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CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 27th August 2014
  #961
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jpgerard's Avatar
Don't forget that the CM3 has a built in (non defeatable) low cut. It helps compensate for proximity effect. Now, if there were enough requests, I could, maybe, order a small batch of special CM3's with a linear low end down to, say, 50Hz, shifting the -3 dBs point to somewhere around 30Hz. Personally I prefer a tiny bit of EQ in post if required, as the CM3 works most of the time as it is... but if a flatter sub-100hz response really helped some users when distant mic'ing, I could talk to Roger about it. Thoughts?
Old 27th August 2014
  #962
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Don't forget that the CM3 has a built in (non defeatable) low cut. It helps compensate for proximity effect. Now, if there were enough requests, I could, maybe, order a small batch of special CM3's with a linear low end down to, say, 50Hz, shifting the -3 dBs point to somewhere around 30Hz. Personally I prefer a tiny bit of EQ in post if required, as the CM3 works most of the time as it is... but if a flatter sub-100hz response really helped some users when distant mic'ing, I could talk to Roger about it. Thoughts?
I'd certainly buy a pair.
Old 28th August 2014
  #963
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scorpix74's Avatar
Nice. Idk which one I would prefer when back in Europe.
Old 28th August 2014
  #964
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Richard Crowley's Avatar
 

I would be very interested in four CM3 mics with extended LF response.
It would be helpful for those of us recording large pipe organs, etc.

We can always engage Lo-cut on many/most mic preamp inputs.
But nobody implements "LF Restore". :-)
Old 28th August 2014
  #965
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jpgerard's Avatar
Interesting - thanks for the replies. I'll ask Roger.
Old 28th August 2014
  #966
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
Interesting - thanks for the replies. I'll ask Roger.
Please keep me in mind too!
Old 28th August 2014
  #967
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jpgerard's Avatar
Sure - I'll post here if it can be done.
Old 28th August 2014
  #968
You could count me in on that as well, I'd love a more linear version!
Old 28th August 2014
  #969
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jpgerard's Avatar
OK, looks like this will keep Roger busy - if it can be done... I still don't have a firm reply. Hang in there.
Old 28th August 2014
  #970
Quote:
Originally Posted by jpgerard View Post
OK, looks like this will keep Roger busy - if it can be done... I still don't have a firm reply. Hang in there.
It would be interesting, as the OM1 has more bass response,
CM3 and Om1 would match better.

In a bad hall CM3 with extended bass would be interesting.
Old 28th August 2014
  #971
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This has to be the longest running thread in the history of Gearslutz!
Old 28th August 2014
  #972
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Now I see why the organ recording I did with a pair of CM3s sounded a bit bottomless. So yes, a flatter CM3 would be highly desirable.
Old 28th August 2014
  #973
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boojum's Avatar
FWIW

The simple way to get that bottom end is to use a pair of OM1's in conjunction with the CM3's. The card - omni combo is an old one, and for good reason. It solves that bass shy problem some cards have and also adds a bit more room sound to the mix.
Old 28th August 2014
  #974
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Mats H's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by hughshouse View Post
This has to be the longest running thread in the history of Gearslutz!


For good reason. This mic is becoming a staple of the Swedish recording and live industry. I've seen this mic spec'd in riders along SM58 and the industry standards. Several of my friends who record music have one. It's cheap and good enough for musicians who want an instrument mic and not have to worry. I own four. And two CM2s. I use them with my Sennheisers, Neumanns and Microtech Gefell mics.
Old 28th August 2014
  #975
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scorpix74's Avatar
Will put it on BTM snare if you remove the lowcut :D
Old 28th August 2014
  #976
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Mats H's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpix74 View Post
Will put it on BTM snare if you remove the lowcut :D
It's great for btm snare.
Old 29th August 2014
  #977
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So this is the rolloff we're talking about in the bass end ...see pic attached. However I'm confused because folks here specifically comment on its extended low end and warmth compared with regular cardioid mics, and now we're saying it's deficient (the graph would bear this out BTW) ?

Perhaps what we're really saying is that it's a bipolar mic (as in disorder...not fig 8 !) In other words at 0.3 metre distance the bass holds up rather better than a cardioid at similar distance, but at 1 metre the bass drops off substantially below 100 Hz, and something is being proposed to repair this ? So at 0.3 metre it's behaving more like a typical omni and at 1 metre it becomes cardioid like ?

Old 29th August 2014
  #978
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Mats H's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
So at 0.3 metre it's behaving more like a typical omni and at 1 metre it becomes cardioid like ?
Well, all cardioid mics roll off the low end with distance due to the proximity effect. Some mics are voiced to be flat at 5 cm, some at 1 m. The CM3 has boatloads of low end if you need it. Perhaps it's voiced less bassy than my MKH40 but it's good. Just add some low frequencies back with EQ if you find it to be too subtle. But as others point out, for real low end add an omni mic or two.
Old 29th August 2014
  #979
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Yes, as Mats and boojum point out, adding an OM1 (perhaps as a Faulkner/boojum/Norman 4 mic array or a Straus Packet) is the way to get extra low end ?

As a matter of interest, if one wanted to rolloff the OM1 above a certain frequency to allow the CM3 to take over the 'beyond low-bass' duties, where would be a good spot to implement the rolloff...above 80 Hz...100..150 ?

Similarly, would you impose a complementary high pass on the CM3...and at what frequency (and steepness of curve) would that be advised to set at ?

Of course the OM1 is capable of covering the same frequency range as the CM3, so is it best to allow them unfiltered performance across both of their operating ranges, or is such proposed filtering an advisable procedure.

Maybe a bit like multiple speaker drivers operating in a box, is it advisable to implement a crossover (ie complementary rolloff filtering), or allow the natural performance characteristics (and limitations)of each driver (or in this case, mic) to function without intervention ?
Old 30th August 2014
  #980
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Lorenzop's Avatar
 

I never understood, what's the difference between a -3db roll off AT THE MIC and a +3db compensation one might add later on an eq?

Assuming filter curve could be matched, and assuming you use a super clean digital eq (no colour added) to boost up a microphone roll off, there shouldn't be any difference. I mean the information is there, the mic captures the same information it's just -3db lower, correct? So just boosting it would be sufficient.

At least theoretically. Now I understand in practice it's more problems because eqs add other components in a signal path etc etc...

Or not?
Old 30th August 2014
  #981
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Yes, as Mats and boojum point out, adding an OM1 (perhaps as a Faulkner/boojum/Norman 4 mic array or a Straus Packet) is the way to get extra low end ?

As a matter of interest, if one wanted to rolloff the OM1 above a certain frequency to allow the CM3 to take over the 'beyond low-bass' duties, where would be a good spot to implement the rolloff...above 80 Hz...100..150 ?

Similarly, would you impose a complementary high pass on the CM3...and at what frequency (and steepness of curve) would that be advised to set at ?

Of course the OM1 is capable of covering the same frequency range as the CM3, so is it best to allow them unfiltered performance across both of their operating ranges, or is such proposed filtering an advisable procedure.

Maybe a bit like multiple speaker drivers operating in a box, is it advisable to implement a crossover (ie complementary rolloff filtering), or allow the natural performance characteristics (and limitations)of each driver (or in this case, mic) to function without intervention ?
I'd try it with the OM1's in for the full frequency range. You may get some good room sound that will make the capture better. If not you can roll it off.
Old 30th August 2014
  #982
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jpgerard's Avatar
Obviosuly there's nothing wrong with boosting the low end on a CM3, espcially these days with plug ins that let you dial in any curve you can think of. But I understand that when recording on location, you want to get the sound right before you hit the Record button. I'm waiting for a reply from Roger on whether an extended bass CM3 is possible or not.
Old 30th August 2014
  #983
And anyway, boosting low frequencies often boosts the LF noise as well.
I would prefer recording a hotter signal in the low end and applying high-pass EQ afterwards if need be...
Old 31st August 2014
  #984
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jpgerard's Avatar
Good point. Keep in mind that the CM3 was supposed to be an all rounder: it must do well at distant mic'ing but also as a spot mic and when close mic'ing too. I guess that ideally the CM3 would be flat down to 50Hz and have a switchable HPF at 100Hz. However it will add to the complexity, cost and size of the mic. I still don't know if it's even possible. I'll keep you guys posted.
Old 31st August 2014
  #985
Personally I would be much more interested in a fig8 from Line Audio...
Old 31st August 2014
  #986
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jpgerard's Avatar
Maybe at some point, when a multipattern model is offered again.
Old 3rd September 2014
  #987
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jpgerard's Avatar
Well Roger didn't give me a firm "no" but a CM3 with a "flatter" LF is not going to be available any time soon. However he'll be giving it some thought when he gets a chance.
Old 11th September 2014
  #988
Gear Maniac
Recently i used my couple of CM3s as spots for second violins and celli (live concert recording). They worked well together with my B+K 4006, Schoeps CMC52, KM140, AKG C460B. I found the wide pattern quite useful, generally i like less directional mics better for string section spots.
Attached Files

01 MendelssohnHebriden.mp3 (8.49 MB, 1030 views)

Old 12th September 2014
  #989
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It worth use a Triton Fethead Phantom with the CM3 in quiet sources? Or it's better have a preamp with a lot of gain? I currently have a Presonus Firestudio Mobile. In my home studio for example with solo violin I need to crank the pre for a good level, but the noise become more apparent. In the other hand with the Rode NT1a I don't need crank the pre for good level and noise it's not audible, but the tone of that mic it's not great like the CM3.
Old 12th September 2014
  #990
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jpgerard's Avatar
Any good preamp with the usual 60dBs will work fine using a CM3. A Fethad Phantom is nice when your preamps are not that great (poorly designed input stage or noisy at high gains). I don't own that Presonus but the few Presonus I've heard were pretty decent. Please note that in your case, you're comparing a quieter, more sensitive LD mic with a noisiser, lower output SD mic. Generally speaking, modern LDC's have noise floors under 15dBA while SDC's are typically around 16dBA and up. Also note that I just started trying MBHO mics mainly because some customers asked for a quieter CM3, which is very difficult to design because of the limitations of the capsule. I might have a solution for people looking for the generally flat tone of the CM3 but with quieter perofrmance, and still under the Schoeps price range. Contact me if interested.
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