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CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 25th November 2017
  #1681
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Your budget is the limiting factor. In that price range you have a couple of ribbons like the Fat Head or the LRM2, but while a ribbon can sound great on some material, I'd hesitate to recommend a low-end ribbon as your first/only bidirectional mic.

The AT2050 is a nice, versatile, relatively transparent sounding LDC, and you get a lot of utility for your money. I bought a pair and use them a lot more than I thought I would.
I should mention that I'm not into music - I suppose I'm more properly considered a field recordist. I probably over-constrained the problem. I do want to match up with a CM3. I'm definitely NOT very interested in dabbling in this with a $1500 mic. But I don't need for it to be strictly <= the price of a CM3. Perhaps up to around $500 or thereabouts? At this particular instant I'm a little sensitive to price because I just bought a MixPre-6 and some OM1's. I'm not in a big rush, as I said it's really a matter of experimentation. (But that also is a reason why I'm sensitive to price here.)

I'm a bit afraid of a true ribbon, as they seem to be almost tragically delicate. I'm a n00b, though, so perhaps I'm making more of that than is realistic?
Old 25th November 2017
  #1682
Lives for gear
 
jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by blwatlongwood View Post
If one were wanting to experiment with M/S using a CM3 as the mid, what would be a good match as a side mic? Ideally in the same price range, but I suspect that is unrealistic.
I have managed to find used AT 4050 mics in the $250- $450 (USD) range - excellent mics at that price! For SDC side mic, I think the only thing that would come close in price is the Oktava Mk-012 with the figure 8 capsule; I don't know anything about the quality of the fig 8, but as cardioid mics they are fine.
Old 25th November 2017
  #1683
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moke View Post
The t-bar,...
A pair of dissected $1-store Rabbit Ear antennae.
I took them off of their base mount, and, found an all-thread rod connector ferrule that matched the diameter of the rabbit ears. I epoxied the thread rod connector to the ends of both extension, and added a male thread set to one of them, to create a break down extension. They join butt-to-butt, and extend outwardly away from each other. In total, they're good for about a ~6'- spanning.
I use #2 pencil eraser caps as mic clips. I split them down the center length wise, just far enough to get them split. They self-close back onto the mic cable, and hold it tenaciously. But, this is a DPA thing, not a CM3 thing.

...

T-Bar - DIY fishing wader neoprene pouch - all-thread rod ferrules and male thread - pass through Manfrotto MiniClamp.
The rabbit ears also velcro well to the stereo t-bar, like in the above images.
Wow, that's way too DIY for my skillset. Soldering I can do. Anything mechanical, forget it. I salute your entrepreneurial spirit! And whatever you do, definitely name it. The weirder the better.
Old 25th November 2017
  #1684
Gear Nut
 
Moke's Avatar
 

The hardest part was a screwdriver to unscrew the separate antenna pieces, and, getting a screw cut so that it was thread only, to fit into the connecting rod ferrule.
It took longer to drive to the hardware store to fit the connecting ferrule to the antenna (1/4-20 thread), than it did anything else.
Someone at the hardware store would probably cut the screw for you.
DIY,...? this would be a good starting project.

I'm a long, long time B&K / DPA fan boy, dating back to 1989, when they release the 4011 cardioids. My partner and I ran what was in all likeliness the first pair on the west coast.
When I had my DPA compact mics (both 4022 compact cardioids and 4028 compact sub-cardioids), I made stereo bars for them. When I sold them, I parted ways with those stereo bars, as they were specifically built to match the mics.
I called those stereo bars my Axis-Reference Stereo Bars. They were intended like the protractor mic stereo bars by the big makers.
Mine were purpose built for the mics mentioned, so I didn't need to have adjustability other than the width of holes, intended for the various stereo patterns.
The first images show my DPA 4028 Axis-Reference Stereo Bar.
The bar is aluminum plate, with a t-nut riveted to the center with 3/8-16 thread.
The mic clips are all brass tubing and washers that are flame soldered, and then dipped in Plasti-Dip tool handle dip.

When I bought the Line Audio pair, the first thing I did was build a new Axis-Reference Stereo Bar, purpose built for the cm3 pair. This is the last three images; and they are of it in its early stages of development. Again, aluminum and a 3/8-16 t-nut riveted on.

OK,... as a long time fan boy of a clinical assesment microphone line,... I'm completely blown away by these Line Audio mics.
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-img_3450jpg.jpg   CM3 - really THAT good?-img_3451jpg.jpg   CM3 - really THAT good?-img_3452jpg.jpg   CM3 - really THAT good?-dscn2920_zpsijbsusrw.jpg   CM3 - really THAT good?-dscn2921_zpsnftkxbez.jpg  

CM3 - really THAT good?-dscn2923_zps9fkoc3fg.jpg  

Last edited by Moke; 27th December 2017 at 08:04 PM..
Old 25th November 2017
  #1685
Lives for gear
 
celticrogues's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
I think the only thing that would come close in price is the Oktava Mk-012 with the figure 8 capsule; I don't know anything about the quality of the fig 8, but as cardioid mics they are fine.
There is no figure-8 capsule for the MK-012 that I know about. The figure-8 adapter just allows you to mount two cardioid capsules back to back, which IMO would be a fairly bad figure-8 capsule because it would not be very coincident at all.

MBHO makes a true figure-8 mic that would run about $850 I believe, but that's the cheapest SDC true figure-8 capsule I know about. There are some decent LDC capsules though.

-Mike
Old 25th November 2017
  #1686
Lives for gear
 
jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by celticrogues View Post
There is no figure-8 capsule for the MK-012 that I know about. The figure-8 adapter just allows you to mount two cardioid capsules back to back, which IMO would be a fairly bad figure-8 capsule because it would not be very coincident at all.

MBHO makes a true figure-8 mic that would run about $850 I believe, but that's the cheapest SDC true figure-8 capsule I know about. There are some decent LDC capsules though.

-Mike
I don't know if this qualifies as SDC, but it screws on the Mk-012 body...judging by the photo and knowing the diameter of the screw mount, maybe 12 - 15 mm? And I think its just two back-to-back capsules - ie. dual diaphragm.
Old 25th November 2017
  #1687
Lives for gear
Thanks Jim...review with considerable detail here: Oktava Figure-8 Capsule Review | recording hacks

I'd avoid their "other fig 8 capsule pair": https://www.thomann.de/gb/oktava_mk0...ht_adaptor.htm The capsule spacing there is reported to be about 70mm...is it significantly less with the 012 fig capsule ?
Old 25th November 2017
  #1688
Gear Addict
 
fred2bern's Avatar
Another option:
AKG SE300 + CK94
Old 26th November 2017
  #1689
Lives for gear
 
emrr's Avatar
I have doubts the round Oktava figure 8 is any closer on the capsules, in fact they've advertised that package as taking the regular cardioid caps at one point. 70mm is a measurement I'm taking from the T shaped version I own. From memory I think that's double the distance of a KM-86. You can hear the oddness a bit, might be ok for a R&R record, doubtful on any attempts at a natural full frequency recording.

An AKG SE300 + CK94 sold for all of $293 on ebay recently. I haven't heard that one.
Old 26th November 2017
  #1690
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moke View Post

When I bought the Line Audio pair, the first thing I did was build a new Axis-Reference Stereo Bar, purpose built for the cm3 pair. This is the last three images; and they are of it in its early stages of development. Again, aluminum and a 3/8-16 t-nut riveted on.

OK,... as a long time fan boy of a clinical assesment microphone line,... I'm completely blown away by these Line Audio mics.
At present there are not so many things for the audio scene to build by myself, the standards are most of the time too high. What is left (for me) are mechanical things and wiring. And when I saw the stereo bar of Moke, it triggered me to share also two pictures of my little hobby project. I do record most life performances and setup time is mostly short. A dedicated ORTF bar for my CM3 mics speed up things a little. The connection is by a quad cable and 5 pin XLR. My case has a 1U strip with also a 5 pin XLR, wired to my pre-amp.
(sorry for my bad english).
Kind regards,
Sjoerd
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-_mg_1609.jpg   CM3 - really THAT good?-_mg_1607.jpg  
Old 27th November 2017
  #1691
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjoerd View Post
At present there are not so many things for the audio scene to build by myself, the standards are most of the time too high. What is left (for me) are mechanical things and wiring.
A nice bit of DIY engineering and construction there....I'll bet I could time your setup with a stopwatch and you'd be ready to go in under 20 seconds !

The only thing missing is some shock/vibration mounting for the CM3's, which are susceptible to low frequency floor-borne vibrations. You could simply put a trio of sorbothane feet pads under the tripod, and fix most of that too.....
Old 7th December 2017
  #1692
Gear Nut
 

I've read the CM3s need quite a bit of gain. Is anyone here running them with a Tascam DR100 mkiii? Just wondering if I'll have enough gain to make these work.
Old 7th December 2017
  #1693
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
Quite a bit of gain compared to what? At -44dBV they're typical of classic pencil mics. And I've used CM3's with my DR100MKII without problems, haven't checked the MKIII but it's probably even better in terms of performance so you should be good to go. Keep in mind the CM3's noise of 16dBA, regardless of sensitivity - extremely quiet rooms may yield recordings where hiss is audible during silences. But obviously under normal circumstances residual noise won't be an issue.
Old 7th December 2017
  #1694
Gear Nut
Here are three recent recordings with the CM-3 on piano. Love them!







Can't say enough about the D.A.V. Electronics BG-8 pre-amp and Antelope Audio conversion either.
Old 7th December 2017
  #1695
Gear Nut
 

Thanks jp, that's the info I needed. Just placed an order.
Old 7th December 2017
  #1696
Lives for gear
 
hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrshv80 View Post
... Can't say enough about the D.A.V. Electronics BG-8 pre-amp and Antelope Audio conversion either.
Nice chain, to be certain... was happy with my BG-8 in 2008 when I bought it... still am, nearly a decade later.
Old 7th December 2017
  #1697
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mandodon View Post
I've read the CM3s need quite a bit of gain. Is anyone here running them with a Tascam DR100 mkiii? Just wondering if I'll have enough gain to make these work.
They're fine. When I did a straight-up comparison against my KM-140's, the CM-3's needed one more notch of gain on the D.A.V. I haven't used them on any whisper-quiet sources yet, but overall they hold up well and noise hasn't been an issue.
Old 7th December 2017
  #1698
Lives for gear
 
G-Sun's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrshv80 View Post
Here are three recent recordings with the CM-3 on piano. Love them!
Sounds beautiful!
Old 8th December 2017
  #1699
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
As I recall the KM140 had a published sensitivity of 15mV/PA or -36.5dBV so that would be 7,5 dBS hotter than the CM3. However there are references to a KM140 Sens. quoted at 12mV/Pa. Neumann USA said it was basically a typo. So if that's correct the above difference should be right. Self noise is 16dBA for both mics.
Old 8th December 2017
  #1700
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
As I recall the KM140 had a published sensitivity of 15mV/PA or -36.5dBV so that would be 7,5 dBS hotter than the CM3. However there are references to a KM140 Sens. quoted at 12mV/Pa. Neumann USA said it was basically a typo. So if that's correct the above difference should be right. Self noise is 16dBA for both mics.
That seems about right—though in theory that would have require two clicks on the D.A.V. (4db steps). But other differences between the two mics could certainly account for another couple of dB difference in overall level.
Old 8th December 2017
  #1701
Lives for gear
 
jpgerard's Avatar
Which could hint at some early 140's having actually a 12mV/Pa sensitivity... could someone check either by comparison with another mic of known sensitivity or with a test tone generator through a speaker and an SPL Meter to check that the SPL at the mic is 94dB SPL? Then we'd get a reading (mV would be best to avoid dB scale reference issues). Not that it will change the world but I can imagine that some KM140 users or potential buyers (even if used) might want to know if they went from 12 to 15mV/Pa.
Old 8th December 2017
  #1702
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Which could hint at some early 140's having actually a 12mV/Pa sensitivity... could someone check either by comparison with another mic of known sensitivity or with a test tone generator through a speaker and an SPL Meter to check that the SPL at the mic is 94dB SPL? Then we'd get a reading (mV would be best to avoid dB scale reference issues). Not that it will change the world but I can imagine that some KM140 users or potential buyers (even if used) might want to know if they went from 12 to 15mV/Pa.
I'd have to be really bored (and even more geeky than I already am) to do that. I bought my KM140's new around 1990, so I guess they would qualify as early models. But to be honest, I'm not concerned about the specs. I practice the Neanderthal process: hear sound, see meters, adjust input levels. If it got more complicated than that I'd have to fire myself.
Old 8th December 2017
  #1703
Lives for gear
 
emrr's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by seanmccoy View Post
The Neumanns were A (ORTF), the Line Audio was B (NOS). One thing I've found interesting is that some people felt the CM-3's were brighter, while to my ear the 140's are clearly brighter and the CM-3's warmer. The different perceptions may be partly due to the material being recorded. While there was no definitive answer here, my take is that I'll tend to use the 140's on lighter material and concertos, and the CM-3's on the bombastic stuff.
I heard these as you did in terms of overall brightness. It seems like there's maybe something a bit higher in frequency in the CM-3's that stands out more relative to the same frequency in the KM140's, but overall they are not as bright to me. I don't know that I could fault either one without hearing the other, and it doesn't seem like it would take much EQ at all to match them. Generally I preferred the KM140 as-was, it's sound fit 'expectations' a bit more.

Conversely, most of my work is recording studio / free field, and I'm always fighting/avoiding the diffuse field tailoring of the KM140. The CM-3 would probably win that one, and I should get some and try on that thought.
Old 13th December 2017
  #1704
Gear Nut
 
Moke's Avatar
 

The video of the Dvorak in America concert was just upped.
This is the first set:
Poway Symphony Orchestra website link:
Videos
links you to:
Poway Symphony 11-19-17 1 of 2.mp4 - Google Drive

The sound track is from this audio master file set. The two channel stereo master, wide-ORTF stereo 20cm spacing at 110º combined off-axis response
Poway Symphony Orchestra Live at CM3 wide-ORTF Stereo Pair 2448 on 2017-11-19 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
Poway Symphony Orchestra Live at CM3 wide-ORTF Stereo Pair 1644 on 2017-11-19 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
Old 13th December 2017
  #1705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moke View Post
The video of the Dvorak in America concert was just upped.
This is the first set:
Poway Symphony Orchestra website link:
Videos
links you to:
Poway Symphony 11-19-17 1 of 2.mp4 - Google Drive

The sound track is from this audio master file set. The two channel stereo master, wide-ORTF stereo 20cm spacing at 110º combined off-axis response
Poway Symphony Orchestra Live at CM3 wide-ORTF Stereo Pair 2448 on 2017-11-19 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
Poway Symphony Orchestra Live at CM3 wide-ORTF Stereo Pair 1644 on 2017-11-19 : Free Download & Streaming : Internet Archive
Love the sound - the video, not so much. I keep thinking that if the tech director had a score and knew how to read it, the close up cameras would be pointing at the featured instruments!
Old 13th December 2017
  #1706
Gear Nut
 
Moke's Avatar
 

@TMetzinger

Thanks! appreciated.

re: video,...
Yeah, thats sort of a mail-in effort with the video.
Hes a bit of an older gent, and, has been at this for a while. I noticed a lot of choppiness in the edits.
He runs two cameras, one static fixed shot, and the other has a panning joy stick attachment/function. And it seemed to just run back and forth. Automatic? Hand operated? I know nothing about video production.

Me, I was right next to him, recording the soles of my shoes, stupidly enough.
I hauled my binaural head up to the balcony, and clamped it ot the balcony rail. Just as I was going to get a soundcheck for it, the video guy arrived, and we got to blabbering, and, I lost track of what I was doing. In that moment, I jacked the binaural output into the headphone jack of the recorder, which caused it to go to default of internal mics. i got the soundcheck completed, then set it on the floor, at my feet, for the next couple of hours of 2448 recording.
Year 36 of recording starts with a bang.
At least I had the main rig running properly.

This probably isn't the right thread to rant about the Faulkner 4.Mic Phased Array, is it?
Yeah, that one won't be coming out again for a while; or at least done as a baffled omni version to reduce of the omni cross-talk crap.
Old 13th December 2017
  #1707
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moke View Post
@TMetzinger

<snip>.

This probably isn't the right thread to rant about the Faulkner 4.Mic Phased Array, is it?
Yeah, that one won't be coming out again for a while; or at least done as a baffled omni version to reduce of the omni cross-talk crap.
I'd like to hear your rants on this, as I've found the boojum/jnorman version pretty solid for my uses.
Old 14th December 2017
  #1708
Gear Nut
 
Moke's Avatar
 

@TMetzinger

sorry,... misguided negativity. cancelled thought.

Last edited by Moke; 14th December 2017 at 12:56 AM..
Old 21st December 2017
  #1709
Lives for gear
Simple....CM3 pair, NOS, nice church acoustic, talented string quartet, classic pop tune, no added 'verb or compression...leave it at that
Attached Files

Stand.mp3 (1.62 MB, 1508 views)

Old 21st December 2017
  #1710
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Simple....CM3 pair, NOS, nice church acoustic, talented string quartet, classic pop tune, no added 'verb or compression...leave it at that
I thought I'd heard just about every arrangement of that tune, but you added one to the list. Beautiful playing and recording. Simply nice.
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