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Sonic Signature of Schoeps CMC6-MK2 and Sennheiser MKH8020 Condenser Microphones
Old 31st December 2010
  #61
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Sonic Signature of Schoeps CMC6-MK2 and Sennheiser MKH8020

For piano recording it all depends on the piano, the room, the pianist, the mics and the repertoire.

Although I normally start off with 20cm spaced omnis at 2m, I have gone closer and further.

I did a Satie CD (John Lenehan, Classic FM Full Works series) mic'd very close. This Is chamber music and it sounds very good played back on loudspeakers in a normal room - intimate, as the composer intended.

For other stuff I go further back.

There are a lot of variables and I play it by ear to get the best position on the day.


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Old 31st December 2010
  #62
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An important last question...

I wonder which mic, Schoeps Mk2 or Senn MKH8020, sounds less strident, more rounded, and slightly darker side of neutral when recording at very close distances, say 2ft from the strings?...
Old 31st December 2010
  #63
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Sonic Signature of Schoeps CMC6-MK2 and Sennheiser MKH8020

Quote:
Originally Posted by 88man
I wonder which mic, Schoeps Mk2 or Senn MKH8020, sounds less strident, more rounded, and slightly darker side of neutral when recording at very close distances, say 2ft from the strings?...
Your choice will depend on the piano and the room as well. ;-)


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Old 31st December 2010
  #64
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Check out the Emil Berliner Studios website http://="www.emil-berliner-studios.c...llkommen.html" for DG setups-- the piano appears to have 800s far and 170s near.

Rich
Old 31st December 2010
  #65
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Thanks John and Sonare. Absolutely, I wouldn't mind a TLM-170 or U89i in the future. For now, I have a multipattern LDC - the AKG C414B-XLS.

I was trying to see if there was a correlation in the varying sensitivities of the 2 mics and perceived forwardness of sound at very close distances. The MK2 is 16mV/Pa) and MKH8020 is 31mV/Pa.

As to the relative brightness/darkness of sound, there are conflicting reports as some say the MKH8020 is darker, warmer, and some say it's sparkly, more transient in the treble. Some say the MK2 has treble sheen and some say that it has a rounder softer and rounder pick up.

I figured if I asked which mic is dark/bright at the very close distance of 2ft, I might uncover what the mic is doing (if anything) by essentially taking the interaction of the room out of the equation. In some instances, the room is far from ideal, but I am still apt to still use an omni for its natural sound characteristics, but at a much closer micing distance. In this situation, I'll still chose a mic that's slightly darker side of neutral to minimize the stridency and forwardness at closer distances.

Thanks
Old 31st December 2010
  #66
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sonare's Avatar
IMO your 414s will not be on the darker side of anything discussed in this thread-- and in a A-B comparison between Mk2 (NO S or H) and 8020 on wind ensemble, the 8020's flatter HF (above 10k) was noticeable. For "close" piano the question is if you want 100% "reveal" (8020) or more the way you would hear it with your ears in the same position. All how I hear it, of course. Up close the off-axis is less a factor-- you are simply interpreting the "tone" of the mics. 414 close-in are the go-to for pop piano sound. IMO if you want dark it won't get any darker than Mk2-- at least without LPEQ.

Rich
Old 1st January 2011
  #67
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88man View Post
I was trying to see if there was a correlation in the varying sensitivities of the 2 mics and perceived forwardness of sound at very close distances. The MK2 is 16mV/Pa) and MKH8020 is 31mV/Pa.
I do not see any reason why the sensitivity level would be correlated to some sound feature.
Old 3rd January 2011
  #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
I do not see any reason why the sensitivity level would be correlated to some sound feature.
Neither do I.


/Peter
Old 4th January 2011
  #69
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I suggest checking out the Sanken CO-100k omnis. Combined with an UpState Audio Sonic Lens preamp, they're pretty awesome-sounding on a Steinway concert grand.

.
Old 4th January 2011
  #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MBishopSFX View Post
I suggest checking out the Sanken CO-100k omnis. Combined with an UpState Audio Sonic Lens preamp, they're pretty awesome-sounding on a Steinway concert grand.

.
CO-100k has fairly strong treble lift. How does that fit with concert grand sound, or have you used it from a distance? Or used some gentle EQ?
Old 4th January 2011
  #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
CO-100k has fairly strong treble lift. How does that fit with concert grand sound, or have you used it from a distance? Or used some gentle EQ?
This writeup addresses that question: SANKEN MICROPHONE CO .,LTD. | User Reports : Details
Old 4th January 2011
  #72
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Petrus View Post
CO-100k has fairly strong treble lift. How does that fit with concert grand sound, or have you used it from a distance? Or used some gentle EQ?
Petrus, note that the lift is mainly above the audible spectrum and that what's left in the audio band can be viewed as a relatively well balanced diffuse field response.

It would be nice to try that mic however I would be concerned about the high noise level.

I'm also curious about the "special mic membrane".. nickel? Titanium?


/Peter
Old 4th January 2011
  #73
Recorded chamber music program recently with lot of pianissimo and silence as part of music, noise is absolutely not an issue with CO100s.

Sorry, can not post any soundfiles due to copyright..

Norm
Old 4th January 2011
  #74
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Did someone compare the CO-100K with more known mics, for instance DPA or Schoeps ?
Old 4th January 2011
  #75
Quote:
Did someone compare the CO-100K with more known mics, for instance DPA
I remember one comparison a while back. If memory serves me right compared to DPA 4006, the CO-100K was a little bit quicker and clearer.

I looks like Mr Bishop was comparing the Sanken to the Sennheiser MKH800 in his writeup (please correct me if I am wrong). I can see how the Sanken could be favorable. Something about the Sennheiser rubs me the wrong way when I listen to it.
Old 5th January 2011
  #76
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Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Recorded chamber music program recently with lot of pianissimo and silence as part of music, noise is absolutely not an issue with CO100s.

Sorry, can not post any soundfiles due to copyright..

Norm
Thanks for input.

I use Earthworks QTC1 which has identical total noise spec's as CO-100k, 22dBA, and often feel it's a limitation.

Switching to MKH8020 with 12dB less noise is a nice experience.


/Peter
Old 5th January 2011
  #77
Gear Head
 

Are the Senn MKH 80XX mics modular like the Schoeps?...
In other words, if I get a Senn MKH8020, can I buy the MKHC 8040 Cardiod Mic Head separately and exchange it on the MZX8000 XLR module from the MKH8020 set? Or is the EQ circuit different...
I can't find the MKHC8040 Mic head sold separately.

I hadn't considered Sanken. I'll look into the Sanken mics... But, at this point, it's going to be either Schoeps or Senn... Leaning more towards the Senn.
Old 5th January 2011
  #78
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 88man View Post
Are the Senn MKH 80XX mics modular like the Schoeps?...
Yes, of a sort. The mic capsule contains the active electronics and the MZX 8000 XLR module, or "body", is nothing but an adapter.

SEPARATES:
Sennheiser MZX 8000 XLR Module for MKH-8000 Capsules MZX8000 B&H
Sennheiser MKHC-8040 Compact Cardioid Capsule MKHC8040 B&H Photo

You can save a little if you already have some XLR modules around.

ALL-IN-ONE:
Sennheiser MKH-8040 Compact Cardioid Condenser MKH8040 B&H Photo

Quote:
Originally Posted by 88man View Post
... at this point, it's going to be either Schoeps or Senn... Leaning more towards the Senn.
It's seems they'll compete well with any mic out there. Schoeps have a sound that's often desired, but I think the Senns are more versatile. I bought my Schoeps before the 80xx series existed and I'd love to put a few 8020s and 8040s into the kit.
Old 5th January 2011
  #79
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I use the 8050 and am wondering if the XLR module can be illiminated
for plugging into a mini XLR input on the Sound Devices, for example,
by using the extension cable and soldering a mini XLR onto it. Is the
XLR module just a a connector with no electronics, or does it modify
the signal in some way?
Old 5th January 2011
  #80
Now we are a bit out of topic, sorry, but...

My CO100s arrived just before Christmas and so far I did only one session with them mentioned above. I will record clarinet+piano duo in early February and I'll place 8020s on the same stereo bar for comparison.

Norm
Old 5th January 2011
  #81
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
I use the 8050 and am wondering if the XLR module can be illiminated
for plugging into a mini XLR input on the Sound Devices, for example,
by using the extension cable and soldering a mini XLR onto it. Is the
XLR module just a a connector with no electronics, or does it modify
the signal in some way?
A connector with no electronics inside = no modification or processing to the signal.


/Peter
Old 5th January 2011
  #82
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by [email protected] View Post
Now we are a bit out of topic, sorry, but...

My CO100s arrived just before Christmas and so far I did only one session with them mentioned above. I will record clarinet+piano duo in early February and I'll place 8020s on the same stereo bar for comparison.

Norm
Great!
Old 6th January 2011
  #83
Gear Head
 

Thanks Micheal. Wow! $1000 per capsule?! That's inhibitive. One's better off buying the MkH8040 Stereo kit for $150 more.
Old 6th January 2011
  #84
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Back to the original post about sonic signatures of the mkh vs mk series. I can sum it up as both are outstanding mics. I own both a pair of mk4's and 8040's. There are situations where one is clearly better than another. My original plan was to sell the mk4's after hearing the 8040's. But lately there have been halls where I prefer the Schoeps. I didn't plan on owning and investing in 2 pairs of ORTF mains, but somehow can't part with either of them.
Old 6th January 2011
  #85
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don S View Post
Back to the original post about sonic signatures of the mkh vs mk series. I can sum it up as both are outstanding mics. I own both a pair of mk4's and 8040's. There are situations where one is clearly better than another. My original plan was to sell the mk4's after hearing the 8040's. But lately there have been halls where I prefer the Schoeps. I didn't plan on owning and investing in 2 pairs of ORTF mains, but somehow can't part with either of them.
heh Schoeps will do that to you. They're one condenser I can use up closer because they have a kind of softening that often sounds great.
Old 7th January 2011
  #86
Gear Head
 

DonS:
Quote:
There are situations where one is clearly better than another. My original plan was to sell the mk4's after hearing the 8040's. But lately there have been halls where I prefer the Schoeps. I didn't plan on owning and investing in 2 pairs of ORTF mains, but somehow can't part with either of them.
Michael Patrick:
Quote:
Schoeps will do that to you. They're one condenser I can can use up closer because they have a kind of softening that often sounds great.
BINGO! I thought there was a perceived difference in sound at closer distances as I stated earlier. I was trying to read into the different sensitivity values... As arguments can be made for membrane sensitivity/thickness/resonance characteristics, I assumed that the lower sensitivity of the Schoeps might produce a rounder or softer sound, and perhaps the Sennheiser might produce a slightly more forward or sparkly timbre. In any case the sensitivity argument is not important, it's the perceived sound that I am after in these 2 mics at close distances.

Dare I say, could a rounder or softer sound might make for a smoother sound when micing closely to the source?... Or perhaps even take away a tiny amount of digital edge in a recording?...

Thanks DonS and Michael Patrick
Old 7th January 2011
  #87
Quote:
I assumed that the lower sensitivity of the Schoeps might produce a rounder or softer sound compared with a slightly more forward or sparkly timbre of the Sennheiser. In any case the sensitivity argument is not important, it's the perceived sound that I am after in these 2 mics at close distances.

Dare I say, could a rounder or softer sound might make for a smoother sound when micing closely to the source?... Or perhaps even take away a tiny amount of digital edge in a recording?...
Well, it has absolutely nothing to do with "sensitivity", that is just the output level of the mic. It is simply a matter of capsule, body, and circuitry design.

Instruments just sound closer with the Schoeps, most likely just the combination of on and off axis responses in a real world setting.
Old 7th January 2011
  #88
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Sonic Signature of Schoeps CMC6-MK2 and Sennheiser MKH8020

Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu
I use the 8050 and am wondering if the XLR module can be illiminated
for plugging into a mini XLR input on the Sound Devices, for example,
by using the extension cable and soldering a mini XLR onto it. Is the
XLR module just a a connector with no electronics, or does it modify
the signal in some way?
There are no electronics at all in the XLR module. Just buy a remote cable, cut the far end connector off and solder on a mini XLR.

Sent from my iPhone using Gearslutz
Old 10th January 2011
  #89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
Instruments just sound closer with the Schoeps, most likely just the combination of on and off axis responses in a real world setting.
Almost anything is a possible reason. I would mention the very thin and very fast diaphragms of the Sennheiser 80xx series, which is more apparent on some sources than others-for example, piano.

I have noticed that very fast mic's often seem just a little further away, and subjectively softer and rounder. If one has material that has been mic'd with pairs of mic's of similar patterns in pretty much the same position-a pair having a significantly faster transient response will sound softer than the other when peak levels are matched. And the RMS level will be lower. A slower and/or larger mic will sometimes function as a sort of "compressor."

Just one more bit of conjecture.
Old 10th January 2011
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JEGG View Post
If one has material that has been mic'd with pairs of mic's of similar patterns in pretty much the same position-a pair having a significantly faster transient response will sound softer than the other when peak levels are matched. And the RMS level will be lower.

Hi JEGG!

In these situations, have you done an actual frequency response measurement/comparison of named mic's?

To me it sounds like one mic has a bump in the frequency response in a range where some instruments has a lot of energy in it's attack. My guess is that equalized for same response you would not see this difference in peak vs. RMS level.


/Peter
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