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CM3 - really THAT good? Condenser Microphones
Old 3rd June 2014
  #931
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Richard Crowley's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sweelinck View Post
Today I had a chat with an organist who was proud to tell me that the engineer who recorded his last CD used 14 microphones (!!!!!!) to record the organ... Some people still think that the more microphones there are the better it sounds..
Nobody here believes that he ended up using all those microphones concurrently (or likely even a fraction of them.)

Putting up 7 pair around the space to record such a large instrument (REMEMBER that the room is PART of the instrument!) doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Sure I have gone in and recorded a pipe organ with just a single pair. Typically, I've had enough time during rehearsal/practice, etc. to get the mics into the right position for the instrument and the room. But having the option of several POV in mixdown is not frivolous, IMHO.

Would it be desirable to have a photographer come in to shoot album pix with one, fixed-focal length lens? I don't think so.
Old 3rd June 2014
  #932
nkf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Crowley View Post
Nobody here believes that he ended up using all those microphones concurrently (or likely even a fraction of them.)
I often use multiple microphones to record e.g. acoustic guitar. Not because I'm insecure because of mic placing. No, I want to have mixing options afterwards and sometimes it is pure experimentation. Recently I recorded solo cello with four microphones. I do this because I can and like to learn. Mixing several microphones, even with different distances, is now a quite convenient thing thanks to plug ins like InPhase from Waves or MAutoAlign from MeldaProduction.
Sometimes more is more.
Old 3rd June 2014
  #933
Gear Addict
Indeed. Better skipping extra tracks/mics then regretting them ...
Old 3rd June 2014
  #934
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scorpix74's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by nkf View Post
I often use multiple microphones to record e.g. acoustic guitar. Not because I'm insecure because of mic placing. No, I want to have mixing options afterwards and sometimes it is pure experimentation. Recently I recorded solo cello with four microphones. I do this because I can and like to learn. Mixing several microphones, even with different distances, is now a quite convenient thing thanks to plug ins like InPhase from Waves or MAutoAlign from MeldaProduction.
Sometimes more is more.
Time aligning don't make your phase right. Phase is a complex so you'll still have phase shift regarding frequencies.
Old 3rd June 2014
  #935
nkf
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scorpix74 View Post
Time aligning don't make your phase right. Phase is a complex so you'll still have phase shift regarding frequencies.
I forgot UAD IBP, which I also have, and sometimes I use Voxengo Latency Delay by ear. I'm not afraid of phase changes as long as it sounds good and interesting and I always have the option to just using one microphone. The players move and you get all sorts of sound movement anyway. I'm guilty in using EQs too - changing phase in certain frequencies.

hint 1: I'm not aligning two very different microphones
hint 2: if signals are mixed (not done every time) the channels are
not of equal levels - one is usually very low, adding just a little bit.
hint 3: close miking

In this example I only mixed the two D-01s to hear how it sounds. I was experimenting to learn the sound differences. There is even a SoundField beside the other mics but not visible here. I'm constantly using and abusing mic positions and luckily the 'Mic Position Police' or the 'Phase Agency' didn't show up yet.

Old 4th June 2014
  #936
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nkf View Post
I forgot UAD IBP, which I also have, and sometimes I use Voxengo Latency Delay by ear. I'm not afraid of phase changes as long as it sounds good and interesting and I always have the option to just using one microphone. The players move and you get all sorts of sound movement anyway. I'm guilty in using EQs too - changing phase in certain frequencies.

hint 1: I'm not aligning two very different microphones
hint 2: if signals are mixed (not done every time) the channels are
not of equal levels - one is usually very low, adding just a little bit.
hint 3: close miking

In this example I only mixed the two D-01s to hear how it sounds. I was experimenting to learn the sound differences. There is even a SoundField beside the other mics but not visible here. I'm constantly using and abusing mic positions and luckily the 'Mic Position Police' or the 'Phase Agency' didn't show up yet.

Looks perfectly fine to me!
Old 5th June 2014
  #937
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by classical View Post
Why do so many classical-label sound engineers insist on using 24 mics, tons of EQ, compression, limiting, reverb and so forth, thereby butchering the sound?
Because great mic placement is hard.
Old 10th June 2014
  #938
Here for the gear
 

This may have already been answered- sorry if a repeat- but how would these mics fare for distant concert taping (outdoor festivals, etc)?

I generally run mics with a higher sensitivity level, but am looking for a set of wide cards. I'd run these in front of a Wendt X2, which can provide plenty of clean and quiet gain.
Old 11th June 2014
  #939
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Crowley View Post
Nobody here believes that he ended up using all those microphones concurrently (or likely even a fraction of them.)

Putting up 7 pair around the space to record such a large instrument (REMEMBER that the room is PART of the instrument!) doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Sure I have gone in and recorded a pipe organ with just a single pair. Typically, I've had enough time during rehearsal/practice, etc. to get the mics into the right position for the instrument and the room. But having the option of several POV in mixdown is not frivolous, IMHO.

Would it be desirable to have a photographer come in to shoot album pix with one, fixed-focal length lens? I don't think so.
What I reported were not the words of the engineer, but the words of the organist. People (especially musicians who are recorded) get excited about the quantity of microphones, and they are often disappointed when you put just two pairs of microphones to record a string quartet or a piano.

In the specific case of the organ I don't know if they were 7 pairs or 2 mains plus 12 spots. 7 pairs could make sense... 2 main + 12 spots looks a bit more dangerous.

Again, I have no clue about the details. The only thing I know is that there is a diffuse idea of 'the more the better', and that's why I reported this
Old 25th June 2014
  #940
And yet another post showing off the great quality of these little microphones.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OU3P...6gJFiNUPvXEPsg
Two CM3's in DIN-setup (90°/20cm), no EQ other than bass roll off (from 90Hz down), the slightests of reverb added.

Don't forget to switch to HD quality and enjoy (I am the guy at the harpsichord without lid)!

Last edited by apotheosis; 25th June 2014 at 08:05 PM.. Reason: forgot to mention me
Old 26th June 2014
  #941
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boojum's Avatar
Well played, in both senses! The CM3 is not the best mic in the world, for sure, but it always comports itself well. It will not embarrass you.
Old 26th June 2014
  #942
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Nice playing and sound !
What did you use as preamp because the CM3 are not very hot and harpsichords are quiet and the mics were far from the instruments. But I don't hear any noise
But I would prefer more proximity
Old 26th June 2014
  #943
Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
Nice playing and sound !
What did you use as preamp because the CM3 are not very hot and harpsichords are quiet and the mics were far from the instruments. But I don't hear any noise
But I would prefer more proximity
RME Octamic, recorded in 44.1kHz/24bit, with an extra 12dB of master gain fader in my DAW afterwards.
Playing and recording at the same time has its downsides (of course), and to my taste the recording a tiny bit too close actually. Harpsichords sound at their best around 4 to 5m distance, and especially with two instruments placed in this setup I prefer a sound in which both instruments blend well together. I find the top of the instrument I am playing (the front instrument) still too present as compared to the basses of the back instrument.
Old 27th June 2014
  #944
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
What did you use as preamp because the CM3 are not very hot and harpsichords are quiet and the mics were far from the instruments.
The CM3 sensitivity is high enough (6 mV/Pa) for its self-noise (16 dBA) at the preamp input being higher than the equivalent input noise from the preamp. Then the signal-to-noise ratio is limited only by the mic self-noise. There would be no benefit from a higher mic sensitivity while keeping the same mic self-noise level.

More precisely:

Mic self-noise 16 dB SPL A-weighted = 16 - 94 re. 1 Pa A-weighted
Mic sensitivity -44 dB re. 1 V/Pa
Mic self-noise at preamp input = -78 - 44 = -122 dB re. 1 V = -120 dBu A-weighted
RME Octamic equivalent input noise = -129 dBu unweighted = -132 dBu A-weighted

So the preamp noise is 12 dB below the mic noise.

.
Old 27th June 2014
  #945
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by apotheosis View Post
RME Octamic, recorded in 44.1kHz/24bit, with an extra 12dB of master gain fader in my DAW afterwards.
Playing and recording at the same time has its downsides (of course), and to my taste the recording a tiny bit too close actually. Harpsichords sound at their best around 4 to 5m distance, and especially with two instruments placed in this setup I prefer a sound in which both instruments blend well together. I find the top of the instrument I am playing (the front instrument) still too present as compared to the basses of the back instrument.
I wondered about this, the proximity. I am used to a closer sound. But your professional experience prefers a more distant, mellow sound. Thanks for that input.
Old 29th June 2014
  #946
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voltronic's Avatar
 

Required gain for distant classical / jazz?

For those that do quiet jazz and classical recording, how much gain have you found that the CM3 needs, especially at distance? I am having a battery-powered preamp for mobile recording custom built for me, and am also going to purchase a CM3 pair based on what I've heard and read here. Much has been made about the lower sensitivity of these mics. I'm trying to determine if I should order the preamp with higher max gain (40-50 dB) versus a more typical max gain for this unit of 36 dB and adjust the level higher in post if needed. Thanks for the advice!
Old 30th June 2014
  #947
Lives for gear
I use the DAV BG8 mic preamp with a pair of CM3 in NOS at around 9 feet above the conductor and the DAV stepped gains are typically at 9o'clock or less so that represents about 32 to 35 dB of gain only. Recording at 24 bit I find that's plenty of gain, so you probably won't need more gain than that. Others may suggest you go for more gain in case you end up recording solo classical guitar for example....? I'd say what you have planned will be fine, and boost in post.
Old 30th June 2014
  #948
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voltronic's Avatar
 

I split the difference and went with 44dB max gain. I usually set my levels very conservatively so I have plenty of headroom to play with in post as you said. Thanks for the advice!
Old 1st July 2014
  #949
I used the CM3 in NOS setup with a historical piano, so not as loud as an orchestra, and I had to pull up the gain at about 40dB
Old 8th July 2014
  #950
Gear Maniac
 
Philip Marinelis's Avatar
CM3 in the studio

Hi all,

Recently I became a Line Audio dealer in Greece, and finaly I got to use the mics. So far they were being demoed by some people.

There aren't many clips showing the CM3's abilities in the studio so I thought I'd share one.

Just finished the session. The track is recorded live in the studio; no eq, no compression, just a touch of reverb.

CM3 on bass, OM1 as a room mic, both through a Line Audio 2MP.

The hiss is from the tube vocal mic; I pluged the psu to the wrong outlet but thought it added kind of a "tape-y" vibe so I kept it that way.

Hope you like it
Attached Files
Old 1st August 2014
  #951
I own both OM1s and CM3s. The latter is a little bass shy compared with the former, so if you have a boomy instrument to record, the CM3 can tame things down. But if recording a full-range instrument like a piano, I must say that the CM3 will make the piano a little lean and bright. You can see it on the response chart. Part of the reason is due to the polar pattern, as cardioids have a natural tendency towards bass shyness. This reminds me of most commercial classical CDs, which sound even more lean and bright.
Old 5th August 2014
  #952
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fred2bern's Avatar
From Line audio:
"Polar pattern: Cardioid (slightly wide/semi wide cardioid)"
The CM-3 is not a "cardoid" microphone. Just look at the polar pattern and compare with any cardioid mic.
Old 5th August 2014
  #953
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fred2bern's Avatar
From Line audio:
"Polar pattern: Cardioid (slightly wide/semi wide cardioid)"
The CM-3 is not a "cardoid" microphone. Just look at the polar pattern and compare with any cardioid mic.
Old 9th August 2014
  #954
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

From -90° to +90° with respect to the microphone axis, the directivity pattern of the CM3 is closer to the cardioid (-6 dB attenuation at 90°) than to the wide cardioid (-4 dB attenuation).
Old 11th August 2014
  #955
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whestworld's Avatar
 

I have both the Schoeps mics and a pair of CM3s. The CM3s are no Schoeps at any stretch but for the price, and to add to your mic kit they are great. You do need a bit more gain with CM3s. I find them a bit lean which helps in an overly boomy room and as for polar pattern... I would put them in the wide-cardioid camp than the strictly cardioid camp. The pattern isn't as tight as the Schoeps but then the price is only £200 or so.

Forgetting the tonal balance, the Schoeps mics are far more resolving in the harmonic region and certainly far far better if using a stereo pair in ORTF, NOS or XY as I have found that the noise levels on the CM3 are a tad higher than the Schoeps models. The interesting thing is that with a tiny bit of EQ'ing you can get the CM3 to sound like a Schoeps 'tonally' but that is it.

As an aside.... I'm really digging the bigger Lewitt mics.

James
Old 11th August 2014
  #956
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Don S's Avatar
 

I've been using my pair of CM3's as spot mics with Schoeps main pair. The pattern makes it!
Old 12th August 2014
  #957
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whestworld's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Don S View Post
I've been using my pair of CM3's as spot mics with Schoeps main pair. The pattern makes it!
I've done the same and have found the combination really nice although for 'colour and body' I like the Gefell UMT 70s as spots with a Schoeps pair far more.
Old 12th August 2014
  #958
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Don S's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by whestworld View Post
I've done the same and have found the combination really nice although for 'colour and body' I like the Gefell UMT 70s as spots with a Schoeps pair far more.
Maybe the UMT70's I used were faulty, but the self noise was very high. Although I can see the advantage of having a multi-pattern mic! And as previously pointed out, you can't beat the price/performance ratio of the CM3. Especially when I need an additional stereo pair for spots. (winds, piano, harpsichord)
Old 26th August 2014
  #959
Hey guys! A new recording made with the CM3 and DAV BG1, plus two DPA 2006 on a Line Audio preamp in the same bar (for the room sound). First mp3 it's an Ukrainian group, second a Hungarian duo, both performing in a beautiful church.
Two pair of mics in AB, with about 20 degrees angle.
Beautiful music... I'm looking forward to your reactions!
Attached Files

Ukraine DEMO 1.mp3 (7.57 MB, 745 views)

hungary-cutGS 2.mp3 (5.70 MB, 678 views)


Last edited by sweelinck; 26th August 2014 at 06:24 PM..
Old 27th August 2014
  #960
Lives for gear
Not sure if you can hear them doing their thing, but I used a pair of CM3's as outriggers in this pair of pieces:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LYT...ature=youtu.be
and
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsr3bIsSAtM
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