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Wide cardioid: Schoeps or Gefell? Condenser Microphones
Old 1st January 2011
  #31
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JEGG View Post
The "wide cardioids" and subcardioids are usually down by 6 dB at 90 degrees, the same as a cardioid.
tutt

cardioid (MK4): -6 dB
wide cardioid (MK21): -4 dB
open cardioid (MK22): -5 dB
Old 1st January 2011
  #32
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
tutt

cardioid (MK4): -6 dB
wide cardioid (MK21): -4 dB
open cardioid (MK22): -5 dB
There's very little in that when the entire frequency range is considered, rather than one nominal figure. And when used for ambient technique, there is nothing at all in it.

Not to say the different patterns sound the same-they don't, but it is for reasons other than an arbitrary front angle of acceptance. Rather it is due to the capsule exhibiting more omni characteristics: a more parallel/uniform polar response, with no off axis peaks and a slightly more open lower end both on and off axis, all contributing to a more "warm" presentation, as Schoeps likes to call it.
Old 1st January 2011
  #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
I feel like getting a pair of wide cardioids for classical recording. The question is if I should get Schoeps MK21 (with CMC6) or Microtech Gefell M950. It is a fight between my rational (Schoeps) side or the romantic (Gefell) side. They are both high quality and cost about the same (within 400€ for a pair). At the moment I am leaning towards Gefells (quieter, cheaper, different, more "exotic"). Help anyone?
Although it is not a wide cardioid, I'd consider the Josephson/Gefell c617
as well, especially for classical.
Old 10th January 2011
  #34
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Thank you all. Both educational end entertaining. What happened next is what was destined to happen: ordered a pair or M950:s, dark bronze...

Looking at the Stereophonic Zoom paper it looks like 30-35 cm base with 110 degree arrangement with these would equal normal ORTF. A starting point anyway.
Old 10th January 2011
  #35
Quote:
Thank you all. Both educational end entertaining. What happened next is what was destined to happen: ordered a pair or M950:s, dark bronze...
Post samples when you can!
Old 13th January 2011
  #36
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wellyouneednt's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mpdonahue View Post
The only one of the group that I use as mains are the MK21's and only on chamber music and typically in not so great halls. I probably space them wider than most here, usually 70-100cm.
This spacing is interesting...what angle(s) would you typically use?

Cheers
wellyouneednt
Old 13th January 2011
  #37
Quote:
Originally Posted by wellyouneednt View Post
This spacing is interesting...what angle(s) would you typically use?

Cheers
wellyouneednt
Typically none, pointing straight ahead. In this situation, I'm using them more like omni's. To be honest I haven't measured an angle in probably 20 years.... Just eyeball it. Then tweak it to sound good.
All the best,
-mark
Old 14th January 2011
  #38
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wellyouneednt's Avatar
 

Thanks Mark,

I'm going to experiment with your setup.

Cheers,
wellyouneednt
Old 14th January 2011
  #39
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpdonahue View Post
Typically none, pointing straight ahead. In this situation, I'm using them more like omni's. To be honest I haven't measured an angle in probably 20 years.... Just eyeball it. Then tweak it to sound good.
All the best,
-mark
Mark, now I am curious. Do you not measure the angles in most/all AB arrays? Just for wide cards? Under what circumstances do you not measure angles? And how about distance?? I am curious as I try to be quit exact for Mk4 ORTF arrays and for omni AB arrays. I use Williams as a guide.

Thanks for any enlightenment you can provide.
Old 14th January 2011
  #40
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I don't see the point in reproducing exact ortf arrays. Every ensemble and
space is different. The thought of pointing cardioids way off axis is
unappealing to begin with. If there is time during a rehearsal it is
interesting to try various near coincident arrays to see what works for
that particular situation.
Old 14th January 2011
  #41
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Don S's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
I don't see the point in reproducing exact ortf arrays. Every ensemble and
space is different. The thought of pointing cardioids way off axis is
unappealing to begin with. If there is time during a rehearsal it is
interesting to try various near coincident arrays to see what works for
that particular situation.
thumbsupI could be wrong, but ORTF was designed as a "default" orchestral mic setup for use behind the conductor. I believe many of us here may start an ORTF and tweak as the sound check goes, especially with smaller ensembles. I've also found that MK21's give a little more flexibility with placement and angles in situations where stand placement is limited.
Old 14th January 2011
  #42
Quote:
I don't see the point in reproducing exact ortf arrays.
The ORTF angle has more to do with the microphones relationship with each other than it does the ensemble, so in that respect the theory is solid, but the factors in a real life situation alter the practicality: The nature of the ensemlbe, the angle of incidence, the "real" pattern of the microphone, etc are all going to change how it translates.
Old 16th January 2011
  #43
I know that I've said it before, but I have to say it again- most of this comes down to just a little common sense and listening.
Chamber music and solo instruments, yea, I use a spaced pair with no splay.
For orchestra, probably a little splay to compensate for the stuff at the sides of the stage, but if I listen and there is a bit of a hole in the center, I'll move them back toward a forward orientation or reduce the width and I'll do the opposite if there is buildup in the center. Not really any magic formula or rocket surgery here, just listening and compensating. To be honest, you can typically tell if the position and angles are right during the warm-up of the orchestra.
WRT coincident and quasi-coincident setups, I really just don't use them as main pairs. To be honest, standards like ORTF and NOS are designed to give an acceptable pickup in many varying situations, but also typically not the ideal pickup in any situation. That's just the way of standard systems. While I use a variation of a Decca tree for my large surround orchestral recordings, it changes based on the situation and listening. The front to back and left to right dimensions as well as the positioning of the array all change depending on the group, repertoire and hall.
Sorry, there is no magic bullet here, just good old fashioned seat of the pants engineering.
Old 16th January 2011
  #44
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boojum's Avatar
^^^^^^^ Thank you. thumbsup
Old 8th February 2011
  #45
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post

The Gefell M900 is a large condenser that is called cardioid, but is actually very wide-cardioid. I can't say enough about this microphone, one of my favorites.
I have two for sale if anyone's interested:
FS: Microtech Gefell M900 x2 - Mint

::
Mads
Old 8th February 2011
  #46
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Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
I have two for sale if anyone's interested:
FS: Microtech Gefell M900 x2 - Mint

::
Mads
And great price too. thumbsup
Old 12th February 2011
  #47
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I bought a pair of Gefell M950:s. Like them a lot, even though I have been able to use them only a couple of times. Beautyfull sound, dead quiet. Surpricingly solid low end even with a 32 foot organ (maybe only 2-3 dB down at 20 Hz). I have been using them with 36 cm separation and 90 degree angle between mics, this should give the same recording angle as ORTF with cardioids. They are kind of cute also...

I have been too lazy to carry my Orpheus/Maselec rig to make comparasons, but maybe in two weeks I have a piano recording where I could pit these against MKH8020, MKH8040 and DPA4060, the other decent stereo pairs in my possession.
Old 12th February 2011
  #48
Quote:
bought a pair of Gefell M950:s. Like them a lot, even though I have been able to use them only a couple of times. Beautyfull sound, dead quiet. Surpricingly solid low end even with a 32 foot organ (maybe only 2-3 dB down at 20 Hz). I have been using them with 36 cm separation and 90 degree angle between mics, this should give the same recording angle as ORTF with cardioids. They are kind of cute also...

I have been too lazy to carry my Orpheus/Maselec rig to make comparasons, but maybe in two weeks I have a piano recording where I could pit these against MKH8020, MKH8040 and DPA4060, the other decent stereo pairs in my possession.
Please! Post everything you can, I'd like to hear the organ. Not alot of samples of 950 available.
Old 12th February 2011
  #49
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fafalio's Avatar
 

wide cardiod are interesting mics because among all have the more regular frequency responce at all angular position of the polar graph.
among all of them i ve listened only mk21. it has a polar graph perfect until 8kh, loosing oround 5-7 dB at 16kh.
the gefell M950 graph is not comparable...
a mic can have consistent directionality throughout its frequency range only if it is small capsule. On the other hand this is only a consideration of the sheet, the best thing is listen one near another, but i haven t this possibility.
the last candidate is DPA 4015A. it looks better than MG, but not as schoeps.
so the more neutral seems to be MK21. I repeat, in the sheet.
Alessandro.
Old 14th February 2011
  #50
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ISedlacek's Avatar
This is what is on my sofa right now (including Gefell M950, m300, Schoeps MK21 etc.). Shall I try for you ?

I tried those 950, sound quite interesting ...
Attached Thumbnails
Wide cardioid: Schoeps or Gefell?-mikr1.jpg   Wide cardioid: Schoeps or Gefell?-mikr3.jpg  
Old 14th February 2011
  #51
Quote:
This is what is on my sofa right now (including Gefell M950, m300, Schoeps MK21 etc.). Shall I try for you ?
First off, I hate you , second, yes please, give us some samples.
Old 14th February 2011
  #52
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fafalio's Avatar
 

IVO, i could became a thief :-D
wunderful wunderful....
i'm searching from a lot of time the best wide cardioid available...
perhaps it is mk21, but it would be interesting to listen also to the new DPA 4015A and the gefell.
how do you compare IVO the gefell to the schoeps? do you have tried the DPA?
i think the are not other brand that makes wide cardioid near these one...
Alessandro.
Old 14th February 2011
  #53
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Tonight I will arrange MK21 in the closest possible proximity to M950 and will play few simultaneous takes on various instruments and post if for you
Old 14th February 2011
  #54
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Tonight I will arrange MK21 in the closest possible proximity to M950 and will play few simultaneous takes on various instruments and post if for you


::
Mads
Old 14th February 2011
  #55
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Oh, I am very sorry, after arranging both stereo pairs in almost the same position, I realised that I have lent my second AD to someone :( So I cannot record simultaneous takes at the moment ... have to wait till it returns ...

Here at least something:

RECORDER M950

RECORDER MK21

DRUM M950

DRUM MK21

or nylon string classical guitar in comparison with Schoeps MK22:

GUITAR M950

GUITAR MK22
Old 15th February 2011
  #56
Quote:
Here at least something:
That is more than something, thank you very much.

I personally cannot say which models I like more. On the recorder I would give the edge to the Schoeps, but I liked the punchy Gefell more on the Drum. The guitar examples were both quite nice. Schoeps 22 being a little smoother and up front, and the 950 more open and relaxed with a subtle high frequency sheen I liked very much.

All the examples deliver a nice, "high-end" sound you can only get from a great mic.

One thing I can easily compare is the self noise of the mics, the Schoeps is quiet but measurable, the Gefell almost non-exhistent.

I would be proud to own either.
Old 15th February 2011
  #57
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hbphotoav's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
This is what is on my sofa right now (including Gefell M950, m300, Schoeps MK21 etc.). Shall I try for you ?

I tried those 950, sound quite interesting ...
You are not a nice man. Gear Lust is clouding my brain...

Nice pictures, though... =) Agree with Mr Rumley... ever so slightly brighter/darker... would have loved to have put my ears where the mics were for a bit before "rec" was pressed. What do yours tell you re: "reality" in that acoustic?

Thanks for the great samples.

HB
Old 15th February 2011
  #58
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mljung's Avatar
I agree with the posts above. All good sounding samples, with what I would call a little extra "bite" on the Gefells.

Maybe a good idea would be to find out how well they handle louder transient sounds with high freq content; percussion, shakers, tambourine, "key jangle test" that sort of thing!

Thanks for the samples Ivo!

::
Mads
Old 15th February 2011
  #59
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Here I made maybe quite interesting set of samples, the same bit of flamenco/classical guitar played on pairs:

Schoeps MK22

Schoeps MK21

Schoeps MK2

Gefell M930

Gefell M950

Gefell M300

What do you think ?

(I put this set, that we made today also to shootout subforum, together with some vocal samples we made on gefells and also Horch).
Old 15th February 2011
  #60
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Here I made maybe quite interesting set of samples, the same bit of flamenco/classical guitar played on pairs:

Schoeps MK22

Schoeps MK21

Schoeps MK2

Gefell M930

Gefell M950

Gefell M300

What do you think ?

(I put this set, that we made today also to shootout subforum, together with some vocal samples we made on gefells and also Horch).
First very quick liz: MK2, M930 and MK21 sounded best to me!
[M300 came out last, too peaky on this guitar]

::
Mads
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