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VIDEO. String quartet. OMNI Schopes over head ?
Old 31st August 2010
  #1
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Talking VIDEO. String quartet. OMNI Schopes over head ?

I dont understand why over head of violins are OMNI capsule and not caridioid. 4 omini in a 3 meter of range ?











The album, MENDELSSOHN: THE COMPLETE STRING QUARTETS went on to win 2 Grammy Awards, including Best Chamber Music Performance and Best Engineered Album for producer Da-Hong Seetoo (featured).
Old 31st August 2010
  #2
And don't forget Part II - it's a little more melodramatic.

Old 31st August 2010
  #3
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Giacomo,
For the sound quality. They are spot or supporting mics. Cardioid will sound too dry and harsh and not blend well into the main pair. You're thinking separation or isolation is better, but tone is more important.

I've used Schoeps and other omni's as spot mics for classical music with great success.

Mike
Old 31st August 2010
  #4
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Thanks Mike..and a section of an orchestra (es horn, or percussion), how is micing ?

One omni for section or ORTF/NOS cardioid for section ?

Panning stereo channel (orft/nos) for place the section in his position (example at 25° left) its a good thing ?
Old 31st August 2010
  #5
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Giacomo,
That's a completely different animal. This is string chamber music with 1 mic per player for support. I would not suggest 1 mic for a brass section. Possibly no mics since brass can overtake an entire orchestra with ease, however, it may be fine to have an ortf pair for all winds.. or even some more to cover each section.

For string chamber music, close miking with omni is not a bad thing

Mike
Old 31st August 2010
  #6
Thanks for sharing Giacomo.

Omni's make good spot mic's when you want the spots to blend well with the mains (and other spots). Isolation isn't the issue - it's more a matter of being able to reach for something and get a little more bite. Using an omni will sound less claustrophobic and more "warm" than a cardioid in this application (I hate that term, but here it applies), but will still capture the brilliance and detail that is present in the direct field.

The cardioid is only really "blind" behind the microphone.

If anyone is curious about the venue, that is the Academy of Arts and Letters in NYC - probably one of the best natural acoustic spaces we have here.

Interesting concept overall - especially the new vs. old instrument aspect of it. I know there is the theory that the old Italian instruments sound the way they do because of the nature of the wood that was available of the time. I don't know this other builder they mention - I wonder where he is getting his materials from. Simply copying the design wouldn't completely capture the sound of the instrument.

The artists seem to refrain from sharing their own thoughts on how the instruments compare.

Great players, great acoustics, great equipment, great ears and knowledge on the technical side, and a couple of Grammy's to boot. Sounds like all the ingredients are there. Makes me curious about the CD's - I'll have to check them out.
Old 31st August 2010
  #7
"...this is really cutting edge on the technology end. It's pushing, um, the maximum of what computers can to in terms of audio recording" (shot of a MOTU rig)
Old 31st August 2010
  #8
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Thank you an dvery compliments for your portfolio. Another question: small or large diaframm ?

I've note wich in decca tree many people mount large diafram mic.

Or in a quartet string ad example, cello large diafram (u87), violin small diaframm (km, schoeps etc..).




Quote:
Originally Posted by RobAnderson View Post
Thanks for sharing Giacomo.

Omni's make good spot mic's when you want the spots to blend well with the mains (and other spots). Isolation isn't the issue - it's more a matter of being able to reach for something and get a little more bite. Using an omni will sound less claustrophobic and more "warm" than a cardioid in this application (I hate that term, but here it applies), but will still capture the brilliance and detail that is present in the direct field.

The cardioid is only really "blind" behind the microphone.

If anyone is curious about the venue, that is the Academy of Arts and Letters in NYC - probably one of the best natural acoustic spaces we have here.

Interesting concept overall - especially the new vs. old instrument aspect of it. I know there is the theory that the old Italian instruments sound the way they do because of the nature of the wood that was available of the time. I don't know this other builder they mention - I wonder where he is getting his materials from. Simply copying the design wouldn't completely capture the sound of the instrument.

The artists seem to refrain from sharing their own thoughts on how the instruments compare.

Great players, great acoustics, great equipment, great ears and knowledge on the technical side, and a couple of Grammy's to boot. Sounds like all the ingredients are there. Makes me curious about the CD's - I'll have to check them out.
Old 31st August 2010
  #9
Quote:
I've note wich in decca tree many people mount large diafram mic.

Or in a quartet string ad example, cello large diafram (u87), violin small diaframm (km, schoeps etc..).
Completely depends on the mic and the situation. Decca trees traditionally used the Neumann M50 large diaphragm mic, but DPA's and other small mics are frequently used now with pressure balls.

For certain, SD mics usually have the edge on distance miking. But close up, the sound and color of the mic is the factor, not the size.
Old 31st August 2010
  #10
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Maybe SD for single instruments and large for room/ambience ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
Completely depends on the mic and the situation. Decca trees traditionally used the Neumann M50 large diaphragm mic, but DPA's and other small mics are frequently used now with pressure balls.

For certain, SD mics usually have the edge on distance miking. But close up, the sound and color of the mic is the factor, not the size.
Old 31st August 2010
  #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
Completely depends on the mic and the situation. Decca trees traditionally used the Neumann M50 large diaphragm mic, but DPA's and other small mics are frequently used now with pressure balls.
There are lots of threads on this forum regarding decca trees, try a search, Giacomo! You'll find plenty of info, I think.

P.S, the M50 isn't really a large diaphragm mic, no? From what I recall it uses a 4 cm diaphragm made from PVC/Aluminium/Mylar, which is mounted on the characteristic sphere that makes for its particular acoustical properties. I may be wrong about the exact size of the diaphragm, I'm no expert.
Old 31st August 2010
  #12
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Yes, but Im not interested at decca tree, but an a general opinion. (not guide, but opionions, real experiences)
Old 1st September 2010
  #13
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On a side note, I was fascinated by the book by John Marchese about the newer instruments. It's a good read and as a instrument maker myself (non-violin), I really dig the time and effort it takes to make excellence in that industry - complete opposite of the throw-away society in which we reside these days.
Amazon.com: The Violin Maker: Finding a Centuries-Old Tradition in a Brooklyn Workshop (9780060012670): John Marchese: Books

And for you who like hollywood portrayals of real life, The Red Violin...
Old 1st September 2010
  #14
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesH View Post
There are lots of threads on this forum regarding decca trees, try a search, Giacomo! You'll find plenty of info, I think.

P.S, the M50 isn't really a large diaphragm mic, no? From what I recall it uses a 4 cm diaphragm made from PVC/Aluminium/Mylar, which is mounted on the characteristic sphere that makes for its particular acoustical properties. I may be wrong about the exact size of the diaphragm, I'm no expert.
The M50s were all small diaphragm mics, using an equivalent of what later would be the KK83 (21mm?) capsule, mounted in a sphere (which was about 4cm in diameter).

Best,
Dirk
Old 1st September 2010
  #15
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Another understand setup.

A-B + ORTF (or NOS) + CLOSE MIC ?




Old 2nd September 2010
  #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
"...this is really cutting edge on the technology end. It's pushing, um, the maximum of what computers can to in terms of audio recording" (shot of a MOTU rig)
heh funny stuff!
Old 2nd September 2010
  #17
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Motu as "cutting edge on the technology end"? No, but on the other hand, the music sounds very good. As always, hall, fine musicians, right mic placement and good ears are much more important. That's what those samples show pretty well, I think.
Old 2nd September 2010
  #18
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Guys, reading:


The album, MENDELSSOHN: THE COMPLETE STRING QUARTETS went on to win 2 Grammy Awards, including Best Chamber Music Performance and Best Engineered Album for producer Da-Hong Seetoo (featured).
Old 3rd September 2010
  #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
"...this is really cutting edge on the technology end. It's pushing, um, the maximum of what computers can to in terms of audio recording" (shot of a MOTU rig)
Hi All,

I agree - omni spots in chamber music recordings almost always sound better to me. Remember that they are often the most natural polar pattern in terms of frequency response as well. Figure-8 is the next most useful and cardiod last - at least most of the time IME. There are certain applications for cardiod where it serves better to my ear (percussion spots come to mind).

FWIW, in addition to being a very fine producer and engineer, Da-Hong can mod just about anything. His Motu rig, speakers and much of the rest of the rig has been 'tweaked' by his own hands.

-Silas
Old 3rd September 2010
  #20
Quote:
FWIW, in addition to being a very fine producer and engineer, Da-Hong can mod just about anything. His Motu rig, speakers and much of the rest of the rig has been 'tweaked' by his own hands.
MOTU makes decent products, tweaked or not, and of course there are many more important things in the chain than the interface, I just thought the remarks of the violinist were rather comical. The recording is really no different than what most people do on a daily basis. Nothing revolutionary about it, and certainly not pushing the limits of computer technology in terms of channel counts and fidelity.
Old 4th September 2010
  #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GIACOMO-_ View Post
Another understand setup.
A-B + ORTF (or NOS) + CLOSE MIC ?
Help me with this. I see what appears to be two omni flankers up high, stage left and right, on the lip. Is the spaced array, ORTF, NOS or whatever, in the back?? A very interesting solution if it is. It eliminates sight line problems and if this is the setup that won the awards, it gets the sound, too.

Any comments??
Old 4th September 2010
  #22
Quote:
Help me with this. I see what appears to be two omni flankers up high, stage left and right, on the lip. Is the spaced array, ORTF, NOS or whatever, in the back?? A very interesting solution if it is. It eliminates sight line problems and if this is the setup that won the awards, it gets the sound, too.
It looks to be another AB closer spaced pair. Probably placed in the back to protect the conductors ego . I didn't like the sound of the recording personally, no center stage at all. One of those situations where they should have taken the extra time to hang mics to have the main pair in the front.
Old 5th September 2010
  #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
Completely depends on the mic and the situation. Decca trees traditionally used the Neumann M50 large diaphragm mic, but DPA's and other small mics are frequently used now with pressure balls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonesH View Post
P.S, the M50 isn't really a large diaphragm mic, no? From what I recall it uses a 4 cm diaphragm made from PVC/Aluminium/Mylar, which is mounted on the characteristic sphere that makes for its particular acoustical properties. I may be wrong about the exact size of the diaphragm, I'm no expert.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtf View Post
The M50s were all small diaphragm mics, using an equivalent of what later would be the KK83 (21mm?) capsule, mounted in a sphere (which was about 4cm in diameter).
Getting warmer all the time. The M50 is a 12mm diaphragm, (so it's a small diaphragm mic), on a 40mm diameter plastic sphere.
Old 5th September 2010
  #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
It looks to be another AB closer spaced pair. Probably placed in the back to protect the conductors ego . I didn't like the sound of the recording personally, no center stage at all. One of those situations where they should have taken the extra time to hang mics to have the main pair in the front.
Dan, is what you are saying is that it is not good to mic from behind and above even if a good spot can be had? It seems an elegant solution to sight line problems. If the distances are right it could be possible to do the Eargle center ORTF with omni flankers this way. It has piqued my interest.

Anything you can suggest would be a help.

Thanks
Old 5th September 2010
  #25
Quote:
The M50 is a 12mm diaphragm
It is definitely larger than 12mm, did you mean 21mm? Yes the sphere is 40mm.

Quote:
Dan, is what you are saying is that it is not good to mic from behind and above even if a good spot can be had? It seems an elegant solution to sight line problems. If the distances are right it could be possible to do the Eargle center ORTF with omni flankers this way. It has piqued my interest.
I can see a few problems with it. First the front to back balance would be backwards, second the projection of an orchestra or any chamber group is aimed forward, and the best you would achieve is a mishmash of shell reflection and back row instruments overtaking the direct sound. I have tried spaced omnis hung about halfway into the string section of an orchestra once, and the results were barely adequate.

By the sound of the recording though, I am willing to bet the "main" pair was the widely spaced omnis and the engineer tried to compensate with spots and this back placed pair. It still sounded to me like there was a large hole in the center of the sound stage.
Old 5th September 2010
  #26
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
It is definitely larger than 12mm, did you mean 21mm? Yes the sphere is 40mm.
No it's 12mm. Read the acoustic properties on this page.
Georg Neumann GmbH - Products/Current Microphones/M 150 Tube/Description

It's about the M150, but the capsule config is the same as the M50.
Old 5th September 2010
  #27
If we're talking about the Russians, there's a hole in the middle because there is a hole in the middle - they appear to me to be sitting in four discrete sections. Vn1 and Vn2 on the left and Vla and VnClo/Bass on the right. You can see corridors between the seating globs at various times in the vid - Although the inner voices are in the middle and you can hear the motif on the left, the continuo on the right and the scrubbing descant in the middle, Vn2 are leaning in to the left and the Violas are leaning in to the right - leaving a softer sound in the middle.

I can't agree with the shell reflection/overtaking thing. In a full orchestra, a backline forward-facing pair would be collecting horns on the left, percs beneath and brass on the right, which is balanced and time shifted as necessaryl. A fixed or motorised shell on wheels does emphasize what's happening in the back rows - but it causes the sounds to be more closely coincident with the front rows' - the velocity can't increase, it's just presented at a level we're not normally expecting - to the french horn section's delight and glee.

Concert recordings can't be often be mic'd for best sound, the thicket of stands & cables get in the way too much, so rear over-reachers are a useful compromise in my video-centric world.
BRgds
WalterT
Old 3rd October 2010
  #28
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Ok, I have capure many video's photograms.

In a interwiev Seetoo say:


How do you make the recordings?

Seetoo: " I string two rows of three microphones equally spaced across the stage - one string in front of the stage and one close to the middle of the stage. Every performer ends up with a microphone close to them, yet I get good spacing of the stage. These are wired to the hard drive of a computer and I can adjust balances after the concert is over. It's very possible that in the mixing I'll only use two microphones to preserve the recording. When I record the performances at Music at Menlo at St. Marks Episcopal Church in Palo Alto, I set up my recording studio in the nursery and do the editing with speakers, not earphones. I use Schoeps omnidirectional microphones and modify the electronics in the microphones myself. The modifications improve the signal to noise ratio, and increase the bandwidth."


"I used four Schoeps MK2H omni [microphone] heads on bodies of my own design in a square arrangement in the middle of the Quartet, about 70" from the musicians, going straight to hard drive at 24-bits/44.1kHz. I burned CDs for the Quartet from each day's performances. I edited the sessions using Sound Designs software."


Attachment # 01
6 MIC + 2 ROOM ?

Attachment # 02
NO, MAYBE 4 ROOM MICS ? OR 6 ?

Attachment # 03
3 OMNI MIC SPACING 1,5m EACH ?

Attachment # 04
CELLO OVER A LITTLE STAGE. MAYBE FOR BASS FREQUENCIES REFLECTIONS ?

Attachment # 05
70" ?

Attachment # 06
14 MIC CHANNELL ? (AS IT SAY IN THE VIDEO)

Attachment # 07
ROOM MIC SPACING 1m ?

Attachment # 08
SEE CENTRAL MIC. THERE ARE 2 MIC. IS AN M/S TECHNIQUE OR NOT ?




------------------------------------------------------------------


TOTAL 14 MIC.

- 3 ROW x 2 = 6

- 2 mc adding on center

Tot: 8.

Remain 6 mic for room.


Please posting yours impression for all the one wich you can see in the pics.
Attached Thumbnails
VIDEO. String quartet. OMNI Schopes over head ?-01seetoo4.jpg   VIDEO. String quartet. OMNI Schopes over head ?-02seetoo01.jpg   VIDEO. String quartet. OMNI Schopes over head ?-03seetoo14.jpg   VIDEO. String quartet. OMNI Schopes over head ?-04seetoo13.jpg   VIDEO. String quartet. OMNI Schopes over head ?-05seetoo12.jpg  

VIDEO. String quartet. OMNI Schopes over head ?-06seetoo10.jpg   VIDEO. String quartet. OMNI Schopes over head ?-07seetoo3.jpg   VIDEO. String quartet. OMNI Schopes over head ?-08seetoo2.jpg  
Old 4th October 2010
  #29
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those schoeps must be lacking if both polyhymnia and Mr Seetoo see fit to mod them.

heh
Old 4th October 2010
  #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Teddy Ray View Post
those schoeps must be lacking if both polyhymnia and Mr Seetoo see fit to mod them.heh
They'll show Schoeps how microphones should be made.
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