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CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 15th September 2014
  #991
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Lorenzop's Avatar
 

All this preamp gain business is really overrated in the digital age. You don't need at all big gain.
You need enough CLEAN (noiseless) gain.
The rest you just bring up in digital with more gain on trim or fader or what not. Digital is perfectly noiseless so ..... use it! And a mic will have all the information captured regardless of wether preamp gains 50db or 70db

So on a CM as on any other mic, pretty much any preamp will do!
Old 15th September 2014
  #992
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Lorenzop's Avatar
 

All this preamp gain business is really overrated in the digital age. You don't need at all big gain.
You need enough CLEAN (noiseless) gain.
The rest you just bring up in digital with more gain on trim or fader or what not. Digital is perfectly noiseless so ..... use it! And a mic will have all the information captured regardless of wether preamp gains 50db or 70db

So on a CM as on any other mic, pretty much any preamp will do!
Old 4th October 2014
  #993
Here for the gear
Had the opportunity to recording an amateur string ensemble recently in the local conservatory. 2x CM3 20cm apart, 90?. 1x M-Audio Nova (LDC, Cardioid) slightly forward. Positioned somewhat like a pseudo Decca tree. CM3s panned hard left and right and the LDC centered.

No eq or reverb, the gain for the LDC was

Please have a listen. (Pardon the playing and the conductor talking, it was a rehearsal)

Mics>Roland Octa-Capture> USB > Laptop
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-dsc00839.jpg  
Attached Files

Vivaldi Double Cello Concerto.mp3 (3.02 MB, 1002 views)

Barber - Adagio for Strings.mp3 (3.32 MB, 898 views)

Dvorak.mp3 (3.78 MB, 898 views)

Old 4th October 2014
  #994
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boojum's Avatar
I do not think the M-Audio matches the CM3's well. Next time why not try and NOS array? There has been good luck with the CM3's this way and there will be no mismatch.
Old 5th October 2014
  #995
Here for the gear
I did try an NOS type array but encountered problems with a "hole" in the center of the stereo image. Maybe not panning the CM3s hard left or right? Anyway I'm an amateur at recording. Does anyone have some success with OM1s in spaced AB or Decca Tree?
Old 5th October 2014
  #996
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yasahiro View Post
I did try an NOS type array but encountered problems with a "hole" in the center of the stereo image. Maybe not panning the CM3s hard left or right? Anyway I'm an amateur at recording. Does anyone have some success with OM1s in spaced AB or Decca Tree?
I would re-check your NOS setup as folks have had success with the CM3's in this array. I have used the OM1's as AB omnis and they work fine. I had the CM3's in the middle as NOS. I can balance the NOS against the AB and get the "fuller" and "lusher" AB sound to add in with the NOS. I just did it the once for a rock band and it seemed to work OK for a live archival grab.
Old 14th October 2014
  #997
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Here are a few samples of things I've recorded in the past week using my CM3s in said NOS array. I continue to be impressed by these mics.

This is a chamber choir concert I sang in last weekend - very small church but nice acoustics. We are an auditioned, but amateur group. Choir and piano at one corner of modern squarish church, CM3s 10ft up behind conductor, about 10-15ft closer to ensemble than exact center of room.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/wtwukenlb4...ritas.mp3?dl=0
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nq76h66a5m...ieder.mp3?dl=0

Last one is solo piano (me) in a large high school auditorium. Mics are behind center orchestra seats, about 20ft forward of balcony overhang. Please excuse my errors in the fugue. Also, I had to run this one through RX noise removal because of the massive A/C blowers in there.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/o71p41pl8d...%2015.mp3?dl=0

For both concerts, the lineage was CM3 > Shure FP24 > Sony PCM-M10.
Old 14th October 2014
  #998
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boojum's Avatar
The chamber choir is an impressive professional effort. Those damned little CM3's, again, in the right place with good talent. It all works and works well.
Old 14th October 2014
  #999
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Thanks, boojum! Here's an organ solo from the chamber choir concert. Very small church, very small (but nice) organ.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g6t7gbkhk...ssohn.mp3?dl=0
Old 14th October 2014
  #1000
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Here is another CM3 recording, this time not with them in a starring role though. KM183's overhead A-B pair 45cms, CM3 as XY spot pair on voices about 1 metre back, and S502 as piano spot
Attached Files

The House.mp3 (2.38 MB, 1006 views)

Old 14th October 2014
  #1001
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Wow, that's a beautiful recording, and also a beautiful piece! Who is the composer?
Old 14th October 2014
  #1002
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voltronic View Post
Wow, that's a beautiful recording, and also a beautiful piece! Who is the composer?
It's written by Quincy Grant, texts by Erica Uberbrech based on the writings of Elfriede Jelinek (translation by Uberbrech and the composer)
https://www.facebook.com/quincy.grant.102?fref=ts
Old 14th October 2014
  #1003
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Here is another CM3 recording, this time not with them in a starring role though. KM183's overhead A-B pair 45cms, CM3 as XY spot pair on voices about 1 metre back, and S502 as piano spot
Nice one. Oh, Germans inspire such happy music. I feel I can make those tacky comments as I am mostly German, Ehrnewort!
Old 14th October 2014
  #1004
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by voltronic View Post
Thanks, boojum! Here's an organ solo from the chamber choir concert. Very small church, very small (but nice) organ.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/4g6t7gbkhk...ssohn.mp3?dl=0
Well done, good space. It works in a lovely way. The LA CM3 can be counted on. JP, you catching this?
Old 14th October 2014
  #1005
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jpgerard's Avatar
Always following!
Old 31st October 2014
  #1006
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DCtoDaylight's Avatar
 

Hi, all,

I've been meaning to grab a pair of CM-3s for a while now, and my budgetary situation finally seems to be cooperating. In preparation for ordering, I wanted to ask you experienced users about the Line Audio shockmounts - how would they compare to, say, the Rycote INV-3s, which seem like they'd be compatible, albeit more expensive. I have one pair of the INV-3s and like them, but if the Line Audio mounts will do the trick I'll go that route. Thanks in advance for comments!
Old 31st October 2014
  #1007
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Hi, all,

I've been meaning to grab a pair of CM-3s for a while now, and my budgetary situation finally seems to be cooperating. In preparation for ordering, I wanted to ask you experienced users about the Line Audio shockmounts - how would they compare to, say, the Rycote INV-3s, which seem like they'd be compatible, albeit more expensive. I have one pair of the INV-3s and like them, but if the Line Audio mounts will do the trick I'll go that route. Thanks in advance for comments!
Old 31st October 2014
  #1008
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elswhrco's Avatar
 

Without even a fraction of a second hesitation, I highly recommend picking up the Rycote mounts. The CM3s are super sensitive to inductive bass and the Rycote mounts to a good job of taming those. Yes, the INV-3 are the ones to use... perfectly complement the CM3s.
Old 31st October 2014
  #1009
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by DCtoDaylight View Post
Hi, all,

I've been meaning to grab a pair of CM-3s for a while now, and my budgetary situation finally seems to be cooperating. In preparation for ordering, I wanted to ask you experienced users about the Line Audio shockmounts - how would they compare to, say, the Rycote INV-3s, which seem like they'd be compatible, albeit more expensive. I have one pair of the INV-3s and like them, but if the Line Audio mounts will do the trick I'll go that route. Thanks in advance for comments!
If I was getting the CM-3 I would ignore the Line Audio mount and get an INV-3.

In fact, I would also get the Rycote flexible XLR tail to decouple the mic. from the main cable.
Old 31st October 2014
  #1010
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
If I was getting the CM-3 I would ignore the Line Audio mount and get an INV-3.

In fact, I would also get the Rycote flexible XLR tail to decouple the mic. from the main cable.
The cable clip is built in to the INV-3.
Old 31st October 2014
  #1011
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The CM3 is one of the lightest weight bodied mics around...without going to Rycote's specs page I'm not sure what effective mass they are tuned to, but I wonder if the Rycote lyres aren't more effective at damping LF in mics which have a greater body mass than the CM3 ?

There's an add-on accessory potential for Rycote....various thickness/compliance options for the INV's
Old 1st November 2014
  #1012
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
The CM3 is one of the lightest weight bodied mics around...without going to Rycote's specs page I'm not sure what effective mass they are tuned to, but I wonder if the Rycote lyres aren't more effective at damping LF in mics which have a greater body mass than the CM3 ?

There's an add-on accessory potential for Rycote....various thickness/compliance options for the INV's
This already exists:
Rycote Modular Lyre Upgrades

I've been on the hunt for a used pair of INV-6's. I'd rather have them than the INV-3's because they can be used with 19-25mm diameter mics, as opposed to the 3's which can only mount 20mm. $62 each is way more than I want to spend on a pair of shocks, but by all accounts I've read they are completely worth it. It's just hard to justify when the CM3s are the most expensive mics I own.
Rycote INV-6
Old 1st November 2014
  #1013
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The Line Audio mounts are better than Rycote due to the simple fact the suspension are softer.

I use Rycote for Sennheiser MKH8000 and they don't do a particular good job there. For my Royer SF12 I use the Line Audio, not Rycotes.

If I place stands with MKH8040 on stage I must use soft foam blocks under mic stand otherwise I typically have LF crap sneaking in when musicians move their feets on stage.

I suspect (and will try) foam under stand with hard coupling of mic to the stand (like Sennheisers own mounts that are supplied with the MKH8000 series) gives superior results to stand on floor directly and Rycotes.

The Rycotes are durable for sure but in no way superior to anything else out there. It's simple physics, stiffness of spring (in all three axis/directions), moving mass and losses.

I have used Rycotes with CM3 on stage as well and got away with it, but as mentioned I've had problems with the much heavier MKH8040. I would not buy a Rycote to CM3. A softer suspension is needed for good results.

Also the Rycotes have very different stiffness in different directions hence the decoupling will depend on which direction the forces are working. Even the smallest ones (INV3?) are very sitff comapred to Line Audio
Old 1st November 2014
  #1014
line audio CMEH shockmount is absolutely fine and costs 20 Euro.
Line Audio - Swedish Made High Quality Audio Products - Available at NoHype Audio
Old 2nd November 2014
  #1015
Gear Addict
 
voltronic's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
The Line Audio mounts are better than Rycote due to the simple fact the suspension are softer.

I use Rycote for Sennheiser MKH8000 and they don't do a particular good job there. For my Royer SF12 I use the Line Audio, not Rycotes.

If I place stands with MKH8040 on stage I must use soft foam blocks under mic stand otherwise I typically have LF crap sneaking in when musicians move their feets on stage.

I suspect (and will try) foam under stand with hard coupling of mic to the stand (like Sennheisers own mounts that are supplied with the MKH8000 series) gives superior results to stand on floor directly and Rycotes.

The Rycotes are durable for sure but in no way superior to anything else out there. It's simple physics, stiffness of spring (in all three axis/directions), moving mass and losses.

I have used Rycotes with CM3 on stage as well and got away with it, but as mentioned I've had problems with the much heavier MKH8040. I would not buy a Rycote to CM3. A softer suspension is needed for good results.

Also the Rycotes have very different stiffness in different directions hence the decoupling will depend on which direction the forces are working. Even the smallest ones (INV3?) are very sitff comapred to Line Audio
It's nothing to do with the size of the mount - Rycote makes their lyres in 3 different stiffnesses (shore ratings). Perhaps the ones you are using are too stiff? The light gray are the most stiff option; the all black the least stiff. The 8040 is still a very light weight mic. So I don't think saying you had problems with it and the CM3 is really that different in terms of weight for a shock to isolate.
Old 2nd November 2014
  #1016
nkf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by voltronic View Post
The light gray are the most stiff option; the all black the least stiff.
Just an experience with the light gray Lyres: (Just re-read it what I wrote before - that doesn't make full sense.) I bought the light gray version for the RSM191 and used it for the NT4 without changing back to the black ones and while they where working at first they were bending - not permanently, they wouldn't recover slowly then, but for some time.
The Lyre can be bend to much.

Line Audio CM3 ORTF Setup Rode Blimp - Klangmanufaktur

To get a smaller distance I use a headless screw between the Line Audio standard mounts, something what they didn't.
Attached Thumbnails
CM3 - really THAT good?-cm3ortf1_screw.jpg  

Last edited by nkf; 2nd November 2014 at 10:50 PM.. Reason: illogical description corrected
Old 7th November 2014
  #1017
Gear Head
 

Just ordered two CM3's for grand piano recording. What is the recommended positioning of these mics? NOS, ORTF, something different? I'm going to use theses in studio setting, piano and singer (have an U87 for the singer), jazz, a really good piano... Thanks
Old 7th November 2014
  #1018
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by vasikgreif View Post
Just ordered two CM3's for grand piano recording. What is the recommended positioning of these mics? NOS, ORTF, something different? I'm going to use theses in studio setting, piano and singer (have an U87 for the singer), jazz, a really good piano... Thanks
The thread has seemed to find the better luck with NOS. The CM3 is a wide cardioid and is better suited to that array,
Old 7th November 2014
  #1019
Quote:
Originally Posted by vasikgreif View Post
Just ordered two CM3's for grand piano recording. What is the recommended positioning of these mics? NOS, ORTF, something different? I'm going to use theses in studio setting, piano and singer (have an U87 for the singer), jazz, a really good piano... Thanks
A spaced omni AB can give a really great piano sound. This in mind, I have used my CM3's in spaced pair config instead of omnis when I am in an overly reverberent room. I reckon it worked well for me due to the wide pickup. That was on a choir, but I would defs give it a whirl on piano.
Old 7th November 2014
  #1020
Gear Nut
 

I remember reading someone's post saying he would sell their KM184 and keep the OM3, as they sound better. Probably here on GS. I wonder if some engineers have also used Line Audio mics on professional recordings for record labels, especially in albums released by classical music labels.
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