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CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 2nd February 2016
  #1291
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mats H View Post
Nah I use these without a boom: K&M 260/8 | Deluxe Music

They go up to 3 meters. Generally available in Sweden, but probably not elsewhere.
Well next time my mom goes to Sweden I'll have her bring back a pair!
Old 12th March 2016
  #1292
Here for the gear
Corelli

Got the chance to record an amateur string orchestra. Cm3s in center spaced 21.5cm, 110 degrees. OM1s around 65cm 90 degrees.

Pardon the HVAC noise, the venue could not turn it down.

Final mix had both outer and inner pairs at unity.
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-12800257_1223857527643442_2021504108226926217_n.jpg  
Attached Files

2 Corelli extract.mp3 (5.42 MB, 3380 views)

Old 12th March 2016
  #1293
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasahiro View Post
Got the chance to record an amateur string orchestra. Cm3s in center spaced 21.5cm, 110 degrees. OM1s around 65cm 90 degrees.

Pardon the HVAC noise, the venue could not turn it down.

Final mix had both outer and inner pairs at unity.
It sounds a little thin and lacks 'body and warmth' which could be down to the players' inexperience, a reflective room and perhaps the mics were a little too high ? The usual guidance to those using 2 pairs on a single bar as you have here is to allow one pair or the other to predominate by 6-9dB....have you tried doing this ?

Last weekend I faced a RF noise problem using a similar mic array (MKH8020 omni pair 67cms, CM3 pair 47cms) and I'll post a sample below. Only a few minutes before showtime the noise appeared, whereas it had been silent during soundcheck (isn't it often this way !)

I was using Mogami star quad multicore, but the mics had much thinner remote-type cables connecting them to the multi....so this would have been the weakest link. My guess is that the house lights were dimmed just before the musicians came out on stage, and this could be the cause ?

The small segment here is actually from the MKH8020 pair (which I used for the recording as these mics were much less affected by the noise than the CM3's which were on the same bar)....to such an extent that the CM3 pair was unusable in the mix at all.

Fortunately the majority of the recording was unaffected, only the quietest parts, but I need to sort it out before I record there again. The buzz seems to have been at a constant level throughout...has anyone had experience with this sufficient to be able to point the finger at RF dimmers....or something else ?

Signal chain was mics>remote cables>multicore>DAV BG8> Zoom R16 and for the record I've never experienced this before, despite using the rig in a multitude of venues.
Attached Files

noise sample.mp3 (355.5 KB, 2780 views)

Old 12th March 2016
  #1294
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Last weekend I faced a RF noise problem using a similar mic array (MKH8020 omni pair 67cms, CM3 pair 47cms) and I'll post a sample below. Only a few minutes before showtime the noise appeared, whereas it had been silent during soundcheck (isn't it often this way !)

I was using Mogami star quad multicore, but the mics had much thinner remote-type cables connecting them to the multi....so this would have been the weakest link. My guess is that the house lights were dimmed just before the musicians came out on stage, and this could be the cause ?

The small segment here is actually from the MKH8020 pair (which I used for the recording as these mics were much less affected by the noise than the CM3's which were on the same bar)....to such an extent that the CM3 pair was unusable in the mix at all.

Fortunately the majority of the recording was unaffected, only the quietest parts, but I need to sort it out before I record there again. The buzz seems to have been at a constant level throughout...has anyone had experience with this sufficient to be able to point the finger at RF dimmers....or something else ?

Signal chain was mics>remote cables>multicore>DAV BG8> Zoom R16 and for the record I've never experienced this before, despite using the rig in a multitude of venues.
Was it dimmer noise (buzzing packs audible in the hall) or RF/EMI noise, picked up only through the mics/cables? Since going to a UPS powering the Furman AR1215 powering the record rack and computer, I've had fewer problems with electrical hash than in the past, it seems. Mostly now I just get Mexican Radio (a downtown AM station transmitter/antenna is within about 10 blocks of the church in which I record regularly) and then, only at high gain through ribbons on long cable runs to the 100' snake. Using RODE D-Power Plugs (they're like Cloudlifter and FETHead) at the microphones was the solution to that.

One other source of noise in "multi-use" rooms is fan noise from the inexpensive LED lighting instrument arrays that everybody seems to be in love with these days. (Don't get me started on the ever-more elusive "non-standard" white-balance points for stills and video...)

If it was actual dimmer noise... there's nothing (other than redoing the lighting rig) to be done except to move the mics closer to the sources, which, of course, increases the signal level in the ratio, but does nothing about the ambient noise.

HB
Old 13th March 2016
  #1295
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
Was it dimmer noise (buzzing packs audible in the hall) or RF/EMI noise, picked up only through the mics/cables? Since going to a UPS powering the Furman AR1215 powering the record rack and computer, I've had fewer problems with electrical hash than in the past, it seems. Mostly now I just get Mexican Radio (a downtown AM station transmitter/antenna is within about 10 blocks of the church in which I record regularly) and then, only at high gain through ribbons on long cable runs to the 100' snake. Using RODE D-Power Plugs (they're like Cloudlifter and FETHead) at the microphones was the solution to that.

One other source of noise in "multi-use" rooms is fan noise from the inexpensive LED lighting instrument arrays that everybody seems to be in love with these days. (Don't get me started on the ever-more elusive "non-standard" white-balance points for stills and video...)

If it was actual dimmer noise... there's nothing (other than redoing the lighting rig) to be done except to move the mics closer to the sources, which, of course, increases the signal level in the ratio, but does nothing about the ambient noise.

HB
Thanks Harry for your list of possible causes. There was was no dimmer noise buzzing audible in the hall, but since I was there last it's definitely become a 'multi-use room' with a digital Allen & Heath desk plus LED lighting fader desk now in service.

My recording/monitoring room was at the other side of the building from the audio/lighting desks, but it's possible that either something was being induced into the mains power or else the mics/thin cables were picking RF/EMI. In that situation, would even star-quad cabling be no guarantee of being immune ?

Whatever the reason I'll be checking it all out well before I record there again !
Old 13th March 2016
  #1296
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
It sounds a little thin and lacks 'body and warmth' which could be down to the players' inexperience, a reflective room and perhaps the mics were a little too high ? The usual guidance to those using 2 pairs on a single bar as you have here is to allow one pair or the other to predominate by 6-9dB....have you tried doing this ?
Thanks for the advice! Went ahead and let the CM3s dominate for a later piece, along with getting rid of unnecessary eq which might have made it sound too thin, though it still sounds a tad bit 'cold'.

On the subject of noise, has anyone encountered high frequency noise before (close to 19kHz). Its essentially inaudible but I was wondering if it would affect the final mix. (See Spectrogram)
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-capture.jpg  
Attached Files

5 M symphony extract.mp3 (5.87 MB, 2949 views)

Old 13th March 2016
  #1297
Gear Addict
 

I'm not adding much to the discussion I am afraid, but I do like this second clip a lot better than the first. As for the high frequency noise, my guess is that it is probably something electronic. Off the top of my head I would say something generated from within a computer maybe?

Regards, Christine
Old 13th March 2016
  #1298
Here for the gear
Hi all,

in the interests of objective comparison, here are two more tracks of the Corelli. (The Mendelssohn was played with a larger number of players) File names are self explanatory and the total dB difference between the pairs is 8dB.

I personally prefer the CM3s louder overall, but certain segments of the OM1 dominant sound quite good also.
Attached Files

CM3 Dominates.mp3 (5.42 MB, 3009 views)

OM1 Dominates.mp3 (5.42 MB, 2958 views)

Old 13th March 2016
  #1299
If the noise is constant (more or less), then iZotope denoiser will remove it without much loss in fidelity, you should try it, it saved me few times when dimmers were too close or AC was too loud.
Old 13th March 2016
  #1300
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasahiro View Post
Thanks for the advice! Went ahead and let the CM3s dominate for a later piece, along with getting rid of unnecessary eq which might have made it sound too thin, though it still sounds a tad bit 'cold'.

On the subject of noise, has anyone encountered high frequency noise before (close to 19kHz). Its essentially inaudible but I was wondering if it would affect the final mix. (See Spectrogram)
This one (minus eq) sounds vastly better to my ears....what eq settings were you using, as they seemed to bring out edginess and raspiness in the instruments and room which simply aren't there in this sample !

I'm guessing the '2 more Corelli' tracks posted above here have that same eq engaged, because they both sound equally scratchy. Maybe my previous comments were incorrect: the room and players and instruments are fine...and the eq was at fault

I think the sample of this pair with OM1 dominant is slightly better, as it gives a little more of the room and less of the 'edge' of the strings...but overall the earlier "CM3 dominant/no eq" version is vastly better !
Old 13th March 2016
  #1301
Here for the gear
Studer, actually the two new Corelli tracks don't have any eq either. I guess the room just doesn't agree with this particular piece. So your initial assessment was accurate.
Old 13th March 2016
  #1302
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasahiro View Post
Studer, actually the two new Corelli tracks don't have any eq either. I guess the room just doesn't agree with this particular piece. So your initial assessment was accurate.
Well I think I have tied myself in knots...lol ! Maybe just experiment with height first...try higher and see if the string tone gels a bit better, and then experiment with the blending of pairs. Leave the EQ out because it's a variable not needed at this stage.

Write yourself notes as you record and note the height variations (2-3 minutes at each height increment should be sufficient) ...and if you're able to also pull the stand out further into the audience area, and again make notes.

Ultimately it may simply be an unsupportive room (is it a cube shape ?) but you could try a few more variations of mic placement anyway...
Old 13th March 2016
  #1303
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Last weekend I faced a RF noise problem using a similar mic array (MKH8020 omni pair 67cms, CM3 pair 47cms) and I'll post a sample below. Only a few minutes before showtime the noise appeared, whereas it had been silent during soundcheck (isn't it often this way !)

I was using Mogami star quad multicore, but the mics had much thinner remote-type cables connecting them to the multi....so this would have been the weakest link.
Umm.... probably not. Probably your weakest link is power cables. They make great antennas for RFI noise. First thing to try is battery operation.

The thing about balanced XLR cables is that they were designed to handle RFI, and they've been in use for 50+ years. Incremental improvements have been made, like the Neutrik EMC connectors and star quad cables, to the point that your cables are likely to be your strongest link.
Old 14th March 2016
  #1304
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jpgerard's Avatar
Today's Cell phone network coverage is a problem for audio recording. Damn signals get in everywhere. CE regulations should change but the Cell operators will always get what they want, they have money to spend... Adding to our problem recording on site, or pretty much anywhere in fact, is that digital recorders of pretty much any time lack proper shielding and filtering of said interference. When you take into account the analog part of the system often based on mic cables with XLR plugs that aren't grounded (everyone should check continuity between the XLR shell and Pin 1 before buying a type of mic cable) and we end up with all kinds of unwanted signals being captured. Microphone manufacturers often comply with CE regulations but those regulations aren't up to date - there's a LOT of rogue signals floating around. Power supplies have been mentioned and it's true that modern, cheap, switching PSU's aren't well shielded either. Basically, location recording has become a real challenges in some rooms.
Old 31st March 2016
  #1305
Here for the gear
Hi all, the videos are finally up today. If one can hazard somewhat amateurish playing, please have a listen.



All pieces, with the exception of the last piece, Skyrim, were solely captured with OM1s and CM3s.

No EQ was utilized.
Old 31st March 2016
  #1306
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasahiro View Post
All pieces, with the exception of the last piece, Skyrim, were solely captured with OM1s and CM3s.

No EQ was utilized.
Kudos! Thank you so much for sharing. I know the performers will be so grateful for this.
Old 4th April 2016
  #1307
Lives for gear
Central pair of CM3 NOS supported with outrigger pair of OM1, 12 feet to left and right of main pair....Brahms Tragic Overture, Op81...all mics around 9 feet above stage floor, no other mics used.
Attached Files

Brahms Tragic Overture.mp3 (18.82 MB, 2115 views)

Old 4th April 2016
  #1308
Studer58 - Very nice! How far in front of ensemble did you place the mics/stands and what was the mix ratio from main to outriggers? Thanks!
Old 5th April 2016
  #1309
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by tvlenthe View Post
Studer58 - Very nice! How far in front of ensemble did you place the mics/stands and what was the mix ratio from main to outriggers? Thanks!
The main and outrigger stands were in the same plane, and probably only 12-18" back from the guard rail of the conductor podium/stage edge, which is a typically recommended location for a main pair. For the Brahms Overture outriggers were around 3dB down from main pair, although that varies with the size of the ensemble and the dynamics of particular pieces played.

Last edited by studer58; 5th April 2016 at 07:18 AM.. Reason: more info added
Old 5th April 2016
  #1310
Lives for gear
Here's a picture of centre/ left side of stage......
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-brahms-miking.jpg  
Old 5th April 2016
  #1311
Gear Maniac
 
Dr. Jule's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Central pair of CM3 NOS supported with outrigger pair of OM1, 12 feet to left and right of main pair....Brahms Tragic Overture, Op81...all mics around 9 feet above stage floor, no other mics used.
Great Studer, thank you for that clip! I was waiting for this kind of sample for years. Good work! Not bad for 500€ of mics I think. It pretty much matches with my own experiences. It clearly shows what these mics can do - and what not. But not bad at all!
Old 5th April 2016
  #1312
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Central pair of CM3 NOS supported with outrigger pair of OM1, 12 feet to left and right of main pair....Brahms Tragic Overture, Op81...all mics around 9 feet above stage floor, no other mics used.
Very nice recording. Thank you for sharing. There is a special place in my heart for young musicians too. Can you describe the venue a bit? It doesn't sound particularly lively to me.
Old 5th April 2016
  #1313
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
Very nice recording. Thank you for sharing. There is a special place in my heart for young musicians too. Can you describe the venue a bit? It doesn't sound particularly lively to me.
Here is a nice image gallery and a few facts about the hall: https://music.adelaide.edu.au/concerts/venue/

Despite the beautiful arched timber ceiling for the majority of the hall, over the stage there's a flat and lower false ceiling which stops the sound (for the musicians) from disappearing into the heavens...which is a good thing....and for recordists makes it a bit less lively. Often an omni main pair gives just the right amount of ambience, but on this occasion the CM3's subtract a little of that, so I've added a bit of Bricasti to restore it somewhat.

A little more of its current woes are outlined here: https://www.adelaide.edu.au/lumen/is...news54344.html

and if you have Facebook you can see many more concert pics from the venue: https://www.facebook.com/ElderHall
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-elder-hall.jpg   CM3 - really THAT good?-elder-hall-2.jpg  
Old 5th April 2016
  #1314
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The main and outrigger stands were in the same plane, and probably only 12-18" back from the guard rail of the conductor podium/stage edge, which is a typically recommended location for a main pair. For the Brahms Overture outriggers were around 3dB down from main pair, although that varies with the size of the ensemble and the dynamics of particular pieces played.
Thanks for the details! Despite the quibbles about the false ceiling, at least the performers in Elder Hall are in the same acoustic space as the audience. I'm usually battling secondary school auditoriums where the stage is used both for musical and theatrical productions. Sadly, these stages typically have wings and height to allow flying scenery and bars of colored flood lights, all of which is separated by a proscenium wall which traps much of the sound on the stage side of the wall. Worse, there are often no baffles to redirect upwards sound into the seating area instead of the rafters 10m+ over the isolated stage. I suppose for a recording only session, a group could be moved into the largish "orchestra pit" open area between the public seats and the stage edge, but for performance recording, I'm basically stuck. I plan to use the same CM3 main and OM1 outrigger setup for my next attempt, which will be my first use of outriggers in this type of venue. Your fine results give me some hope despite the less then ideal room acoustic. Thanks again!
Old 6th April 2016
  #1315
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The main and outrigger stands were in the same plane, and probably only 12-18" back from the guard rail of the conductor podium/stage edge, which is a typically recommended location for a main pair. For the Brahms Overture outriggers were around 3dB down from main pair, although that varies with the size of the ensemble and the dynamics of particular pieces played.
This is a very nice recording. What, if anything, did you do besides level and pan in post?
Old 6th April 2016
  #1316
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
This is a very nice recording. What, if anything, did you do besides level and pan in post?
Pans are all 100% left/right. Apart from a smidge of Bricasti plugin to restore a bit of ambience to the main pair (only) and an overall HPF across all mics at 26 Hz to take out traffic rumble, I just brought it up to -18dB LUFS in Wavelab.... and that's it

Last edited by studer58; 6th April 2016 at 02:51 AM.. Reason: detail addition
Old 9th April 2016
  #1317
Lives for gear
Mozart 'Gran Partita' Serenade no.10 for winds in B flat major, movement 5 (Romance-Adagio)....13 wind players (incl a string bass) recorded today in a small inner city Baptist church, some traffic outside. CM3 pair, NOS, about 9 feet high.
Photo is from an earlier rehearsal, in a different church
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-wind-orchestra-rehearsing.jpg  
Attached Files
Old 22nd April 2016
  #1318
Gear Head
 

What's the easiest/best way to order a pair of these in the U.S.? Also what is the wait time currently?
Old 22nd April 2016
  #1319
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by unklejman View Post
What's the easiest/best way to order a pair of these in the U.S.? Also what is the wait time currently?
Buy them from NoHype in Belgium. You get them by air. He has the best connection for mics and relieves the maker of retail headaches, which is how the maker likes it. JP is a good dude and everyone on the board has had good experiences with him.

JP can tell you the wait time or perhaps even a visit to his web page will list it. There is no quicker way than JP, or better way.
Old 22nd April 2016
  #1320
Gear Nut
It seems like both the CM3 and OM1 are out of stock on NoHypeAudio.com :-(
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