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DPA 4006 vs Schoeps MK2 - samples Condenser Microphones
Old 24th October 2017
  #211
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Well the hammer hitting a string is only part of the story (and the spl generator !) Try doing that to a steel string in free, unenclosed air and see if you stand a chance of scaring an ant.

Put that same string in proximity of a sounding board and a lid and an enclosing body or chamber (same goes for a guitar on a smaller scale) and immediately you have multiple reflections off surfaces which lend amplitude to the hit (or pluck)

If we're talking inches away from several of these boundaries or cavities/resonating chambers and invoking an inverse square law for amplitude dissipation, then 130dB doesn't seem unrealistic.

It also seems like no place to put a microphone with any hope of generating a 'realistic' audio picture of a piano in a room or hall....but then we're talking raw, near-vertical transient spike percussion here, after all ...yes ?
Old 24th October 2017
  #212
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boojum's Avatar
FWIW the DPA 4061 is designed to be attached to the structure of the inside of the piano. DPA says it can handle 144 dB and I believe them. I have used them and never have had one clip. I also doubt that I ever recorded anything near that loud.

Last edited by boojum; 25th October 2017 at 07:11 AM.. Reason: spelling
Old 24th October 2017
  #213
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Some years back, I had to record a starter gun shot to add the effect to an opera I was producing. It was in the same concert hall, same stage as the rest of the opera was recorded. All I could remember was that it was overloading the system with all the gain trim turned to as low as they go. I had no idea how loud the gun shot really was in terms of SPL in the hall but it was loud. However, I did stick a sound meter in front of my mouth and yelled at it; it was over 120dB. Say it was about 5 inches between the mic and my vocal box. My point is things can get loud quickly if the distance is short.
Old 25th October 2017
  #214
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Plush's Avatar
None of it matters because sane people working on real productions don’t work the way that one needs 130dB+ capability.

Shouting at 120dB?
Old 27th October 2017
  #215
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
Here a great little article talking about Michael Bishop ands his use of ribbons:
Michael Bishop Uses Royer Microphones To Win 10th Grammy - ProSoundWeb
Yes, The Lark Ascending sounds absolutely beautiful on that recording.

But I miss the airy top end, open, deep bass of condensers on the full orchestra. All ribbons strike me as a bit "midrangy" as times and a bit veiled.

But for near field use and other applications, I understand where you are coming from. Ribbons on strings do sound silky and don't pick up as much "bow hair on metal string sound" as condensers do.
Old 27th October 2017
  #216
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jnorman's Avatar
Shosty- I agree. Ribbons are the perfect near field tool for many instruments, but as you near the diffuse field, condensers really start to shine.
Old 31st October 2017
  #217
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ISedlacek's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
I can't help - over the years I have tried so many possible microphones, wanted to get something yet better than Schoeps or the same good, but I always end at MK2 for acoustic instruments ... Simply perfect, full natural, detailed sound. Even other Schoeps capsules (I have MK21 and MK22) I don't almost use. Whatever I try and compare, MK2 sounds somehow always better. I tried some ribbons too ... The sound is good (especially Samar), but with soft, delicate acoustic instruments, the noise issue comes quickly on the surface.

Should you be interested, here is for example a recent recording on Schoeps MK2 (with Rens Hejnis mode) brought in the form of a video (with Forssell SMP-2 preamp and MADA-2 converter)



or a studio video (again MK2)

Old 31st October 2017
  #218
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Ivo, I would be interested to know how you recorded Autumn Dreams, including the 'Foley' recording of the footsteps. And lovely music too. Kudos!
Old 31st October 2017
  #219
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ISedlacek's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
Ivo, I would be interested to know how you recorded Autumn Dreams, including the 'Foley' recording of the footsteps. And lovely music too. Kudos!
Well - Schoeps MK2 AB position for both instruments (recorded separately -hang drum first and then violins to it ...). Footsteps - just Canon 5D camera mic
Old 31st October 2017
  #220
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Well - Schoeps MK2 AB position for both instruments (recorded separately -hang drum first and then violins to it ...). Footsteps - just Canon 5D camera mic
Thank you. But were the violin and handpan recorded 'open-air'? And if so, did you have blimps on them...or what?
Old 31st October 2017
  #221
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ISedlacek's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjazzdad View Post
Thank you. But were the violin and handpan recorded 'open-air'? And if so, did you have blimps on them...or what?
No, the music recorded only the studio ... nothing outside (the intention of the video was not a kind of live performance)
Old 31st October 2017
  #222
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Ah. I thought as much. Well done though - very nice, evocative video.
Old 1st November 2017
  #223
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whippoorwill's Avatar
Very nice video and music Ivo, the violin attack detail is a tad much, and it could sit back a little, level-wise, compared to the hang.
These are minor notes (and what do I know?), this is excellent and relaxing stuff with some interesting digressions into strange tonalities. That is very refreshing in the context of relaxed music.
Old 1st November 2017
  #224
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Plush's Avatar
Only the Schoeps MK2 could produce this sound. DPA would have sounded more metallic. Highly undesirable.

Thank you, Ivo.
Old 1st November 2017
  #225
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Nice Ivo !
What is this violin ?
Old 1st November 2017
  #226
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ISedlacek's Avatar
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mathieujm View Post
Nice Ivo !
What is this violin ?
Well, these are my special "astral" violins with 5 playing strings (combining violin and viola) and a number of sympathetic strings that give the instruments very impressive 3D sound with "reverb". I cannot pla a normal violin any more, feels like a small Chinese toy to me comparing to it + I have to "milk" it a lot to produce a sound + sounds very dry :D (although I studied it professionally, played my whole life and I own 2 very great violins



more info: http://www.ivosedlacek.com
Old 2nd November 2017
  #227
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jnorman's Avatar
Ivo - as usual, very nice work, and I assume you wrote that interesting little piece. If you don’t mind, I would be interested in hearing about what kind of reverb you used, type, settings, etc. it is an evocative sounding space. Thanks.
Old 5th November 2017
  #228
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ISedlacek's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
Ivo - as usual, very nice work, and I assume you wrote that interesting little piece. If you don’t mind, I would be interested in hearing about what kind of reverb you used, type, settings, etc. it is an evocative sounding space. Thanks.
Thank you. Well, it is not really "written" - just improvised ... Reverb - Lexicon Random Hall about 3,5 sec.
Old 6th November 2017
  #229
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Only the Schoeps MK2 could produce this sound. DPA would have sounded more metallic. Highly undesirable.

Thank you, Ivo.
I don't know why the 4006 would produce a highly undesirable sound, just use the trapezium grids or use a good tone control and your ears to decide where and how much to cut.
Old 10th November 2017
  #230
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Love it. What I notice is the beautiful capturing of the timbral complexity of the instruments, especially the violin.
Old 11th November 2017
  #231
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tourtelot's Avatar
Funny that after all these years, I am currently in love with the 4006 mics with the free-field grids and the 40mm APE for large ensembles. I have the Mk2 Schoeps as well and , right now, really dig the sound of the DPAs. Just the prettiest girl in the room right now. Could go back to the Schoeps at any moment.

BTW, anyone heard the Naxos Rachmaninoff All-night Vigil, Op.37.

Engineered and mastered by a man named Keith Johnson. Nice job. Is Keith on the blog? I'd love to hear the story of this recording.

Check it out if you can.

D.
Old 11th November 2017
  #232
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tourtelot's Avatar
Old 11th November 2017
  #233
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jnorman's Avatar
Thanks Doug - interesting article.
Old 20th November 2017
  #234
Quote:
Originally Posted by tourtelot View Post
Funny that after all these years, I am currently in love with the 4006 mics with the free-field grids and the 40mm APE for large ensembles.
Something beautiful happens with the 40mm APEs, I totally agree and also like to use them a lot. The 50mm APEs, however, just don't work well for me, even though it is not such a big difference in size. Did you choose the smaller ones after auditioning both?

Best,
Dirk
Old 23rd November 2017
  #235
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tourtelot's Avatar
I have both but I never use the 50mm APE. The 40mm balls work so well. I imagine that I'll put the 50mm balls up for sale in the near future. PM if anyone wants them at a good price.

D.
Old 28th November 2017
  #236
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Interesting to read how other people view the sound of the DPA 4006a...

When I choose between that mic, the Schoeps MK and the Sennheiser MKH20 as main mics, I consider the acoustics, the instruments and their particular sound. Personally I most often use the DPA because they give me the most uncoloured sound (to my ears). The Schoeps add some (not umpleasant midrange colour) and the Sennheiser are relatively dark sounding, but both have their merits as well.

All in all, I cannot really understand the term "harsh" with regard to the 4006a, but I agree that their ultra transparent character can be problematic in certain acoustics and with certain musicians... When I hear the term "harsh" I would more readily think of many Neumann mics that have spoiled so many stringquartet recordings. Just my 2 cents, of course.
Old 28th November 2017
  #237
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jnorman's Avatar
Lucas - I have owned pairs of DPA 4006s and 4011s, Schoeps cmc64s and cmc62s, Sennheiser mkh40s and mkh20s, and while I like all those mics, I still find myself enjoying the Neumann sound as much as any condensers I have used. You accuse Neumann of the same “fault” that you are defending for DPA - it is all a matter of opinion and personal taste, and they are all quite capable of producing the highest quality in professional recording. It is quite dependent on the instruments and the situation as to which of those mics might be the best choice.
Old 29th November 2017
  #238
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Plush's Avatar
The sub-standard electronics inside the DPA 4006 must be the culprit that makes the DPA sound pointed, sharp, and strident in too many acoustics. The cheap electronics have been identified by Rens Heijnis as the root cause of the problem.
When Rens replaces the DPA electronics with his own design circuit board, the problems with the "DPA sound" go away.

Certainly it is NOT the Bruel & Kjaer manufactured 4006 capsule that is the problem.

The current top of the line Neumann which is 170, U89, KM 100 series, KMD digital mics, 149, KMA series are all excellent. An incredible sparkle-y sound.
Old 29th November 2017
  #239
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
The current top of the line Neumann which is 170, U89, KM 100 series, KMD digital mics, 149, KMA series are all excellent. An incredible sparkle-y sound.
I wouldn't call the U89 sparkle-y, in fact just the opposite...but that is it's charm and strong-suit, and why I like it !
Old 29th November 2017
  #240
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
Lucas - I have owned pairs of DPA 4006s and 4011s, Schoeps cmc64s and cmc62s, Sennheiser mkh40s and mkh20s, and while I like all those mics, I still find myself enjoying the Neumann sound as much as any condensers I have used. You accuse Neumann of the same “fault” that you are defending for DPA - it is all a matter of opinion and personal taste, and they are all quite capable of producing the highest quality in professional recording. It is quite dependent on the instruments and the situation as to which of those mics might be the best choice.
Hi Norman,

You are probably right. My experiences with Neumann were not optimal. I sold most of them, because I didn't like the added HF boost present on them. The TLM103 was extremely strident. However, I have not owned the best (and most expensive) ones, so probalbly they are another story...

I was referring to some well-known stringquartet recordings of the past, where Neumann LDC's were used that exhibited a very strident treble which makes listening a real pain. Those experiences have made me somewhat biased towards Neumann.

Last edited by Lucas_G; 29th November 2017 at 01:18 PM..
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