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CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 16th September 2015
  #1231
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Bruce Watson's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
You be the judge...here is the overhead pair of CM3's alone.
Nice. Nice music, nicely played, and nicely captured. Good on ya!

Dixieland is nearly a lost genre these days. That's a shame. The world could use some of that whimsy. And your excellent recording lets it all come through.
Old 16th September 2015
  #1232
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Thank you Bruce, it is indeed the sort of music to shine a bit of sunlight into the heart !

There was a thread around here recently asking whether typical classical recording techniques could be used for jazz...I guess this piece answers in the kind-of affirmative, although I do find the overhead pair alone sound a bit too 'atmospheric' and reverberant, while teamed with a little bone-dry, close miked PA feed (my first sample, post #1223 ) the excesses of each approach is tamed....the whole being greater than the sum of its parts !!
Old 16th September 2015
  #1233
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
You be the judge...here is the overhead pair of CM3's alone.
You are right most come from the CM3
And, do you know, I prefer the CM3's alone
More natural and I love that.
And really a good point for the CM3 (and the hall and the musicians and... you).

And a question : why did you choose the CM3 instead of your usual Sennheiser MS pair ?
Old 17th September 2015
  #1234
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
And a question : why did you choose the CM3 instead of your usual Sennheiser MS pair ?
My only Sennheisers are MKH8020, and those omnis would have been way too cloudy for that music in that room...the ensemble stretched back from the edge of the stage for about 6 metres, with the drums at the very back, so it would have been a 'freight train in a tunnel' effect !

I forgot to mention that the original mixed track you hear (post#1223) also has a single drum spot mic (Line Audio OM1) located at the drummer's right kneecap, a la Steve Remoteness ! This single mic helped quite a bit with focus on the drums I think.
Old 17th September 2015
  #1235
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Great performance and great capture! I think you absolutely nailed the placement for this style of music.
Old 18th September 2015
  #1236
Great recording Studer58. I'd love to see a picture of the ensemble.
Old 19th September 2015
  #1237
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Quote:
Originally Posted by avillalta View Post
Great recording Studer58. I'd love to see a picture of the ensemble.
The CM3 pair is untidily attached to a bar overhead which usually holds the house main pair. I made a mistake earlier about the drummer's spot mic, that was used later on a 2nd kit, here hidden behind the screens....there was one present (you can see it in in front of the drummer's mouth) but it went into the PA mix only (very little if at all) Most of the players were close miked, as you can see, for PA purposes
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-murray-cod.jpg  
Old 20th September 2015
  #1238
I'm a noob at this and need a lil help from you CM-3 owners

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remo...c-guitars.html
Old 21st September 2015
  #1239
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scorpix74's Avatar
How does CM3 compare to a KSM141? Which is more than two time the price.
Old 21st September 2015
  #1240
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Here's a jazz recording I made a few nights ago, fairly large hall and the wind players plus piano and bass were amplified, but this is largely an overhead NOS pair of CM3's with a very little of the mixed (amplified) sound blended in for clarity. No added reverb. Hope you enjoy it !
Great nostalgic sound, well recorded. Good-oh!
Old 22nd September 2015
  #1241
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpix74 View Post
How does CM3 compare to a KSM141? Which is more than two time the price.
They are different. I use them for different occasions.
Old 22nd September 2015
  #1242
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DCtoDaylight's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpix74 View Post
How does CM3 compare to a KSM141? Which is more than two time the price.
I haven't used them in the same place at the same time, but my gut response is that, leaving aside questions of the pickup patterns, the 141 is more detailed and transparent-sounding. Also a good bit hotter signal.
Old 22nd September 2015
  #1243
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpix74 View Post
How does CM3 compare to a KSM141? Which is more than two time the price.
Agree with the prior posts... and would only add that with 141s you also get a very nice omni choice, along with the cardioid. If memory serves (I've experience only with KSM137s) the card pattern is significantly wider from the CM3... which is why I added a pair to my "usual" MKH8040, AT4041 and Sony C55FET cardioid pairs. Each has a place...

HB
Old 24th September 2015
  #1244
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
Great nostalgic sound, well recorded. Good-oh!
Thank you boojum...much appreciated. Here the same tune gets the 'expanded' treatment via a few photos on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAao...ampaign=buffer
Old 24th September 2015
  #1245
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Thank you boojum...much appreciated. Here the same tune gets the 'expanded' treatment via a few photos on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAao...ampaign=buffer
thanks for the link!
Old 28th September 2015
  #1246
CM3 on Voice Overs

If y'all ever wondered how the CM3 sounds on Voice Overs, check out my newest video. The CM3 was used a lil far way (about 2 ft away) at the beginning and end of the video, while the Mic introduction was recorded with the CM3 about 3 inches from my mouth with only the windshield and a pop filter between. They sound pretty good for this application too IMO:

Old 18th October 2015
  #1247
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Mats H's Avatar
Four CM3s used for the choir in this live recording I made the day before yesterday. Not my regular micing setup, with the mics very close to the choir, but it helped somewhat with isolation. The wider pickup was also a reason to use these over straight cardioids.

http://www.grandpaelectric.se/media/gskk/stella.mp3
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-screen.jpg  
Old 18th October 2015
  #1248
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jpgerard's Avatar
Nice balance IMHO. Sounds like you didn't mess with the dynamics of the performance, which is nice!
Old 18th October 2015
  #1249
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boojum's Avatar
Mats, your usual excellent work. Always well sung and well recorded. I am curious why you went with the successful four CM3's rather than a more usual ORTF or NOS? CM3's do well in NOS. What has that sly Swede up his sleeve?
Old 18th October 2015
  #1250
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Mats H's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
Mats, your usual excellent work. Always well sung and well recorded. I am curious why you went with the successful four CM3's rather than a more usual ORTF or NOS? CM3's do well in NOS. What has that sly Swede up his sleeve?
Thx!

I chose the technique because I had a close miced jazz band playing and needed some separation and control. A regular ORTF or NOS pair at a the proper distance would have picked up too much of the band. After the first tests, I moved the middle mics closer in so it more resembled an A-B setup than sectional spot mics. It improved the center image. In the mix, the outer mics were mixed 6 dB down, still needed to get sufficient articulation from the 2nd basses and lower altos in the a cappella songs. Didn't love the stereo image and the blend of the choir in this setup but found it to be a sufficient compromise.

In the mix I also added a -1 dB cut at roughly 5 KHz and a multiband (really a single band) compressor set to 900 KHz to make the sopranos less prominent in the loudest parts.

Btw the "main" Røde NT4 stereo mic seen in this pic was put there by a choir member, it was not mine.
Old 19th October 2015
  #1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mats H View Post
Thx!

I chose the technique because I had a close miced jazz band playing and needed some separation and control. A regular ORTF or NOS pair at a the proper distance would have picked up too much of the band. After the first tests, I moved the middle mics closer in so it more resembled an A-B setup than sectional spot mics. It improved the center image. In the mix, the outer mics were mixed 6 dB down, still needed to get sufficient articulation from the 2nd basses and lower altos in the a cappella songs. Didn't love the stereo image and the blend of the choir in this setup but found it to be a sufficient compromise.

In the mix I also added a -1 dB cut at roughly 5 KHz and a multiband (really a single band) compressor set to 900 KHz to make the sopranos less prominent in the loudest parts.

Btw the "main" Røde NT4 stereo mic seen in this pic was put there by a choir member, it was not mine.
Despite your stereo image concern, I think it is excellent work. And thanks for explaining your very practical approach.
Old 19th October 2015
  #1252
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jpgerard's Avatar
You set that comp just right, I simply couldn't hear it working. Well done.
Old 19th October 2015
  #1253
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mats H View Post
In the mix I also added a -1 dB cut at roughly 5 KHz and a multiband (really a single band) compressor set to 900 KHz to make the sopranos less prominent in the loudest parts.
900kHz ...900 Hz....9000 Hz ?
Old 19th October 2015
  #1254
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Mats H's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
900kHz ...900 Hz....9000 Hz ?
MHz obviously... The GSM calls were too loud. No 900 Hz.
Old 19th October 2015
  #1255
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boojum's Avatar
Mats, I read your reply the other day in my e-mail and am just now getting around to thanking you for your usual lucid analysis and solution. Thanks.
Old 19th October 2015
  #1256
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mats H View Post
After the first tests, I moved the middle mics closer in so it more resembled an A-B setup than sectional spot mics. It improved the center image. In the mix, the outer mics were mixed 6 dB down, still needed to get sufficient articulation from the 2nd basses and lower altos in the a cappella songs. Didn't love the stereo image and the blend of the choir in this setup but found it to be a sufficient compromise.

In the mix I also added a -1 dB cut at roughly 5 KHz and a multiband (really a single band) compressor set to 900 KHz to make the sopranos less prominent in the loudest parts.
Hi Mats- always like your recordings!

Question: How did you pan the four choir mic's?

Also, can't tell from the photo, but exactly how close were the mic's over/in front of the voices?

Did you consider hyperc's or 8's?

Thanks for your posts!

Edit: I forgot to ask you about the mic/preamp/mix chain-thankx

So many questions....

Last edited by JEGG; 20th October 2015 at 12:06 AM..
Old 20th October 2015
  #1257
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Mats H's Avatar
Thx guys!

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEGG View Post
Hi Mats- always like your recordings!

Question: How did you pan the four choir mic's?

Also, can't tell from the photo, but exactly how close were the mic's over/in front of the voices?

Did you consider hyperc's or 8's?

Thanks for your posts!

Edit: I forgot to ask you about the mic/preamp/mix chain-thankx

So many questions....
I wanted more blend than what a hyper or figure of 8 would give. The mics were about 1,5 to 2 metres from the singers' mouths as the stands reach 3,2 metres at top height and the bases were just in front of the raisers. The middle mics were panned 70% to the sides and the outer mics 100% but 5 dB down or so.

Kick: Røde NT2000, snare: Neumann KM140, OH Sennheiser MKH40/30 in M/s -> Fireface UFX.

Bass: Neumann KM140, Trumpet Sennheiser MKH406, Piano: Microtech Gefell M296 in A-B, Choir: Line Audio CM3 x4 -> Octamic XTC. All at 48 KHz.

12 mics in total. I was given two mics for speech on an extra channel from the house mixer.
Old 20th October 2015
  #1258
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Mats H,
You are a most fortunate man to have the opportunity to perform and capture the great choral work you have shared on these threads over the years. I am 74 years old and had a life changing vocal experience under Robert Shaw's baton many years ago: with that said your recording of this choral and jazz ensemble performance stands up with the best of them! Congratulations!!!
Old 20th October 2015
  #1259
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Mats-
One or two more questions-
How much gain was required for the CM3's to reach the level Full Scale (dBFS) that you chose, and what was that level?

I really liked everything about the choral sound.
Old 20th October 2015
  #1260
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Mats H's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
Mats H,
You are a most fortunate man to have the opportunity to perform and capture the great choral work you have shared on these threads over the years. I am 74 years old and had a life changing vocal experience under Robert Shaw's baton many years ago: with that said your recording of this choral and jazz ensemble performance stands up with the best of them! Congratulations!!!
Thank you so much, it means a lot to me!

I figure it was amazing, it's great when you get to meet your idols and work with them - and they exceed your expectations Being in the right spot at the right time is easier when one works in the quite productive capital. About a month ago when I recorded this choir they performed the music by and with Benny Andersson of ABBA. He has written a lot of the music I grew up with. A very nice guy. That was cool.

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEGG View Post
Mats-
One or two more questions-
How much gain was required for the CM3's to reach the level Full Scale (dBFS) that you chose, and what was that level?

I really liked everything about the choral sound.
Thanks! The choir mic inputs were set to 32 dB of gain. I avoid reaching 0 dBFS like the plague. With the Octamic XTC and Fireface preamps you don't have to crank the inputs gains, as they feed the A/D converter chip directly. The Kick and snare had 0 dB of gain. Bass 24 dB, trumpet 11 dB and piano 14 dB. There's a jump between 0 and 10 dB, otherwise I'd used 3-5 dB of gain on the kick/snare.
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