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CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 7th November 2014
  #1021
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The hip ones would have....and would also have been hip enough to hide the fact, knowing that German mics have long had the cachet of 'approval status' by major labels. If you can get the same result as these esteemed veterans for 10% of the asking price...why, that would mean that "anyone" could do the same (shock and awe).

Methinks there could be a mods industry waiting to happen by sliding CM3 or OM1 bodies inside fake KM1xx or Schoeps outer shells ......
Old 7th November 2014
  #1022
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pkautzsch's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The hip ones would have....and would also have been hip enough to hide the fact, knowing that German mics have long had the cachet of 'approval status' by major labels. If you can get the same result as these esteemed veterans for 10% of the asking price...why, that would mean that "anyone" could do the same (shock and awe).
It's still the archer, not the arrows.
Though, apparently, only the good archers know this (and they can afford any arrow).
Old 7th November 2014
  #1023
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkautzsch View Post
It's still the archer, not the arrows.
Though, apparently, only the good archers know this (and they can afford any arrow).
Indeed, and if they already own the best arrows, why would they go downmarket with the 'cheapies', unless these have some qualities that the high-end devices don't have ?
Old 7th November 2014
  #1024
Quote:
Originally Posted by vasikgreif View Post
Just ordered two CM3's for grand piano recording. What is the recommended positioning of these mics? NOS, ORTF, something different? I'm going to use theses in studio setting, piano and singer (have an U87 for the singer), jazz, a really good piano... Thanks
I would not recommend CM3 for grand piano recording. It lacks bottom end.
The OM1 and the No hype audio LRM Ribbon mike are better.
Old 7th November 2014
  #1025
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pkautzsch's Avatar
 

With jazz, piano recording is even more "it depends" than with classical piano.
You can (need to?) shape the sound way more, sometimes that percussive "mic inside the piano" sound is desirable, sometimes more of a "classical" sound - and which one - warm tail end or sparkling stick side? A little "boxy" with lid reflexion? Maybe one pair isn't enough, maybe it is.
Good place to start with a single pair is in the curve, but make sure the lid doesn't mess with the sound you want.
Old 7th November 2014
  #1026
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monitor View Post
I would not recommend CM3 for grand piano recording. It lacks bottom end.
The OM1 and the No hype audio LRM Ribbon mike are better.
Bit too late - already have these ordered - but I might order OM1 for doing solo piano. I thought CM3 will be better to use when more instruments / or vocal are recorded together, due to the omni vs cardioid charcteristics. Is this right?

Quote:
With jazz, piano recording is even more "it depends" than with classical piano.
You can (need to?) shape the sound way more, sometimes that percussive "mic inside the piano" sound is desirable, sometimes more of a "classical" sound - and which one - warm tail end or sparkling stick side? A little "boxy" with lid reflexion? Maybe one pair isn't enough, maybe it is.
Good place to start with a single pair is in the curve, but make sure the lid doesn't mess with the sound you want.
I guess I'll just experiment - the piano is a great Steinway D, the room is incredible for solo piano (http://www.dumhudbyplzen.cz/galerie/...o-619g6980.jpg), but not that great for multiple instruments...
Old 7th November 2014
  #1027
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vasikgreif View Post
the piano is a great Steinway D, the room is incredible for solo piano (http://www.dumhudbyplzen.cz/galerie/...o-619g6980.jpg), but not that great for multiple instruments...
That's certainly not a Steinway D.
Old 7th November 2014
  #1028
Quote:
Originally Posted by vasikgreif View Post
I might order OM1 for doing solo piano.
Good idea. At 100EU/piece that 's hardly a problem. You mix in the cardios then, or some ribbons. With the OM1 you get that omni-like low freq response.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vasikgreif View Post
I thought CM3 will be better to use when more instruments / or vocal are recorded together, due to the omni vs cardioid charcteristics. Is this right?
the cardios can give a phase difference/intensity stereo,
whereas the omnis give time of arrival stereo.
check this:
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/SRAflash.swf
http://www.sengpielaudio.com/Visualization-XY90-E.htm


so mixing both techniques is a good idea. use 1 stereo bar to put the 4 mikes on. I combine the cardios in NOS, and the omnis in AB around it.
Other users (Empiria) put the omnis as close as possible to the cardios, so that they can balance between the two. in this way you can tweak the pattern of this mike between omni and cardio. CM3 OM1 and ribbons are also a good choice for spot mikes, if you need any.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vasikgreif View Post
I guess I'll just experiment - the piano is a great Steinway D, the room is incredible for solo piano (http://www.dumhudbyplzen.cz/galerie/...o-619g6980.jpg), but not that great for multiple instruments...
you can also consider hiring top quality mikes (Schoeps MK2S etc) for main pair, that costs 25-35 euro a pair a day, but in some instances sounds significantly better than OM1/CM3. However ,sometimes there's hardly a difference.
Old 7th November 2014
  #1029
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
That's certainly not a Steinway D.
Not in this photo, but in the venue yes.. :-P
Old 10th November 2014
  #1030
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by vasikgreif View Post
Not in this photo, but in the venue yes.. :-P
A D would be a bit overkill for a room that small. A B would be perfect. Is the one pictured a Boesendorfer?
Old 10th November 2014
  #1031
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voltronic View Post
A D would be a bit overkill for a room that small. A B would be perfect. Is the one pictured a Boesendorfer?
Yup, it's a Bosendorfer, aldo a great piano. But trust me, the Steinway sounds INCREDIBLE in this room, even more from players perpective (I'll be playing it ). Also, it's one of the best Steinways out there - I mean, there are concerts of peple who played hunderds of Steinways, and always comment that this piano is one of the best they ever played.
Old 10th November 2014
  #1032
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I was considering buying a pair of Oktava MK-012 ... but after hearing and reading so many positive comments about Line Audio CM3 I like more than Oktava MK-012.

The model OktavaMod MK-012 is a better buy than Line Audio CM3?
Old 11th November 2014
  #1033
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boojum's Avatar
The quality control at Line Audio is at a very high standard. That is why there are backlogs at times. The maker will not compromise quality for production volume. OTOH, Oktava has had some complaints about its quality. Oktavamod makes a living out of getting them to work right. I know of no one modifying the CM-3 to "make it better." There is a lesson right there. You may also note that there is no Oktava thread extolling their virtues. There has to be a reason for this.
Old 11th November 2014
  #1034
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Thanks for the reply,
at the same price Line Audio CM-3 win over Oktava MK-12 (No Mod) ...
You're right, in fact there is no one modifying the CM-3 to "make it better" ...
It would be helpful if someone could compare the two microphones (CM-3 and Okt. Mk-012 Mod) to figure out whether it is worth spending some extra money for Oktava MK-012 (MOD)
Old 11th November 2014
  #1035
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boojum's Avatar
I would not knock Michael Joly. He does good work. He is in some threads here about his mods. If he has been at it for 20+ years and feeding himself that way it is safe to assume he is pretty good. He modified a couple of NT1-A's for me. They are way better now.

Check this link for Oktava mods: Award-winning microphone engineering from Michael Joly

Here is the NoHypeAudio link for CM3's: Line Audio - Swedish Made High Quality Audio Products - Available at NoHype Audio

Just as Michael Joly is good to work with, so is NoHypeAudio. Straight ahead good guys. I have never heard a complaint about them.
Old 12th November 2014
  #1036
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thanks for the links!
For the price the Line Audio CM3 is a good buy!
I buy them so I can hear them on different sources such as Toms, Snare, el. guitar, etc...

I was also considering other various microphones and the NT1-A OktavaMod looks really good as the Hulk 990!
Old 12th November 2014
  #1037
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
I would not knock Michael Joly. He does good work.
Don't think anyone's disputing that, or knocking him. The comments were about Octava, not Octavamod.
Old 12th November 2014
  #1038
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bing81 View Post
Don't think anyone's disputing that, or knocking him. The comments were about Octava, not Octavamod.
The post directly above mine has references to Oktava (MOD) which I assumed to be a reference to Michael Joly. I meant the comment as a compliment when I made the post and I still do.
Old 14th November 2014
  #1039
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Hi Folks,

Longtime lurker here, first time poster.

I record almost exclusively fingerpicking guitar and had a pair of CM3's. Eventually ended up selling them to a friend, though now I am kind of regretting it. I liked the tone, I just felt I had to crank my pre amp to high to get a hot enough signal going in. I usually shoot for a peak of -7db or so. Getting that level with the CM3's meant introducing to much preamp noise. I am using a presonus firestudio mobile. Here is a clip if anyone is interested.

Line Audio CM3's https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...obbycaseys.wav

In comparison my ADK A6's seem much more sensitive, and i dont have to crank the gain on the pre as much.

ADK A6 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../anton_ADK.mp3

So maybe the CM3's are not the best choice for my relatively quiet guitar playing? Or maybe i need a preamp with more clean gain.

thanks

Anton
Old 14th November 2014
  #1040
Here for the gear
 

Hi Folks,

Longtime lurker here, first time poster.

I record almost exclusively fingerpicking guitar and had a pair of CM3's. Eventually ended up selling them to a friend, though now I am kind of regretting it. I liked the tone, I just felt I had to crank my pre amp to high to get a hot enough signal going in. I usually shoot for a peak of -7db or so. Getting that level with the CM3's meant introducing to much preamp noise. I am using a presonus firestudio mobile. Here is a clip if anyone is interested.

Line Audio CM3's https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/...obbycaseys.wav

In comparison my ADK A6's seem much more sensitive, and i dont have to crank the gain on the pre as much.

ADK A6 https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/.../anton_ADK.mp3

So maybe the CM3's are not the best choice for my relatively quiet guitar playing? Or maybe i need a preamp with more clean gain.

thanks

Anton
Old 14th November 2014
  #1041
Lives for gear
It's a pity you sold them before doing a few experiments with input levels. A lot of folks here shoot for peaks of -12 or lower, since recording at 24 bit resolution allows you to boost the gain later in your DAW with no noise increase penalty. So you would have required less preamp gain and consequently less noise. There's no denying the CM3 requires more preamp gain than other mics, but for your purposes this shouldn't have ruled them out.

The review of your Presonus linked here: Presonus Firestudio Mobile indicates nothing should be amiss on the gain or noise side of things

Maybe borrow them back for a day, try recording at lower levels @24 bit and let us know if anything changes on the noise front ? Don't forget to use dither when/if you reduce bit depth to 16 bit from 24....
Old 14th November 2014
  #1042
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antonemery View Post
Hi Folks,

Longtime lurker here, first time poster.

I record almost exclusively fingerpicking guitar and had a pair of CM3's. Eventually ended up selling them to a friend, though now I am kind of regretting it. I liked the tone, I just felt I had to crank my pre amp to high to get a hot enough signal going in. I usually shoot for a peak of -7db or so. Getting that level with the CM3's meant introducing to much preamp noise. I am using a presonus firestudio mobile. Here is a clip if anyone is interested.
There's a current thread here related to recording levels in another GS forum which suggests -12 to -18 dBFS is the way to go: How loud should I record? Use compressors or no?
Old 14th November 2014
  #1043
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Thanks for that info, I will check out the thread.

Unfortunately I cant borrow them back. Ill have another friend that has a pair come over so i can do a better evaluation. I needed, I can just buy them again...
Old 14th November 2014
  #1044
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jpgerard's Avatar
The CM3 should work fine and won't be a source of noise unless you place it really far from a quiet source (whcich is not the case here from your audio sample) and compress the heck out of it. Now, if preamp noise is a problem for you or if you plain prefer to avoid using too much gain from your pre, Triton Audio makes the Fethead Phantom which is a short XLR size 18 dB booster for condenser mic. Totally quiet and clean. Could be a solution to your problem.
Old 14th November 2014
  #1045
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

The level of the self-noise from the CM3 at the input of the preamp is (16 - 94) dB re. 1 Pa A-weighted - 44 dB re. 1 V/Pa = -122 dB re. 1 V A-weighted = -120 dBu A-weighted. This is much above the equivalent input noise level of any preamp, on the order of -131 dBu A-weighted for the quietest ones while a preamp with -125 dBu A-weighted EIN shall be considered as very noisy.
Hence the preamp noise should not be an issue when using the CM3.
Old 14th November 2014
  #1046
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jpgerard's Avatar
Assuming preamps with clean amplification. I've tested multi stage preamps in various analog consoles that would not fit this description. Obviously, a totally clean pre throughout its gain travel should not "add noise" and then the input noise is indeed relevant. I wish manufacturers would agree on a way to measure and show this in a more... straightforward manner. Thanks Didier for the math!
Old 14th November 2014
  #1048
if you want a total clean cardio SDC : sennheiser 8040
Old 14th November 2014
  #1049
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Studer58, kind of a dumb question, but when you mean turn up the gain in my DAW I assume that means raising the level of the track with the volume slider after it has been recorded? I am using Logic X.

Room/computer noise could have also been my problem. If I have to turn up the gain more to get a hot enough signal with the CM3's won't it pick up more room noise compared to using less gain with my ADK A6's? I am in an extra bedroom with some acoustic treatment. I know my iMac produces some noise, and there is general house/neighborhood noise.

I'd like to give the CM3's another try. There is another thread here on GS with a classical guitarist comparing them to a 184 and I really cannot hear much of a difference. And i was thinking about getting a pair of 184's for $1000 on the local Craigslist.
Old 14th November 2014
  #1050
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DCtoDaylight's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by antonemery View Post
Studer58, kind of a dumb question, but when you mean turn up the gain in my DAW I assume that means raising the level of the track with the volume slider after it has been recorded? I am using Logic X.

Room/computer noise could have also been my problem. If I have to turn up the gain more to get a hot enough signal with the CM3's won't it pick up more room noise compared to using less gain with my ADK A6's? I am in an extra bedroom with some acoustic treatment. I know my iMac produces some noise, and there is general house/neighborhood noise.

I'd like to give the CM3's another try. There is another thread here on GS with a classical guitarist comparing them to a 184 and I really cannot hear much of a difference. And i was thinking about getting a pair of 184's for $1000 on the local Craigslist.
For increasing gain in Logic, you can either add the Gain plugin as an insert on the track in question (more flexible and easy to tweak), or open the track with the Sample Editor and apply the "Change Gain..." function (useful if you want to run it through noise reduction software or whatever). Either way, you can choose an amount of gain that keeps the overall level in the zone you want, without slamming the track fader (i.e., gain staging).

And, yeah, if you're recording in a noisy environment, you have an uphill battle. The issue with the CM-3 is probably less the sensitivity than the fact that it's a wide cardioid, so it will tend to pick up more room sound than a "regular" cardioid like your A6.
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