The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Tags: , , ,

CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 14th September 2018
  #1831
Lives for gear
 
hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2manyrocks View Post
A little less Schantz and a little more mariachi would liven things up....
Ahhhhhh... you know that room...



HB
Old 18th September 2018
  #1832
Gear Nut
 

pair of CM3s for vocals

I usually press my CM3s into service as a main pair for large choral pieces, but recently I tried them in front of a delightful vocal ensemble in a cozy and dry venue. CM3s were in "wide" ORTF (110*, 21.5cm capsule spacing). The performers' preferences for positioning and venue constraints put them rather close to the microphones.

The final mix of this trio's performance included NR and EQ to remove HVAC and traffic, reverb, and a pair of C414's on the piano. Here is only the CM3s with no processing whatsoever other than levels adjustment and dithering.
Attached Files

trio.mp3 (3.18 MB, 2379 views)

Old 18th September 2018
  #1833
Lives for gear
 
rojaros's Avatar
I think this is a very respectable mic performance ... I'm not missing anything, given it is a live recording!
Old 19th September 2018
  #1834
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrReid View Post
I usually press my CM3s into service as a main pair for large choral pieces, but recently I tried them in front of a delightful vocal ensemble in a cozy and dry venue. CM3s were in "wide" ORTF (110*, 21.5cm capsule spacing). The performers' preferences for positioning and venue constraints put them rather close to the microphones.

The final mix of this trio's performance included NR and EQ to remove HVAC and traffic, reverb, and a pair of C414's on the piano. Here is only the CM3s with no processing whatsoever other than levels adjustment and dithering.
A nice recording, renders all the detail outlined in your description
Old 26th October 2018
  #1835
Here for the gear
 

Sharing a recent recording

Hello all!

I'm a recent poster, but a long time reader. I've perused this forum for the last two years, learning everything I can about location recording; what equipment is good, techniques, mic placement, etc. This was done in preparation for recording one of my groups, and as an opportunity to learn something new. Tonight I'd like to share one of my recordings as a result of all of this research. I particularly paid attention to the array's used by Boojum/Norman, as they seemed to offer an ideal solution that offers maximum flexibility.

I'm placing it here, because it utilizes the Line Audio CM3. They were used as mains, specifically in a NOS formation, with a pair of Rode NT5 with omni capsules flanking them on a bar at 67 cm. The whole setup was about 10 feet back from the conductor's podium, 10 feet over the stage. They were mixed with the CM3's about 2db lower than the Rodes. This sounded best to my ears in this situation. I think they compliment each other quite well. The ambient sound is 95% the actual room, with a slight enhancement from convolution reverb to help smooth out the tail.

I'm sharing this mostly as a thank you to everyone on this forum, extremely knowledgeable all, and a well of information from which to learn. I'd love to hear thoughts on this track. Please keep in mind that it is a high school wind band performing this piece, so the performance can be a little shaky at times.

Thank you all!

PS: I tried to upload the file, but perhaps it's too large, as it continuously failed. I am instead linking to my Google Drive. Hopefully this works better.

Galante_Beyond_the_Horizon.mp3 - Google Drive
Old 26th October 2018
  #1836
Anyone any views on the CM3 as a close mic for things like acoustic guitar? I shot mine out with a KM84 on acoustic (15” from body join, strummed and fingerpicked) and the KM84 sounded way better in that application. Thinking of selling my pair of CM3s now.
Old 26th October 2018
  #1837
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermetech Mastering View Post
Anyone any views on the CM3 as a close mic for things like acoustic guitar? I shot mine out with a KM84 on acoustic (15” from body join, strummed and fingerpicked) and the KM84 sounded way better in that application. Thinking of selling my pair of CM3s now.
Further up in the thread there are some recordings and video of a classical guitarist using a CM-3 and he seemed quite happy with it.

As an aside, I've started using my CM-3 in live sound applications on small stages. I was apprehensive about feedback and bleed on a small stage since these are "semi-wide" cardioids, but they have performed very well. A few weekends ago I used them for a series of concerts I do every year that features uilleann pipers. The drones are always difficult to mic on stage since they're a moving target and there are three drones of varying length -- you have to keep some distance to get a representative sound, and supercardiod or hypercardioid mics tend to pick up one drone more than the others. The CM-3 was the perfect tool for this and I got the best drone sound I've had in 10+ years of doing these concerts.

I also used it for the chanter for the first half of one concert, but switched to a Sennheiser 8050 in the second half, which worked better -- the sound quality was comparable but I wanted less bleed from the regulators (the keys that uilleann pipers hit with their wrist while playing melody on the chanter).
Old 29th October 2018
  #1838
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
The CM3 was never meant to replace the KM84. The KM84 is flat way down under 100Hz, there's no proximity compensation until you hit the really low end. The top of the 84 is also slightly, slightly forward where it sounds nice (I know, very technical terms here whereas the CM3 is aiming for ruler flat top end past the air band. I always felt that the 184 was a closer sound compared to the CM3 although I still prefer the top end of the CM3 unless a top lift is desired. At longer distances, the 184 becomes interesting. At short distances the 84 can get boomy, while the CM3 doesn't. The CM3 is wider than either Neumanns so shootouts are difficult, as the sweet spot id different... All in all I do miss my 84's and 85's but never felt I'd miss a 184 with a CM3. If an 84 is required, you need to use an 84. A CM3 can't be a direct sub. But if you start from scratch, a CM3, positioned properly, will sound more natural and true than an 84. Not that it's better: I love the 84 tone. But the CM3 can be more "transparent" which can be good or bad, depending on the project. As we all know, the U89 and TLM170 or 193 are all superior to the U87 but the U87 is still everyone's (OK, most people's) favourite for Rock vocals... "better" is very subjective. I have a lot of customers who own Neumanns and other higher priced SDC's and yet prefer their CM3's on some sources, in some settings. Different tools, that's all.
Old 29th October 2018
  #1839
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bradh View Post
Further up in the thread there are some recordings and video of a classical guitarist using a CM-3 and he seemed quite happy with it.

As an aside, I've started using my CM-3 in live sound applications on small stages...
I know, right? I had the same exact feeling yet I started to get customers using it on stage and raving about it. Key is the HF response control, I think. There aren't any untamed peaks in the top end, so it's actually difficult to trigger feedback unless you have a real mess of a room and stage monitors setup. Also, stage volumes are WAY lower these days, thank goodness for that... so feedback is not as big an issue as it used to be. Then you have potentially more directional FOH loudspeakers and better processing clamping feedback loops and the human factor is also important: we don't just slap a smiley curve EQ on the mains anymore. Engineers tend to be more efficient and flexible, at least some of them!
Old 31st October 2018
  #1840
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Also, stage volumes are WAY lower these days, thank goodness for that... so feedback is not as big an issue as it used to be. Then you have potentially more directional FOH loudspeakers and better processing clamping feedback loops and the human factor is also important: we don't just slap a smiley curve EQ on the mains anymore. Engineers tend to be more efficient and flexible, at least some of them!
In my case, when I do live sound I'm only doing it for acoustic music and only for solo players, duos, or small groups (4-6 people max). I often don't use monitors at all if performers can hear each other well on stage. And either no EQ on the main outs or else I run a room-tuning test with pink noise and a measurement mic and let the mixer's room-tuning tool set the EQ of the main outs (which usually results in very minor EQ adjustments). For many instruments I apply no EQ except for high pass/low cut. Super simple,and the sound is great...the key is good mics, the right mics for the instrument (or voice), and good placement. Sometimes it just takes a lot of trial and error to find the right mic for the instrument, and in this case the CM-3 was the right choice for what I needed.
Old 31st October 2018
  #1841
Lives for gear
 
James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hermetech Mastering View Post
Thinking of selling my pair of CM3s now.
PM me if you do - I might be interested in a pair.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1842
here's another classical guitar recording, 'El Testamento Di Amelia' in A Minor, this one has some lexicon reverb on it and I used my portico 511 pres instead of the audient iD22 pres, there's some minor amount of processing with an elysia alpha compressor then the steinberg brickwall limiter, hope you all like it, thanks.
Attached Files
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1843
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by pencilextremist View Post
here's another classical guitar recording, 'El Testamento Di Amelia' in A Minor, this one has some lexicon reverb on it and I used my portico 511 pres instead of the audient iD22 pres, there's some minor amount of processing with an elysia alpha compressor then the steinberg brickwall limiter, hope you all like it, thanks.
It sounds very pleasant...and seems to have survived all that (yet, subtle) processing quite unscathed It would be an interesting exercise to hear the same piece with the reverb left on, but with the compression and limiting left off, just for comparison purposes ?

For a budget-end mic, it fights above its weight very well indeed..this is a much smoother sound than a Rode NT5 cardioid, for example. Ribbon mics might make a good alternative too ?
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1844
Lives for gear
 
rojaros's Avatar
Very nice indeed. Quite smooth and silky. What kind of array did you use for the guitar? AB or NOS? What distance? Cud you describe your positioning, please
Why do you need a brick wall limiter?

As for reverb, personally I'd use a pinch less, but that's a matter of preferences. Very nice, again.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1845
Quote:
Originally Posted by rojaros View Post
Very nice indeed. Quite smooth and silky. What kind of array did you use for the guitar? AB or NOS? What distance? Cud you describe your positioning, please
Why do you need a brick wall limiter?

As for reverb, personally I'd use a pinch less, but that's a matter of preferences. Very nice, again.
hi thanks for listening,

I used X/Y position (I think but not certain), it was something like 1 foot away from memory, it was recorded almost 18 months ago and I didn't write down any notes like I normally do.

The brick wall limiter was only for just one peak which is quite loud, to prevent it clipping.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1846
here it is again, completely dry, no processing whatsoever for comparison purposes. so it's rupert neve designs 511 mic pres into my audient iD22 and the line audio cm3 pair in X/Y around 1 foot away, the mic pre didn't have silk or the LPF engaged.
Attached Files
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1847
Lives for gear
I like it more with comp and limiting and reverb (tho maybe just a hair less reverb than you used the first time)
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1848
Lives for gear
 
rojaros's Avatar
Maybe half of the reverb would be the best for my ears... the limiter doesn't seem to do much here... Thanks a lot.
Old 2 weeks ago
  #1849
thanks for the feedback, if I release it I will turn the reverb down.
Old 1 week ago
  #1850
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
I can see both as useful depending on the desired result... I do like unprocessed recordings more, but the appeal of the treated example is obvious.
Old 1 week ago
  #1851
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
CM3 fares quite well as a mono vocal spot, supported by a main pair of AB spaced KM183's overhead
Nice recording Studer. One question, how overhead exactly were the omni's placed? Why not next to the CM3?
Old 1 week ago
  #1852
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucas_G View Post
Nice recording Studer. One question, how overhead exactly were the omni's placed? Why not next to the CM3?
Re: post#1810....
For that recording, a bit too high than is ideal, really. About 11 feet. However, they are permanently hard wired to a suspension in that spot....a non-negotiable, non adjustable one size fits all location It does get a lovely capture of the piano and the hall though, so one just brings the singer and piano in close enough to the overheads to make them deliver the goods....

CM3 added to give a bit of mono vocal solidity and focus/clarity to a very wide and ambient main pair image (being mono it helps to negate any tendency towards voice image wander, if she'd turned her head......although XY stereo spots on voice could also have accomplished similar, but with less success....a low-in-level mono anchor can be quite ok, if the main pair are spacious and luscious !
Old 1 week ago
  #1853
Lives for gear
 
rojaros's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Re: post#1810....
For that recording, a bit too high than is ideal, really. About 11 feet. However, they are permanently hard wired to a suspension in that spot....a non-negotiable, non adjustable one size fits all location It does get a lovely capture of the piano and the hall though, so one just brings the singer and piano in close enough to the overheads to make them deliver the goods....

CM3 added to give a bit of mono vocal solidity and focus/clarity to a very wide and ambient main pair image (being mono it helps to negate any tendency towards voice image wander, if she'd turned her head......although XY stereo spots on voice could also have accomplished similar, but with less success....a low-in-level mono anchor can be quite ok, if the main pair are spacious and luscious !
I have always had good results having a mid microphone (mostly cardioid) as a third in a near coincident or spaced pair, mixed at center to taste ... this techniques was used already in the 1950's (if I remember right by Mercury) to track symphonic orchestras with spectacular results. I think they belonged to the first companies producing stereo LPs. The stage was rock solid.
Old 1 week ago
  #1854
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rojaros View Post
I have always had good results having a mid microphone (mostly cardioid) as a third in a near coincident or spaced pair, mixed at center to taste ... this techniques was used already in the 1950's (if I remember right by Mercury) to track symphonic orchestras with spectacular results. I think they belonged to the first companies producing stereo LPs. The stage was rock solid.
Mercury (or more likely RCA Living Stereo) used 3 spaced mics 'across the front'....but the spacing was such that the mics were decorrelated from one another, so no phase issues. However, with the proximity you're describing here, I would have thought it would be inviting of such cancellations...that you'd be creating a substantially lumpy response, by having multiple pickups of the same source (comb filtering and the like ?)

However, I see recent YouTube videos of well established singers and such close-mic arrays in use with the likes of DG, Decca etc....so maybe it doesn't matter after all....unless use of those closer spots is an either/or situation ?
Old 1 week ago
  #1855
Lives for gear
 
rojaros's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Mercury (or more likely RCA Living Stereo) used 3 spaced mics 'across the front'....but the spacing was such that the mics were decorrelated from one another, so no phase issues. However, with the proximity you're describing here, I would have thought it would be inviting of such cancellations...that you'd be creating a substantially lumpy response, by having multiple pickups of the same source (comb filtering and the like ?)

However, I see recent YouTube videos of well established singers and such close-mic arrays in use with the likes of DG, Decca etc....so maybe it doesn't matter after all....unless use of those closer spots is an either/or situation ?
My hearing may be no to precise, but I always thought that even if there should be slight phase effects involved the benefit is much larger than the damage. I envision the whole array as a kind of combination of what MS recording does but with the advantage of a near coincident array introducing also runtime differences which in my ears always adds some vividness and life to the sound...

That's my personal hearing experience, though, and maybe it wouldn't stand a very analytical hearing in a perfect studio surrounding...
Old 1 week ago
  #1856
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by rojaros View Post
That's my personal hearing experience, though, and maybe it wouldn't stand a very analytical hearing in a perfect studio surrounding...
That's often the way theory and practice collide....if it works for you, keep doing it ! The Mercury or RCA centre mic was put there to offset the sense of a "hole in the middle"....because their spacings were large (outer mics were often 10 or more feet apart, so the centre mic gave solidity and even-ness, across the left to right field.

With your near coincident mics however, the cardioid patterns combine to create a phantom centre...so really a centre mic shouldn't be required...or if it's used it should tend to pull the image into the centre, and to make it more mono, as you increase the level of the centre mic. I'd expect this effect to be less obvious in the case of more widely-spaced mics.
Old 1 week ago
  #1857
Lives for gear
 
JCBigler's Avatar
You guys have any experience lately using the Line Audio 2MP mic preamps? I'm thinking of picking up a pair to use on small jobs with my Clarett 4Pre.

I know there was some discussion in this thread earlier on about them, but haven't seen much about them in the last few years.
Old 1 week ago
  #1858
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
So far nothing but happy 2MP & 8MP owners... if you're into clean amplification, you'll like them.
Old 1 week ago
  #1859
Lives for gear
The main thing that would steer me past the 2MP or 8MP would be the gain pots not having calibrated click stops like the DAV BG2 or BG8 does. Getting repeatable matching of at least the main mic pair without such calibration would have to be done by ear. Apart from that I'd have no other reservations on a technical level.

Last edited by studer58; 1 week ago at 10:37 AM..
Old 1 week ago
  #1860
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
Good point - Roger doesn't want to change the design to allow for expensive rotary switches, as he doesn't like the lack of precision of detented pots... I know it would be a great option, I for one would love it for bench work, but alas it won't happen.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Plugin / So much gear, so little time
10
adclark / Low End Theory
31
hollywood_steve / The Good News Channel
0

Forum Jump
Forum Jump