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CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 20th June 2017
  #1561
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrich View Post
Of course, I forgot, that's today's only criterion: Is it cheap, or even better, for free.
Sorry for thinking about quality. Should do this only when gear is concerned. Music doesn't matter...
Of course quality matters. But it's youTube. It's not a CD sitting in a store, or a download on iTunes. It's the equivalent of a home movie (though better quality - nice capture to the OP).
Old 21st June 2017
  #1562
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrich View Post
Why does this have to be on youtube with so many wrong notes in the solo part...?
Tough crowd, lol. She has a doctorate in music and is quite accomplished, but live music is live music. None of us are perfect robots. I'm sure given the opportunity, she would want to re-record it, but it was not in the church's budget for me nor the pianist.
Old 21st June 2017
  #1563
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrich View Post
Why does this have to be on youtube with so many wrong notes in the solo part...?
Haven't you figured it out yet...YouTube is the official repository for all the wrong notes played in the whole world these days
Old 21st June 2017
  #1564
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrshv80 View Post
This recording sounds wonderful. You picked up the perfect mix of ambient vs. direct sound from the piano. Did you have to use any EQ?
If you look carefully in the video, you'll see also a pair of Line Audio OM-1 at the tail end of the piano. So it's a blend of the 2 spot mic pairs, plus an AB overhead of KM183 mics...no EQ required however
Old 21st June 2017
  #1565
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ulrich View Post
Of course, I forgot, that's today's only criterion: Is it cheap, or even better, for free.
Sorry for thinking about quality. Should do this only when gear is concerned. Music doesn't matter...
Yes, it was an awful performance and badly recorded.
Old 21st June 2017
  #1566
Gear Nut
 
Moke's Avatar
 

Well, hopefully this one will be received well?!
Here is an acoustic orchestral recording with the CM3 pair in a near-coincidence stereo pattern. The mics are at the stage lip, centered. I flew them low for the videographer, and also, to lessen the direct impulse of the brass, and to be more in-line with the strings.
There are also other samples of the three recording that I did of this concert that highlight baffled omni stereo (baffle directly below CM3 pair, on-stage), and boundary layer stereo from the balcony.

https://archive.org/details/pso2017-....edit_2448flac
https://archive.org/details/pso2017-....edit_1644flac

a link to one of the event images that show the mic array, in relation to the orchestra:
https://ia801606.us.archive.org/15/i...c/DSCN3415.jpg
Old 22nd June 2017
  #1567
Gear Nut
[QUOTE=Lurcher_lover;12691253]Yes, it was an awful performance and badly recorded.[/QUOTE

Fair enough Lurcher, how would you have recorded differently? Please enlighten as to what aspects are bad otherwise the criticism is not constructive.
Old 22nd June 2017
  #1568
Gear Nut
[QUOTE=Chrshv80;12693649]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lurcher_lover View Post
Yes, it was an awful performance and badly recorded.[/QUOTE

Fair enough, my dear, beloved Lurcher, how would you have recorded differently? Please enlighten as to what aspects are bad otherwise the criticism is not constructive.
The violins had a terrible metallic like sound with absolutely no body to the sound whatsoever. Sorry, but you did ask!

I would almost certainly have positioned the mic's differently, and/or used other mic's and/or recorded in a different acoustic.
Old 22nd June 2017
  #1569
Gear Nut
[QUOTE=Lurcher_lover;12693805]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chrshv80 View Post

The violins had a terrible metallic like sound with absolutely no body to the sound whatsoever. Sorry, but you did ask!

I would almost certainly have positioned the mic's differently, and/or used other mic's and/or recorded in a different acoustic.
No need to apologize, I appreciate the more detailed critique. Unfortunately the choir director/conductor did not give me many options for mic placement since it was for a live recording and a bit of a tight space in a small sanctuary.

"I don't want it to look like a recording studio," he said.

I would have liked to have had the main pair back further (same goes for the two omni outriggers) from the ensemble for a less direct sound but it was not an option with the two pianos down in front. I did have to cut around 3-4,000 khz region by a few decibels as the violins were definitely sharp. Maybe I should have boosted a bit in the upper bass and lower midrange.

Not sure if it's the room itself emphasizing that range or just bad strings/violins or my close proximity to the ensemble. I did not have the luxury of choosing the venue or location of the recording.
Old 24th July 2017
  #1570
Gear Maniac
 
Vesta's Avatar
 

I think the metallic sound has nothing to do with mic positioning. This amateur orchestra does not have enough violas and violins, obviously, to have more body. The acoustic of this hall isn't good either.
Old 26th July 2017
  #1571
Here for the gear
Old 26th July 2017
  #1572
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 11a12 View Post
A few recordings from an old Norwegian stone church with Line Audio CM3 and OM1, and on to Zoom F8.
CM3 in NOS, OM1 in AB 49 cm.
No EQ.
Sounds good....did you maintain a consistent blend ratio between the 2 pairs of mics, or did it vary from one ensemble to the next ?

There's a 'thickness' to the sound of the larger ensembles which might have been due to the church, or perhaps the height and angling of the mics, and some EQ might help there ? A pair of ribbon mics would probably excel in that acoustic ! I especially like the capture of the solo violins
Old 26th July 2017
  #1573
Here for the gear
I did not change the blend, and I agree with you, not that "chaoes" with the soloes.
Old 26th July 2017
  #1574
Gear Nut
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11a12 View Post
A few recordings from an old Norwegian stone church with Line Audio CM3 and OM1, and on to Zoom F8.
CM3 in NOS, OM1 in AB 49 cm.
No EQ.

https://youtu.be/ba5CyCx_NFY
https://youtu.be/Gg9rkdVSbCw
https://youtu.be/1xmdTK2612o
https://youtu.be/_Dh9fkSJAYk
Jealous :-) Europe has an abundance of great old recording spaces. I just recorded a classical ensemble and vocalist(s) in one of our churches but with plasters walls that give ugly early reflections, it's hard to make anything sound good.
Old 1st August 2017
  #1575
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jpgerard's Avatar
MBHO Omni rig?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Moke View Post
Well, hopefully this one will be received well?!
Here is an acoustic orchestral recording with the CM3 pair in a near-coincidence stereo pattern. The mics are at the stage lip, centered. I flew them low for the videographer, and also, to lessen the direct impulse of the brass, and to be more in-line with the strings.
There are also other samples of the three recording that I did of this concert that highlight baffled omni stereo (baffle directly below CM3 pair, on-stage), and boundary layer stereo from the balcony.

https://archive.org/details/pso2017-....edit_2448flac
https://archive.org/details/pso2017-....edit_1644flac

a link to one of the event images that show the mic array, in relation to the orchestra:
https://ia801606.us.archive.org/15/i...c/DSCN3415.jpg
Old 1st August 2017
  #1576
Gear Nut
 
Moke's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
MBHO Omni rig?
The stage-lip array is the CM3 pair (higher pair in the linked image), and my old Sennheiser MKE2002 omnidirectional pair (below the CM3 pair), as a baffled omni pair (Senn BInaural head mics, without the head).
Typically, I would have had my DPA 4060 pair in place of the Senn pair in that position. But, I wanted to try a recording from the balcony to see how the room sounded. So my DPA pair were as Boundary Layer pair on the balcony face.

The Senn MKE2002 and CM3 pairing is not natural as the DPA4060/CM3 pairing. The 4060/CM3 pair have been proving to be a very nice blend.
Old 1st August 2017
  #1577
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jpgerard's Avatar
Ah, a Senn disc!

It's not the first time I hear that DPA's beat Senns in terms of "natural-ness".
Old 3rd August 2017
  #1578
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Ah, a Senn disc!

It's not the first time I hear that DPA's beat Senns in terms of "natural-ness".
That's been my experience as well... The only mics I "like" better than my 4061s are my Gefell M296s... at about 4x the price. That pair has satisfied my "omnis" need nicely for a decade. CM3s play well with either in arrays in choral work... and are small enough to work well in almost any deployment. For orchestra work, I move to MKH8040s for main pair or for the cardioid bits of the array, and use the CM3s for spots, if needed.

FWIW...

HB
Old 4th August 2017
  #1579
Gear Maniac
 

Hopefully not too much of a "side trip."

In your orchestra work, when you use your CM3's as spots, do you typically use stereo spots, or mono?

DG
Old 4th August 2017
  #1580
Gear Nut
Here are some recent recordings from a concert at the church (with a very limited budget) I record for. The first and second violin players were professionals along with the soloists.

The sanctuary has ugly early reflections so I mainly used the sound from the NOS pair of CM-3s that I had on the main ensemble. I used OM-1 outriggers, but being good omnis were capturing too much of the early reflections. I spotted the choir with a ORTF pair of Shure KSM141s. There was a third CM-3 that I used to spot the vocalists when needed. They vocalists were standing below the KSMs that were aimed more at the choir so the sound was a bit thin and nasal for the soloists below them. The CM-3 was aimed up at the soloists from below.

Used a D.A.V. BG-8 preamp feeding an Antelope Goliath.







Old 4th August 2017
  #1581
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by dgpretzel View Post
Hopefully not too much of a "side trip."

In your orchestra work, when you use your CM3's as spots, do you typically use stereo spots, or mono?

DG
So far, only singly.
Old 4th August 2017
  #1582
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by 11a12 View Post
A few recordings from an old Norwegian stone church with Line Audio CM3 and OM1, and on to Zoom F8.
CM3 in NOS, OM1 in AB 49 cm.
No EQ.
Great musicians
But I am not sure that the mix CM3 + OM1 works well here.
Because of the little church and all the short reflections, the sound is not very precise and i found that mixing mics that are about 15 cm distant introduces phase problems resulting in less clarity of the highs.

Please could you post the Kvintett with only the CM3's ?
Thanks
Old 18th August 2017
  #1583
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Lorenzop's Avatar
 

And several years on the inevitable question remains, is the CM3 really that good?

The market has moved on ... right now, for example, should it fear the onslaught of say the iSK Audio Little Gem for example?

Has anyone been able to compare?

Or is the CM3 now eentering "classic mic" territory as in -the market moves on but will not forget it!?

Well I know I'm reasonably happy with mine
Old 18th August 2017
  #1584
Gear Maniac
 
benoïde's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lorenzop View Post
And several years on the inevitable question remains, is the CM3 really that good?

The market has moved on ... right now, for example, should it fear the onslaught of say the iSK Audio Little Gem for example?

Has anyone been able to compare?

Or is the CM3 now eentering "classic mic" territory as in -the market moves on but will not forget it!?

Well I know I'm reasonably happy with mine
Well, to me it fills a gap in that it's not a very good microphone per se (I work daily with Neumanns, DPA and Schoeps mics to record classical music), but it always delivers a usable result. At 250€ a pair, that's quite a feat in my book. Would I use it on classical music for my day job? Hell no, but that's because we've got other choices that are consistently great, but much more expensive...
On my other activities, the CM3 has proven itself useful in any situation I've put it in : field recordings, sound effects, guitars of various sorts, drums, even voice...
Old 20th August 2017
  #1586
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The_hog View Post
I enjoyed it!

Swedish "perfectionism" is a powerful force. I feel this shows up in the CM-3 and OM-1 microphones.

I agree that the market has moved on in certain areas (converters) but microphones are either good or not good. They do not get better with time and normally last longer than 3 years. I could be mistaken though.
Old 20th August 2017
  #1587
Gear Addict
 
fred2bern's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by benoïde View Post
Well, to me it fills a gap in that it's not a very good microphone per se (I work daily with Neumanns, DPA and Schoeps mics to record classical music), but it always delivers a usable result. At 250€ a pair, that's quite a feat in my book. Would I use it on classical music for my day job? Hell no, but that's because we've got other choices that are consistently great, but much more expensive...
On my other activities, the CM3 has proven itself useful in any situation I've put it in : field recordings, sound effects, guitars of various sorts, drums, even voice...
I also work in the classical music world and have no problem to use the CM-3 to spot some few instruments (woodwinds most of time) even if I use "big names" as main microphones.
Old 20th August 2017
  #1588
Gear Maniac
 
benoïde's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by fred2bern View Post
I also work in the classical music world and have no problem to use the CM-3 to spot some few instruments (woodwinds most of time) even if I use "big names" as main microphones.
Sure enough! I wouldn't have too, it's just that we have at our disposal around 30 DPAs (4006, 4011, 4006ES, 4060, 4023, 4033...), 15 Schoeps (MK22, MK4, MK2, MK8) and 30 Neumanns (KM140, 184A, 184, 131, TLM 193, U87...). So we are really spoilt for choices and given any situation I can always find something better (to my liking) than my CM3. They have a very good tone, but it's only when compared to those other microphones that I find them not detailed enough. They hold their own otherwise. (I have to add I work for a public broadcast company, so they have the budget to buy all those microphones).
I bet you get good results with those CM3 though!
Old 21st August 2017
  #1589
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jpgerard's Avatar
from years of customers reports and personal experience... DPA/Schoeps can be considered a step up in that they have lower noise than the Line Audios. But compare a Schoeps MK21 and a CM3... you won't be floored by the difference in terms of tone, dynamics and overall quality. Again, noise floor, yes, a bit to the advantage of the Schoeps and it can be a requirement in some situations. DPA's are pretty much above all, and their price is justified. However I cannot agree that a KM184 or, gasp, U87, would be more desirable on any given source than a CM3... especially on classical recordings... at least if you want a honest recording. If you need that U87 whatever-you-want-to-call-it or the artificial treble emphasis and tapered low end of the 184, great - but you need to stick with the modular KM range from Neumann to get a linearity comparable to Schoeps or Line Audio. The CM3 and OM1's are designed to be flat, not flattering - so yeah, they might lose in an audio beauty contest but when it comes to honesty and linearity, they will easily match the big guys. What they don't have is the treble emphasis, which many tend to mix with "detail" or "resolution". A treble boost makes it easier to hear HF detail, but it doesn't magically enhances the "resolution" of the mic. Whether you HF emphasize or not is a choice, it's up to the designer, and up to the user to pick the right mic for the right job. So, DPA wins time after time for being linear and pleasing. Slight treble thing going on but not overdone. Beautiful work from the designers. B&K/DPA mics were and are the first choice for classical for good reasons At the end of the day it's just choices, and the CM3 or OM1 can not only be used with great results on the right source, just like any other mic, they can offer the layman without unlimited budget access to performance otherwise unattainable. Don't underestimate them based on their price. First we all know by now they're under-priced a bit (!). Second, even if they weren't, it's obvious that when used properly, they will serve their purpose admirably. I, and others, have been fooled in various listening tests...
Old 23rd August 2017
  #1590
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