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CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 21st October 2015
  #1261
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As a sidenote Shapeways now have quite a number of CM3-specific spacer bars, including Faulkner Phased array and wide ORTF:

Custom Microphone Clips by SRSRecordingServices - Shapeways Shops

Custom Microphone Clips by SRSRecordingServices - Shapeways Shops

PAM - CM3/OM1 (YFY3ZWJQW) by SRSRecordingServices

I'm curious about the dimensions of the Phased array bar though, as I had always thought Tony Faulkner mentioned the inner pair as being 10 cms inside the outer pair (66.7cms) ...although those figures were probably applicable to the Schoeps wide cardioid or Rode NT5 capsules, rather than the CM3/OM1 combination on sale here ?

However the same dimensions are used for the Schoeps remote cable specific design also: PAM CMC62H/CMC621 w/KC Active Cables (8VS8TGT88) by SRSRecordingServices

so perhaps this might be considered an evolutionary advancement over Tony's original spec ?
Old 21st October 2015
  #1262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mats H View Post

Thanks! The choir mic inputs were set to 32 dB of gain. I avoid reaching 0 dBFS like the plague. With the Octamic XTC and Fireface preamps you don't have to crank the inputs gains, as they feed the A/D converter chip directly.
Hi Mats-with 32 dB of gain, what did that correspond to peak dBFS at the converter? 'Trying to get a feel for how much gain is needed in real life scenarios. (I usually record peaking at c. -20 to -12 dBFS.)

I haven't heard of anyone having RF difficulties with the mic's, have you?

And finally, in your pictures you have mic stands with a solid base (not tripod) yet with heights of several meters. What are those?

Thanks for being a fount of information!
Old 22nd October 2015
  #1263
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i didn't get any replies to my Qs in another CM3 thread comapring CM3 to MK21 so i'm re-posting here...

i heard a clear difference in the two examples and I much preferred the first (MK21). it was rounder, more present and warmer. by comparison i found the CM3 thin and distant

will proximity help the CM3 that much more? it seems to me using optimal distance for each mic would make a better comparison as all mics differ in that regard. IOW, place each mic to get the best from the given source then compare (instead of equal placement)

i was originally thinking SM81 (which i've used, so i know how good it is), but read about the comparative value of the CM3

any audio comparisons with the SM81?

(not ready to spend the $$$ for the MK21)
Old 22nd October 2015
  #1264
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matti View Post
I feel CM3 likes to be positioned little closer to the source than most subcarioids but is of good quality

Matti
interesting
Old 22nd October 2015
  #1265
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Mats H's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JEGG View Post
Hi Mats-with 32 dB of gain, what did that correspond to peak dBFS at the converter? 'Trying to get a feel for how much gain is needed in real life scenarios. (I usually record peaking at c. -20 to -12 dBFS.)

I haven't heard of anyone having RF difficulties with the mic's, have you?

And finally, in your pictures you have mic stands with a solid base (not tripod) yet with heights of several meters. What are those?

Thanks for being a fount of information!
thx.

I also strive to get peaks around -6 to -20 dBFS. The loudest vocal peak was around -12 dBFS and when in the end when the drummer really was bashing the kit, the loudest peak was -3 dBFS. Use decent equipment and don't worry about gain or noise if you're not distance mixing finger picked guitar.

No RF problems so far but I don't use them much and Stockholm isn't really an RF heavy place in my experience (unless you're using radio mics in the center of sthlm... damn).

The stands are K&M 260/8 and go up to 328 cm. They weigh 6 kg each and are mandatory for choir recordings in my world Remove the bases and put them in a separate bag. Put the tall pieces in another with the rest of your stands.

Last edited by Mats H; 23rd October 2015 at 06:49 AM.. Reason: Typo
Old 22nd October 2015
  #1266
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Mats-

'Just a word of appreciation for all of the information you've shared (and the time to put it together) from the recording. The details, particularly those regarding gain staging and sensitivities of respective mic's, are extremely useful for me, and I suspect many others as well.

Thanks!
Old 22nd October 2015
  #1267
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Mats H's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by JEGG View Post
Mats-

'Just a word of appreciation for all of the information you've shared (and the time to put it together) from the recording. The details, particularly those regarding gain staging and sensitivities of respective mic's, are extremely useful for me, and I suspect many others as well.

Thanks!
Anytime. The CM3 is a bit less sensitive than other small diaphragm mics due to it's smaller capsule, but it does the job in most duties. It doesn't resolve as well as Microtech Gefell, Neumann or DPA, but perhaps just because of that it's a nice spot mic where you want a full range condenser mic (or a dozen. I own four CM3 and two CM2 mics).

Last edited by Mats H; 22nd October 2015 at 07:27 PM..
Old 22nd October 2015
  #1268
Gear Head
 

Hi Mats

I have done a thorough search of the K&M stands you describe.
Record a lot of choirs myself, and need these badly.
But 168/8 does not give me a hit in Google or in K&M webpages.

Best
Arni
Old 23rd October 2015
  #1269
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Mats H's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by The_hog View Post
Hi Mats

I have done a thorough search of the K&M stands you describe.
Record a lot of choirs myself, and need these badly.
But 168/8 does not give me a hit in Google or in K&M webpages.

Best
Arni
My bad, a typo.. I meant 260/8, sorry.
Old 23rd October 2015
  #1270
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jpgerard's Avatar
a small correction: "The CM3 is a bit less sensitive than other small diaphragm mics due to it's smaller capsule"

Not really, the reason is the electret capsule itself, not it's size. DC polarized capsules can have high sensitivity regardless of size. Electrets have a fixed charge and a comparatively low sensitivity (next to most modern DC polarized capsules). This is not a problem at all, since the noise floor of the head amp is below that of the capsule so having more output at the front end of the head amp wouldn't give any advantages, in fact it would reduce headroom. That said, if you take two identical construction capsules, the smaller one will have less V output of course as the diaph. area is smaller. Just FYI!
Old 23rd October 2015
  #1271
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Mats H's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
a small correction: "The CM3 is a bit less sensitive than other small diaphragm mics due to it's smaller capsule"

Not really, the reason is the electret capsule itself, not it's size. DC polarized capsules can have high sensitivity regardless of size. Electrets have a fixed charge and a comparatively low sensitivity (next to most modern DC polarized capsules). This is not a problem at all, since the noise floor of the head amp is below that of the capsule so having more output at the front end of the head amp wouldn't give any advantages, in fact it would reduce headroom. That said, if you take two identical construction capsules, the smaller one will have less V output of course as the diaph. area is smaller. Just FYI!
I stand corrected. The best forum is the one where you learn something everyday
Old 23rd October 2015
  #1272
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jpgerard's Avatar
I've learned a lot here and before I recall the old Rec.Audio.Pro group where I learned even more! Time flies...
Old 8th December 2015
  #1273
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Mats H's Avatar
Today the video is online.


pass: gskk

Btw I recorded Händel's Messiah last weekend, where the CM3 mics were used in X/Y to spot mic the soloists. Mostly to add reverb as they were well captured by the main pair of Neumann KM140 mics in ORTF. The alto needed some assist. Couldn't change placement of either the soloists or the choir.
Old 10th December 2015
  #1274
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Hannes_F's Avatar
 

@ Mats H: I love your work, great sound!
Old 13th December 2015
  #1275
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Mats H's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hannes_F View Post
@ Mats H: I love your work, great sound!
Thx!
Old 14th December 2015
  #1276
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mats H View Post
My bad, a typo.. I meant 260/8, sorry.
My searching on that gives a stand that tops out at 61 inches, or maybe 180 cm. Do you add a boom?
Old 14th December 2015
  #1277
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Mats H's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
My searching on that gives a stand that tops out at 61 inches, or maybe 180 cm. Do you add a boom?
Nah I use these without a boom: K&M 260/8 | Deluxe Music

They go up to 3 meters. Generally available in Sweden, but probably not elsewhere.
Old 24th December 2015
  #1278
here's a track I have just recorded with a pair of line audio cm3's https://soundcloud.com/bentyreman/wi...olstice-part-i

merry christmas!
Old 25th December 2015
  #1279
Here for the gear
A part of a recording with a pair of CM3 in NOS configuration. A little bass lift and normalised.
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-_mg_9361.jpg   CM3 - really THAT good?-_mg_9363.jpg   CM3 - really THAT good?-screen-shot-2015-12-25-22.59.35-.png  
Attached Files

Bach_vleugel.mp3 (5.96 MB, 3089 views)


Last edited by Sjoerd; 25th December 2015 at 11:02 PM..
Old 26th December 2015
  #1280
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jpgerard's Avatar
At first I wasn't sure about the need for that bass boost but I instantly got into the warmth of the track. Happy holidays!!!
Old 27th December 2015
  #1281
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Hannes_F's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by pencilextremist View Post
here's a track I have just recorded with a pair of line audio cm3's https://soundcloud.com/bentyreman/wi...olstice-part-i

merry christmas!
I like that. Merry Christmas!
Old 7th January 2016
  #1282
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjoerd View Post
A part of a recording with a pair of CM3 in NOS configuration. A little bass lift and normalised.
Nice ! But why the bass lift ? I hear that as unnatural.
What was the purpose of that lift ?
If it was because the treble was too present, you could have move the mics towards the piano point.

Or for piano you should just use OM1's
Old 7th January 2016
  #1283
Here for the gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
Nice ! But why the bass lift ? I hear that as unnatural.
What was the purpose of that lift ?
If it was because the treble was too present, you could have move the mics towards the piano point.

Or for piano you should just use OM1's
Thanks for your comment!
For my ears the bass lift was more pleasant

I am not a musician and certainly not someone who knows how a this piano should sound. The pianist told me that this Grotrian-Steinweg is not as 'full' as some other pianos.
Besides, it was a live concert so I didn't have much time to compare the real sound with what I recorded. And my omni mics where in use for the organ...

Attached the same piano recording without bass lift, only normalized.
Attached Files

Bach_piano_only_normalized.mp3 (5.95 MB, 2453 views)

Old 7th January 2016
  #1284
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Dr. Jule's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Listener View Post
I have a burning question...

Is it true, and how??
After 3 years of massive use of these mics I'm still trying to finally answer this question. Is the CM3 really THAT good?

I think it depends on what you think of THAT.

I've done an extensive shootout for typical studio applications, like close micing acoustic instruments. Mics used in the shootout: Schoeps CMC54, Neumann KM184, Beyerdynamic MC930 and Line Audio CM3.

Schoeps, Neumann, Beyerdynamic, Line Audio - for close micing acoustic instruments

You can share your thoughts in my thread or over here, if you want.
Old 8th January 2016
  #1285
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sjoerd View Post
Thanks for your comment!
For my ears the bass lift was more pleasant

I am not a musician and certainly not someone who knows how a this piano should sound. The pianist told me that this Grotrian-Steinweg is not as 'full' as some other pianos.
Besides, it was a live concert so I didn't have much time to compare the real sound with what I recorded. And my omni mics where in use for the organ...

Attached the same piano recording without bass lift, only normalized.
Yes I prefer this one.
More lightness and balance for this this great piece of Bach
Old 15th January 2016
  #1286
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jpgerard's Avatar
Please remember that the CM, like all Line Audio products, is not meant to add anything - so you won't get any extra sparkle. What goes in comes out, no "processing" here
Old 15th January 2016
  #1287
Here for the gear
Hi Guys,

I recently had an opportunity to use some Line Audio CM3's at a Brass Band event in the UK. With the CM3's fresh out of the box and untried, I put up some NT55's on a similar stereo bar for safety (Sub Cardioid against Cardioid I know!). They were in approx an ORTF configuration. No opportunity for a soundcheck so straight in to the event! Mics fed into an RME Octamic XTC and on to Pro Tools at 24bit / 44.1Khz

I was quite impressed with the full low end of the CM3 against the NT55 but felt there was a little top end sparkle missing. Anyway you can make your own mind up I guess!
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-img_3871.jpg  
Attached Files

Line Audio CM3.mp3 (5.27 MB, 2271 views)

Rode NT55.mp3 (5.27 MB, 2168 views)

Old 16th January 2016
  #1288
Gear Addict
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by noisyboy9 View Post
Hi Guys,

I recently had an opportunity to use some Line Audio CM3's at a Brass Band event in the UK. With the CM3's fresh out of the box and untried, I put up some NT55's on a similar stereo bar for safety (Sub Cardioid against Cardioid I know!). They were in approx an ORTF configuration. No opportunity for a soundcheck so straight in to the event! Mics fed into an RME Octamic XTC and on to Pro Tools at 24bit / 44.1Khz

I was quite impressed with the full low end of the CM3 against the NT55 but felt there was a little top end sparkle missing. Anyway you can make your own mind up I guess!
Listening to both samples I find the CM3's more comfortable to listen to. You are right that the NT55's have a little more top end sparkle, but at the same time I find that tiring to listen to after a while. Or perhaps it is the 4dB cut of the NT55 at the low end.

Regards, Christine
Old 16th January 2016
  #1289
Lives for gear
First your NT55 seem to be not very well matched so the stereo image is not good, then here th NT55 really lack the great basses of the CM3 and yes they are more directional and here it could be a good thing.
So here the comparison is really in favor of the CM3
Old 30th January 2016
  #1290
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mats H View Post
Today the video is online.


pass: gskk

Btw I recorded Händel's Messiah last weekend, where the CM3 mics were used in X/Y to spot mic the soloists. Mostly to add reverb as they were well captured by the main pair of Neumann KM140 mics in ORTF. The alto needed some assist. Couldn't change placement of either the soloists or the choir.
Wow, man, your works sound astonishing! Both sound-wise and the quality of musicians. Simply amazing.
Made me forget that I came here looking for CM3 comparisons..
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