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CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 1st September 2015
  #1171
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
CM3 pair used in NOS configuration, 2 metres in front of singer, with musicians behind her. Mics 3 metres high. Also an OM1 omni spot used on harpsichord for a bit of definition. Recent concert performance, no attempt at ambient noise reduction, no artificial ambience
amazing! makes me want a pair of om1's now, great recording.
Old 1st September 2015
  #1172
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jpgerard's Avatar
Hi Studer58, if I may, what recorder did you use?
Old 1st September 2015
  #1173
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Zoom yes really ! cheap one too...24 bit/44.1
Old 1st September 2015
  #1174
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jpgerard's Avatar
And here I was thinking I might get terrible results with a Tascam! Thanks for the info. Portable recorders have come a long way for sure.
Old 1st September 2015
  #1175
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There's always a hierarchy at work of course, including microphone quality, placement of them, room/hall acoustics...then the rest of the signal chain comes into play.

Unless the mic preamps or recorder are really bad they are going to let the capture shine through ? Of course great components all through the chain really polish the window on the performance. Are there any truly bad recorders or preamps available these days ?
Old 1st September 2015
  #1176
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jpgerard's Avatar
There are a few I won't mention, but I admit that the quality of complete portable recording packages of today are impressive for the price. The higher end stuff will most likely last longer, have more headroom, less noise etc. but the cheaper stuff is quite gratifying already.
Old 1st September 2015
  #1177
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Earcatcher's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
CM3 pair used in NOS configuration, 2 metres in front of singer, with musicians behind her. Mics 3 metres high. Also an OM1 omni spot used on harpsichord for a bit of definition. Recent concert performance, no attempt at ambient noise reduction, no artificial ambience
Lovely live recording. Good use of the CM3 qualities.
Old 4th September 2015
  #1178
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
There are a few I won't mention, but I admit that the quality of complete portable recording packages of today are impressive for the price. The higher end stuff will most likely last longer, have more headroom, less noise etc. but the cheaper stuff is quite gratifying already.
Hey man, after scouring the forum for days i'm still unable to decide which pair of the Line Audio microphones i should get.

I currently have:
1 x Stellar CM-6 (tube multi pattern)
1 x At4040

1 x Audient iD22
1 x Audient Mico

So my question is:

1. How does the CM3 compare to the AT4040 as an acoustic guitar mic up close in XY? The reason why i ask this is, if the AT4040 is better at that position, i'll just pick up another AT4040 in the near future and get the OM1s now and use them as a Spaced pair for wider stereo while i use my CM-6 and AT4040 as a mid-side setup. My main argument of getting the OM1s is that since i already have 2 cardiod (albeit LDCs instead of SDCs), getting a pair of Omnis will flesh out my mic locker more.

2. How does the OM1 compare to AT4040 as a room mic? Again, if the AT4040 is better at this, i'll pick up another AT4040 in the near future and get the CM3s now. Also, how does the CM3s fair in spaced AB as a stereo room mic? Will using them in a distance be potentially problematic given they lack of sensitivity compared to the OM1s? My main argument to get the CM3s is because they might give me more treble response than my AT4040s and also if they work as good as the OM1s in a distance, i essentially get the best of 2 worlds with less room noise while i'm here.

Which pair would serve me better? I'm currently away from home in a small apartment that is not treated. Back at home, i have a Kawaii Grand Piano in a ballroom sized hall. I read in one of the threads that if i use mic stands to place blankets behind the OM1s, i can get a pretty close sound to the CM3s with the extended bass of the OM1s.

Please help me out. I'm looking to place an order in the next few days.

Old 4th September 2015
  #1179
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Hi, I unfortunately haven't AB'ed the 4040 and the Line Audio's. Also what I consider to be "better" could be radically different than what you do. You seem confused indeed, but probably because you're not asking yourself the right questions. Let's see if I can help:

Do you need an affordable Omni with a linear frequency response, void of colouration? The OM1 is a great option.
Do you need an affordable Wide Cardioid with a linear frequency response, almost void of colouration with the exception of the typical gentle LF roll off found in most cardioids? The CM3 will work just fine.

For room mic'ing an Omni usually beats Cardioids, since the goal is to get... most of the room sound, reflections, resonances and all. However in really big rooms, sub cardioids or cardioids can help focusing on parts of the room so that can be handy but you don't seem to have a very large room to play with. So an Omni as room mic wouldn't suck.

From the frequency plots, it's safe to say that the 4040 will have more top end colouration than the CM3. I know the CM3 quite well and I haven't found anything in its price range and a bit above with the same linearity. So if a very neutral cardioid (sub cardioid) is usefule to you look no further. But if you like the tone from your 4040... why not get a second one for stereo use? In the end it's all down to taste, choice, engineering and musical style.
Old 4th September 2015
  #1180
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Hi, I unfortunately haven't AB'ed the 4040 and the Line Audio's. Also what I consider to be "better" could be radically different than what you do. You seem confused indeed, but probably because you're not asking yourself the right questions. Let's see if I can help:

Do you need an affordable Omni with a linear frequency response, void of colouration? The OM1 is a great option.
Do you need an affordable Wide Cardioid with a linear frequency response, almost void of colouration with the exception of the typical gentle LF roll off found in most cardioids? The CM3 will work just fine.

For room mic'ing an Omni usually beats Cardioids, since the goal is to get... most of the room sound, reflections, resonances and all. However in really big rooms, sub cardioids or cardioids can help focusing on parts of the room so that can be handy but you don't seem to have a very large room to play with. So an Omni as room mic wouldn't suck.

From the frequency plots, it's safe to say that the 4040 will have more top end colouration than the CM3. I know the CM3 quite well and I haven't found anything in its price range and a bit above with the same linearity. So if a very neutral cardioid (sub cardioid) is usefule to you look no further. But if you like the tone from your 4040... why not get a second one for stereo use? In the end it's all down to taste, choice, engineering and musical style.
in terms of flexibility, which is the more versatile pair?
Old 5th September 2015
  #1181
anyone else care to weigh in?
Old 5th September 2015
  #1182
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CM3 recording Klaverinstrument

This recording was all done with a pair of CM3´s in an old barn turned music hall.
RME Babyface preamps, Pyramix recording software. A little eq and compression.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-pq0uRcL6U
Old 5th September 2015
  #1183
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jpgerard's Avatar
They're both equally flexible, whether you need Omnis or Cardioids is up to you. Cardioids allow you to reject most of the room and the CM3's being sub cardioid are a bit more relaxed than most cardioids. The CM3 is more popular than the OM1, if that helps.
Old 5th September 2015
  #1184
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Dr. Jule's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by shanetsh View Post
anyone else care to weigh in?
I have both and use CM3 more often. Piano, choir, strings, guitar, acoustic instruments, overheads. They just sound a little better to me.
Old 5th September 2015
  #1185
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Dr. Jule's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Hat View Post
This recording was all done with a pair of CM3´s in an old barn turned music hall.
RME Babyface preamps, Pyramix recording software. A little eq and compression.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-pq0uRcL6U
Everything recorded of axis? Or are just the pictures misleading?
Old 5th September 2015
  #1186
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Jule View Post
Everything recorded of axis? Or are just the pictures misleading?
The pictures are from the session, so they are probably not misleading.
Old 5th September 2015
  #1187
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
CM3 pair used in NOS configuration, 2 metres in front of singer, with musicians behind her. Mics 3 metres high. Also an OM1 omni spot used on harpsichord for a bit of definition. Recent concert performance, no attempt at ambient noise reduction, no artificial ambience
The recording is well engineered, well done.

However the effect of the mic on the soloists voice shows the limits of the resolution of the mic.
Old 5th September 2015
  #1188
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Agreed.... although the same effect applies to the rest of the ensemble as well, it's a very democratic and fair mic and treats all of its sources equally (an EU mic rather than an UN mic !)..and the limits of the resolution are just as likely to be in the Zoom recorder ?
Old 5th September 2015
  #1189
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Agreed.... although the same effect applies to the rest of the ensemble as well, it's a very democratic and fair mic and treats all of its sources equally (an EU mic rather than an UN mic !)..and the limits of the resolution are just as likely to be in the Zoom recorder ?
Just got around to listening to your recording, and it's very, very good. So is the soprano - she has the perfect, unfussy interpretation for this music. This is the same exact spacing and placement I like to use the CM3 for with choirs, and it's my go-to starting point.

I don't hear any lack of resolution as aracu mentions. Perhaps it's because we're so used to hearing commercial classical releases that have closer mic placement for vocal soloists? If you had done that here, you would have lost the beautiful hall ambiance you've captured.

In any case, I think it's pretty tough to judge the resolution of a mic or anything else in the chain for a live recording unless you were there in person, or unless something is causing a definitely audible problem.
Old 6th September 2015
  #1190
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Hat View Post
This recording was all done with a pair of CM3´s in an old barn turned music hall.
RME Babyface preamps, Pyramix recording software. A little eq and compression.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J-pq0uRcL6U
That Bechstein is a beautiful sounding piano. Very bright treble, but I've found that to be the case with Steinways of similar vintage. It could also just be the felt thinning / hardening on the hammers in that register, which is pretty common. What's the size? In the pictures it looks to be no more than 7-8ft, but it has the tonal qualities of a full size grand.
Old 6th September 2015
  #1191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voltronic View Post
I don't hear any lack of resolution as aracu mentions. Perhaps it's because we're so used to hearing commercial classical releases that have closer mic placement for vocal soloists? If you had done that here, you would have lost the beautiful hall ambiance you've captured.

In any case, I think it's pretty tough to judge the resolution of a mic or anything else in the chain for a live recording unless you were there in person, or unless something is causing a definitely audible problem.
What I mean is that if you concentrate your attention on the sound of the
soloist's voice, you can hear how it deviates consistently from the sound of
a real voice... not drastically, but noticably.
Old 6th September 2015
  #1192
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voltronic View Post
That Bechstein is a beautiful sounding piano. Very bright treble, but I've found that to be the case with Steinways of similar vintage. It could also just be the felt thinning / hardening on the hammers in that register, which is pretty common. What's the size? In the pictures it looks to be no more than 7-8ft, but it has the tonal qualities of a full size grand.
I think it´s around 210 cm.
Yes, I was going off axis to take away a bit of the 'bite' in the treble which is not only due to the piano itself, but the hard stone walls. The room is quite untreated... Same with the Harpsichord, where I would have liked a little more distance but the acoustics wouldn´t allow for it.
Old 6th September 2015
  #1193
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
What I mean is that if you concentrate your attention on the sound of the
soloist's voice, you can hear how it deviates consistently from the sound of
a real voice... not drastically, but noticably.
I've now re-listened very closely several times with both phones and monitors, and I am truly struggling to hear what you're talking about. Could you be more specific?

The only possible thing I could pick out is a somewhat soft attack of the consonants, but that could be explained by the distance and off-axis placement of each mic relative to the vocal position. Any other flaws I hear are performance-related and are quite minor.

We're also critically commenting on resolution of a 128k mp3 - perhaps studer58 would be willing to share a lossless version?
Old 6th September 2015
  #1194
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Hat View Post
I think it´s around 210 cm.
Yes, I was going off axis to take away a bit of the 'bite' in the treble which is not only due to the piano itself, but the hard stone walls. The room is quite untreated... Same with the Harpsichord, where I would have liked a little more distance but the acoustics wouldn´t allow for it.
Well, I enjoyed the results you achieved.

If indeed that's the size of the piano, that's almost exactly the length of a Steinway B (211cm). Your excerpts here are fairly convincing evidence that you don't always need a full-size grand - this instrument was more than up to the task for this music in that space.
Old 7th September 2015
  #1195
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voltronic View Post
We're also critically commenting on resolution of a 128k mp3 - perhaps studer58 would be willing to share a lossless version?
I've tried a few times to attach an 18.2MB lossless version here (GS claims to support 20MB max for filesize attachments) but on posting it doesn't show up
Old 7th September 2015
  #1196
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voltronic View Post
Well, I enjoyed the results you achieved.

If indeed that's the size of the piano, that's almost exactly the length of a Steinway B (211cm). Your excerpts here are fairly convincing evidence that you don't always need a full-size grand - this instrument was more than up to the task for this music in that space.
Indeed, I think this size is the best sounding, especially for chamber / solo work. Full sized grands are for cutting through full orchestras, it's a veritable weapon. To hard and cold for my taste.
Old 7th September 2015
  #1197
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elswhrco's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Hat View Post
Indeed, I think this size is the best sounding, especially for chamber / solo work. Full sized grands are for cutting through full orchestras, it's a veritable weapon. To hard and cold for my taste.
Except it's very hard to get a nice, tight, clean low bass out of anything but a D sized instrument. Nothing to do with volume, but rather scale length.

Besides which, a Steinway D can be played just as quietly as a B. To say "full sized grands are for cutting through full orchestras" is far too simplistic a view. I feel saying "a full size grand is too hard and cold" is too broad and sweeping a statement; the truth is that there are bright instruments and dark instruments in all sizes. And given a good tech, almost any instrument can be voiced as you please.

Last edited by elswhrco; 7th September 2015 at 01:44 PM..
Old 7th September 2015
  #1198
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elswhrco View Post
Except it's very hard to get a nice, tight, clean low bass out of anything but a D sized instrument. Nothing to do with volume, but rather scale length.

Besides which, a Steinway D can be played just as quietly as a B. To say "full sized grands are for cutting through full orchestras" is far too simplistic a view. I feel saying "a full size grand is too hard and cold" is too broad and sweeping a statement; the truth is that there are bright instruments and dark instruments in all sizes. And given a good tech, almost any instrument can be voiced as you please.
I hear you Sir, but I stand by my point. And I don't always put clarity and tightness first in, let's say, romantic or impressionistic solo piano. But, tight clear bass is the Bechstein trademark, having the bass strings fanned rather than in parallel, which is an advantage over the competition (in the bass, that is, I´m a Steinway man to the core...). I'd agree that a smaller (than 2.00 m) grand piano would be too unclear for professional use. I´ve had great results with Steinway A´s and B´s. I really love the roundness. I´ve had some trouble with D´s where the violinist had to fight the piano a lot (violin sonatas). Any pianist would go for the D because of the length of keys, the action, the dynamics, the tight clean bass. But I don´t think it´s always the best for the music.

Last edited by Green Hat; 7th September 2015 at 09:43 PM..
Old 7th September 2015
  #1199
hey guiys. i just joined the club and pulled the trigger on a pair of CM3s. I'm doing my masters in Aussie now but i have a Kawai grand piano at home and i'll try to record some samples with them when i get home
Old 7th September 2015
  #1200
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I've tried a few times to attach an 18.2MB lossless version here (GS claims to support 20MB max for filesize attachments) but on posting it doesn't show up
It's never worked for me either. Maybe you could use Dropbox, WeTransfer, etc.
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