance a lot in this one, just one CM3 pair, nicely done.
C'est clair...
Old 1 week ago
  #1886
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The 47 cm as suggested by TF seems exceptionally wide for an ORTFish setup. Theoretically one would expect another hole in the middle effect. Has anyone experimented with other distances like NOS etc. within the TF array?
Old 1 week ago
  #1887
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jpgerard's Avatar
But the CM3 is a Wide Cardioid
Old 1 week ago
  #1888
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rojaros's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Anyone else hear tuning issues? Sorry, it seems that with age, I tend to focus on the musical component more and more. Weird for a die hard sound guy but there you have it. I like the balance a lot in this one, just one CM3 pair, nicely done.
Tuning issues and it takes some time for them to get their rhythm together ... well, yeah, recording is all about music, isn't it?

Soundwise I like the CM3 recording better than the other one (at least as the boominess aspect goes). The other one had a greater presence... Maybe this Faulkner array with other omnis?

Or maybe just NOS with CM3 and playing around with the angle due to wide cardioid characteristics?
Old 1 week ago
  #1889
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rojaros View Post
Tuning issues and it takes some time for them to get their rhythm together ... well, yeah, recording is all about music, isn't it?

Soundwise I like the CM3 recording better than the other one (at least as the boominess aspect goes). The other one had a greater presence... Maybe this Faulkner array with other omnis?

Or maybe just NOS with CM3 and playing around with the angle due to wide cardioid characteristics?
yes, well it was a rehearsal, after all...and I'm sure the following concert was much better because of it

CM3's alone benefit from NOS....when used in a Faulkner array the relative ratio between omnis and centre mics usually varies over quite a range (6-9dB or more in most cases, 50/50 hardly ever sounds any good to my ears)

As you'll have seen from the Tony F videos, the 4 mic array is very much a 'get you out of jail card', when either through insufficient setup time or limitations in mic stand placement, you're not in the right place for either omnis or cardiods alone...hence the blend option.
Old 1 week ago
  #1890
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Agree, the CM-3's alone sound really good.

I found it interesting in the Faulkner interviews that he still refers to his center pair as ORTF even though they're 47cm apart, not 17cm. Is this just him taking artistic license, or is there something more to it?
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