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Live Zeppelin is bad... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 16th June 2004
  #61
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Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Cole
Either you are a much superior musician then me, or you think as I do, that Page just mucked his way through that one. heh
Well then, he "mucks" his way through multiple passes, more than once in the song and with john paul jones right with him.

Pretty good "mucking".

I also like how he "mucks" up the meter just before the guitar solo in STH. so much so he had to teach Bonzo how to count it.

And all the time changes on "Houses Of The Holy"

Page was an orchestrator, and imo, a pretty brilliant one working in a field and at a time where that was a difficult thing to do.

Drop tunings, interesting combinations of sounds and yes, the often sloppy performances were all Page trademarks.

But Page came out of the session world, saw what could be done using the studio and set out, with a strong vision, to create the brand "zeppelin". Branding is all the rage these days, but Page understood it back then.

I think we all take Zep for granted, these days, but I recall the first Zep album landing on my record player in 1969 and as a twelve year old, was fully hooked.
Old 16th June 2004
  #62
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What I find amusing is the concept that someone would listen to "Every Breath..." and go "what a terrible drummer"!
Old 16th June 2004
  #63
LTA
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Quote:
Originally posted by toledo3
What I find amusing is the concept that someone would listen to "Every Breath..." and go "what a terrible drummer"!
Heh, i didn't want to say that. But i can second that statement.

(Don't get me started on Cream)
Old 16th June 2004
  #64
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Quote:
Originally posted by toledo3
doorknocker- Kravitz is a rip-off, of ZZ Top? Ever listen to John Lee Hooker's Boogie Chillen', then put on La Grange? I think that panning music b/c you think it's derivative is lame.... everything is derivative.
'La Grange' is great precisely because ZZ Top took a common boogie riff (that's been around long before even J. L Hooker) and made it their own, with Kravitz I always wish I'd be listening to the source he's quoting. I remember being in a club and hearing a piano intro thinking it's 'Imagine' just as the progression took a slight turn for Mr. Kravitz' entry.
That's what I wanted to imply with the 'mediocre composeres borrow, great composers steal' quote.
Zeppelin would be a good example in the 'steal' category, they created something new out of 'raw' material: blues, folk melodies that've been around for centuries (Gallow's Pole), west coast psychedelia, Elvis at Sun, etc.
Eric Clapton's guitar playing would be another (positive) example, basically every lick he ever played can be traced back to its origins but the delivery and impact of the phrasing/expression is so strong that it comes out as sounding original.

Andi
Old 16th June 2004
  #65
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Quote:
Originally posted by loudist
When the levee breaks... is it swingin' ?
That drum sound is 2 shotgun mics on a landing about 20 feet from the drums which were in the entrance hall.
Don't get me started! . By the way, there's a very interesting essay by the late critic Robert Palmer (not the singer) on the Zeppelin 4-CD box set where he talks about the impact of Bonham and especially 'WTLB': Back in the day, Zeppelin were accused as being 'too heavy', 'not swinging', etc.- fast forward 15 years or so and something like 'WTLB' is a prime base for hip-hop (much in the same way as James Brown's 'Funky drummer'.) Suddendly everybody realizes that Bonzo is swinging like mad.
Some people still don't get it,the thing about Zeppelin's odd meter/phrase stuff is that is sounds completely natural, you never get the 'watch us do something fancy now' syndrom.

Andi
Old 16th June 2004
  #66
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Quote:
Originally posted by loudist
H e h e h, everything Bonzo played swung (swang? swinged?)
Its one of the keys to memorable playing... swing.
Joe,
If you don't like Page, cool, thats your perogative, but don't try to drag the cat down because in all honesty, its you that ends up looking bad.
I agree with you on the Bonzo part, whole heartedly. As for Page, I suppose it is time I get off my soapbox. There are just too many devotees that will disagree with me.

Legendary band. Great rhythm section, great orchestration. That I totally agree with.


No harm no foul.
Old 16th June 2004
  #67
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Live Zeppelin is bad...

Quote:
Originally posted by toledo3
Oh yeah, what friends- name names... sounds like B.S to me grudge
Sorry I'm not going there. Like I mentioned earlier I know Gerado Velez who played with Hendrix at woodstock, he however has never said anything about MM. Mitch has sat in around NY in the past, people I know played with him, thats all. Frankly I think his recorded work speaks for itself, and not in a real positive light. But if you think he's great, well thats what makes the world go round.
Old 16th June 2004
  #68
Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Cole
Loudist,

I dig a lot of the guys you mentioned.

Beck is a real favorite, Hendrix (Watchtower is a favorite), Clapton, Eric Johnson, Gatton, guys from Hellicatsters, Satriani, Gary Moore, Carlton, Lukathar, Robben Ford, Landau, SRV, Holdsworth, Stern, Scofield, Don Ross, Tuck Andress, Edge, Johnny Marr, Robert Smith, Townshed the list goes on.

Do not misinterpret me, I love music that is all feel. I do not look for perfection, but I do look for someone trying to honestly express themselves. I do not feel that honesty in Page.

As well, I really enjoy and appreciate a musician that can pick up a guitar, "kinda" tune it and just make music. Page does not strike me as this kinda guy. He strikes me as a good loop maker (three notes, then stop, cut/paste- they did it with tape to!).

He strikes me as a good producer, and as a person who at the time could gauge what the masses wanted to hear and borrowed what he needed. He knows how to make a package that will be well received. Cute blonde singer, big chorus etc.

He is just not my brand of rock guitarist.

It just smacks of political correctness to say that all guitarists love Page.
I think page is a guy who really shows how drugs and booze can effect
your playing negatively. On the first zep record his playing is pretty clean
and very imaginative. At the time those stock licks weren't stock. Unfortunately live the guy was too hammered to execute those ideas, at least on the dvd. As time goes on with zep I think you see he's still got ideas
but the execution just gets worse. Its a shame.
Old 17th June 2004
  #69
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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Live Zeppelin is bad...

Quote:
Originally posted by Musiclab
Sorry I'm not going there. Like I mentioned earlier I know Gerado Velez who played with Hendrix at woodstock, he however has never said anything about MM. Mitch has sat in around NY in the past, people I know played with him, thats all. Frankly I think his recorded work speaks for itself, and not in a real positive light. But if you think he's great, well thats what makes the world go round.
When you say "so and so says ___" but you don't say who- it is as good as not saying anything at all. It is an opportunity to sling mud, while having some kind of weight to your comments.... a weight that is not really there, b/c it is not backed up.

Hendrix must have really liked playing with Gerardo Velez
Old 19th June 2004
  #70
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Going back to the Stewart Copeland "Every Breath" recording methodology, a couple of pages (no pun) ago: there was an interview with Hugh Padgam in Mix a few months ago that detailed how the song was laid down. Indeed they started with a drum machine kick and made a pass of SC playing two snares, then a high hat track, ride track, etc.
I think it is hard to argue with Jimmy Page's success, creativity, and ongoing influence. People argue about whether Picasso was a great painter or Ansel Adams was a great photographer, and like them I predict people will be arguing about Page's greatness for centuries.
Given the historical importance of Led Zeppelin I think we should have access to the unfixed recordings.
Anyone know if "The Last Waltz" was fixed up? David
Old 19th June 2004
  #71
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Poor Zep, now their virtuosity and creation being compared to the image hype that helped establishing clumsy output like of the Picassos & Co.

Sure, it must be all the same.
When you listen to it closely you must be finding that it in fact is just some average to minor talent stuff pushed to appear demanding by industrial expertise and applauded by the hord of sheeps.

Ok, agreed. Everything and nothing is art. Remember those pics drawn by schimpansees and presented to internationally reputated experts who didn´t know about the creators? ... And how they praised the tremendous talent, inspiration and conveying skills before they got told about the hairy originators?

I guess a couple of apes could play some thrilling rock as well then.

Lumping matters and criteria has become so en vogue these days.

Ruphus

PS: Just Thursday night I was discussing modern music history with someone. He then said Led Zeppelin was "just kitsch." Indeed everything is possible.
Old 19th June 2004
  #72
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Quote:
Originally posted by David Herbert
Given the historical importance of Led Zeppelin I think we should have access to the unfixed recordings.Anyone know if "The Last Waltz" was fixed up? David
I'm pretty sure that 'The last Waltz' was fixed up long before DAWs were invented. Pretty much all 'classic', officially released live recordings were overdubbed in one way or the other. Splicing in parts and redoing vocals was common long before anybody uttered the dreaded P-word.
What's the big deal? Anybody here that's friendly with Page and knows about all these PT assumptions? My guess is that it's all guesswork.
A live gig can only be fully appreciated in person, I might argue that even mixing and EQing the multitrack is 'cheating', what are we trying to prove here? A 'jazz mentality' that dreads the very idea of overdubbing? The 'right' to have access to the untouched tracks? Try e-bay perhaps...

The Allman's 'Live at Fillmore east' is probably my all-time fave live record. I always thought it was done without overdubs but who knows? Would it take anything away from my enjoyment if it was revealed that they did indeed overdub stuff? Absolutely not. The artist has every frigging right to do what he wants with his creations whether we agree with his choices or not.

Andi
Old 19th June 2004
  #73
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Inky Goddess's Avatar
 

Lightbulb a lesson for the young'uns on meter

Quote:
Originally posted by alphajerk
[bonham was] one of the most over-rated [drummers] in history, had the timing of a broken wind up clock.
Quote:
Originally posted by NeoVXR
these old drummers did not follow a click track, because of the same reasons a conductor of a philharmonic orchestra wouldn't either. it is a kind of music that should be played emotionally, and interpreted like beethoven or so.

the drum kit is not a clock, merely ticking a pattern, but an instrument like the voice or a string section, it plays WITH the melody and follows every slightest phrase of the singer or another solo instrument.
fyi alpha, the propensity toward the wind-up-clock approach to drumming in popular music didn't really take a foothold until the disco era. if you listen to almost any music you can find pre-disco that isn't dance music by definition, you will observe for yourself that my observation holds true. the fact that the disco era and drum machines made the scene is by far the major reason that metronomic drumming has become the status quo, and is no longer limited strictly to dance music.

despite what neo claims is his "poor english," he often says some of the most insightful and meaningful things i see posted in GS (thanks neo ). it would benefit you greatly to slow down and digest what he has to say. in the quote above, he succinctly states the musical bases of pre-disco era drumming. i for one wish the trend would reverse itself, and "real drummers' feel" would reassert itself. somehow i think that might throw a wrench into the protools agenda, though. why would you need protools (for the most part) if you wanted music to sound like real human beings were performing it, instead of wind-up-clocks?

i believe i speak for at least a few other older gearslutz when i say we'll forgive you for your oversight, since you were born in 1973. you too, joe cole, born in 1969. most of us are not very familiar with the nuances of popular music (or pop art, or any cultural phenomenon) before our time unless we actively seek to learn about them.

Quote:
Originally posted by Roland
Keith Moon was the same. If you ever watch any footage of him playing it looks terrible, arms flapping all over the place, no technique, but the sound is wonderful!
don't you find the same can be said of charlie watts? but i kinda like the way they look, arms flapping all over the place...because if your eyes had been closed and you were only listening at first, and then you opened them to see those wildly flailing arms, you'd think it was a practical joke, or an illusion, or the audio had been dubbed in...but it was just pure rock 'n roll showmanship.

those were the days, huh? when rock was art and you could roll five joints out of a nickel bag. :::sigh:::


P.S.~i can't believe i missed this before...
Quote:
Originally posted by loudist
BTW are you inferring that disco had no swing?
i am by no means inferring any such notion...i'm straight-up tellin' it. disco rarely swung. i gotta admit, though, it was never as soulless as that ultraboring techno-crap they blare in dance clubs today. no wonder that crowd uses ecstacy. there's some truly crappy, worthless goshdangihatetocallit music. my condolences to the AEs that endure those sessions.

art reflects the culture from whence it came. put that in your pipe and smoke it a while.
Old 20th June 2004
  #74
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About "The Last Waltz"- I would like to think that it was a true document of the evening's music, otherwise what's the point? I accept that "Stop Making Sense" was fixed up and I am OK with that as it was a different type of project. "The Last Waltz" was the final concert of a group of musicians who were famous for doing the beds and vocals live off the floor ("The Band").
I wouldn't be surprised if the sound track was mixed straight from the tapes of the show given the difficulty of getting folks like Clapton or Dylan to come in and OD parts, and given Robbie Robertson's and Martin Scorsese's love of PERFORMANCE over perfection.
Picasso NOT a genius, Ruphus? I am not sure I understand your post... Surely it is possible to agree that folks like Picasso, Mozart, Shakespeare, Louis Armstrong, Einstein and DaVinci are geniuses. Perhaps not, though, as opinions always vary.
Not roasting anyone here, just my opinions. David
Old 20th June 2004
  #75
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Hi David,

I´m saying that the skills of a Picasso have nothing to do with "Mozart, Shakespeare, Louis Armstrong, Einstein and DaVinci".

Anybody who has a slight understanding of demanding painting and sculpturing himself and who is able to reflect by autonomous judge can find that out.

Picasso and thelikes establishment are only evidence of dependent minds adaption. ( And besides, but not unimportantly, occupying potential carreer chances of talented artists.)

Not trying to roast anyone either.

Ruphus
Old 20th June 2004
  #76
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hiya inky girl!
thx very much!

Old 20th June 2004
  #77
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Inky Goddess's Avatar
 

it is so NOISY in here.

i'm about to find out how well the ignore button works here in GS.
Old 20th June 2004
  #78
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Inky Goddess's Avatar
 

it works!

it works like a charm! every time a post appears by a person on your ignore list, it just says "this noisemaker is on your ignore list," instead of their post.

my headache is receding as i type. kudos to vBulletin!
Old 21st June 2004
  #79
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While I try to respect and understand 70ies rock, I also like the funky side of disco (philly, motown, ...) and d&b. also part of the matrix I soundtrack and some techno, as long its not gabber or goa.
Old 21st June 2004
  #80
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The Last Waltz

I did some checking around about "The Last Waltz" and the question of overdubs. I found out that they DID infact do overdubs. I am very disappointed. Oh well.

http://theband.hiof.no/articles/m02_tlw.html

Ruphus,
I am suffering from language barrier. Are you saying that Picasso was skilled and good at promoting himself, but not a genius?

I am playing in a Hip-Hopera this summer called "The Boxer From London". It's a three week stand in Vancouver and I am arranging for it to be filmed and multitracked. I promise no overdubs, nudging, or flying parts around. I AM trying to arrange for three nights to be shot, and I hope to just pick the best performance.
David
Old 21st June 2004
  #81
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Hi David,

It is my bad language, I know, but you still understood me right.

Guess I shouldn´t had said "skills", probably too much of a positive term.
Indeed Picasso´s career had all to do with marketing. Based on his charme as a person. It made an established female galarist become keen on him and that´s the way how he got massively promoted. - So to say Clear Channel pampered.

Already back then crap could be declared as of mystic quality if only handled through the hands of highly enough positioned managers.

Meanwhile half-assed proficiency labeled as art is around long enough to be perceived by consumers as seemingly being of the same level like demanding works. However, if you look at products with a sober mind apart of the mainstream hype, but instead with an idea of the corresponding crafts demands you sort the wheat from the chaff despite of any trends.

It is quite a comprehensive injustice to put the incredible efforts of masters of the brush in the same pott with ragged lines of a Picasso, Bacon, Carrell and Co.

Like if a distorted record of a Bettina Wegener performance taken through a dictaphone was considered invisibly of the same musical level as Pink Floyds Dark Side of The Moon.

To take things as what they are instead of adapting the own perception to trends and image managements would help the arts and give more chances to the talented people out there I believe.

Ruphus
Old 21st June 2004
  #82
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Ruphus,

ever heard of a phenomenon called 'progress'? Ever thought of art as being an expression of the reality of the artist and its time?
The point is not whether you like Picasso or not, you're claiming that he couldn't paint. Sorry, you don't have a clue.
I read an article on Captain Beefheart that mentioned the fact that his early live performances as a 'traditional' blues singer were on a par with the likes of Howlin' Wolf. The reason that he didn't record in this style was that, according to him, it already had been done to perfection. He created something new, and he was most certainly talented enough to pull it off. Naturally a lot of people went (and obviously still go) 'this ain't music' 'he can't sing' etc.
The same thing could be said about Picasso, I mean one look at 'Guernica' should be enough to get an impression of his power and vision. Almost every artist that really mattered was deemed 'controversial' at some point, just think of Beethoven, Strawinsky, Dylan, Joyce, Kafka, Ornette Coleman, The Rolling Stones, Eminem, the list goes on...

Andi
Old 21st June 2004
  #83
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IMHO ruphus is focused on the mechanics of art, and neglecting the spirit as soon as he cannot perceive it in the form and level of the craft he is expecting.
I agree this makes progress difficult. one has to learn to draw (for every style and idea), but the other must learn to see..
Old 21st June 2004
  #84
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Quote:
... as soon as he ... not perceive it in the ... level of the craft he is expecting.
Agreed on that detail.

Quote:
... progress ...
Is understood as development to the advance. The cave painters of 30.000 years ago had higher skills already. And I don´t mean that depreciating. I´m fascinated by their works.

Quote:
Ever thought of art as being an expression of the reality of the artist and its time?
Quote:
... but the other must learn to see..
The 4 year old daughter of my cousin has her expression of her reality and of her time as well.
I have some pics of her here, would you pleae learn to see that and be so dear and sell them for a couple of mios for me? I would appreciate that very much. heh

Quote:
Almost every artist that really mattered was deemed 'controversial' at some point, just think of ...
Some indeed very unjustified, but to put me in that line doesn´t really help your argument. And Dylan can´t sing, in fact, however he brings something other very special to the table which compensates for his singing lacks and maintains his stuff musically.

I knew someone would bring in Guernica.
It serves for political correctness, but I was talking about painting skills.

Anyway, without a certain French galarist your view on arts today would be different. That is what actually mattered.

Go meet some talented painters who can´t leave their humid cellars in advantage to clumsy "artist" kids of bank directors and you might understand the market practise of "art". ... - And the way your perception might have been sculptured.

Ruphus
Old 21st June 2004
  #85
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both.

sometimes good artist, but difficult to see...
always matter of taste and opinion.

sometimes a privileged person gives the wheel of fortune another turn, with something very hollow.

should not be mixed up.
the managers know what they can sell, whether it is good or bad. both possible.

I would not actually compare any two artists on who is "better".
I can enjoy picasso (or magritte, pollock, miro, dali..) very much.
I'm just unhappy that the same money that must buy our potatoes is used to judge art and in a totally ridiculous and same time dangerous amount. a bomb in a picasso OR duerer OR van gogh museum can trigger a world economic crisis. millions can starve for old painted cloth because some people of influence give it the power to happen.
Old 21st June 2004
  #86
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Gimme five, NeoVXR! ( For the last three sentences.)



Ruphus
Old 21st June 2004
  #87
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Inky Goddess's Avatar
 

Question what defines art as art?

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
Meanwhile half-assed proficiency labeled as art is around long enough to be perceived by consumers as seemingly being of the same level like demanding works.
and
Originally posted by doorknocker

The point is not whether you like Picasso or not, you're claiming that he couldn't paint. Sorry, you don't have a clue.
and
Originally posted by NeoVXR

sometimes good artist, but difficult to see...
always matter of taste and opinion.
i'd like to share with everyone the most meaningful definition of art i've ever heard. it came from a fabulous friend of mine who died of cancer a week before last christmas. he was a picture framer in a very high-end gallery for many years, and also an accomplished artist in handmade wooden furniture.
Quote:
Originally stated by Kirt Floyd
I have no formal training in art, but one thing I can tell you about it is that art is what touches you.
i think we can all find truth in that perspective. rest in peace, my friend.
Quote:
Originally posted by Inky Goddess
art reflects the culture from whence it came.
and
Originally posted by doorknocker

Ever thought of art as being an expression of the reality of the artist and its time?
gmta, doorknocker. and for everyone's information, this sentiment is rudimentary to the study of art, and is neither my nor doorknocker's original thought; it is, however, the basis of any art appreciation education in any form. i'm sure those who have studied art have found this echoed by their teachers, professors, and texts. it's also an observation anybody with an open mind can make on their own.

and then, of course, there's this very old perspective on it all...
Quote:
Originally posted by the god of the Hebrews
Meaningless! Meaningless!
...Everything is meaningless.
Ecclesiastes 1:2
Old 22nd June 2004
  #88
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aardvark's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus



...I knew someone would bring in Guernica.
It serves for political correctness, but I was talking about painting skills.

Since the events that lead to the creation of this painting countless thousands of other cities have been bombed...London, Hiroshima, Dresden...the list is horrendous.

Has any other painting come remotely close to expressing the horror and indignation of such a paradigm shift in human relations?


Vermeer could not have painted this nor Leonardo or Gainsborough and lord knows the men could paint.


Cheers,
Aardvark


P.S. One man's art is another man's mistress and she, usually, is another man's wife.
Old 22nd June 2004
  #89
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On one hand restoration of paintings (such as "damsels d'Avignon for example) does happen. Could this be comparable to the process done on the Zeppelin DVD?
On the other hand the editing done to the Zeppelin DVD didn't restore the performance to it's original state, but rather "improved" the original performance (debatable).
Nope, I think what was done to the Zeppelin DVD went beyond restoration. We wouldn't accept anyone augmenting Damsels d'Avignon with sparkle paint, why should we accept pro tools all over the Zeppelin DVD?
I am reminded of how certain religious groups paint fig leaves over the naughty bits.
David
Old 22nd June 2004
  #90
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doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Ruphus
And Dylan can´t sing, in fact, however he brings something other very special to the table which compensates for his singing lacks and maintains his stuff musically.
o.k, got you on that one, as I hoped...
'Dylan can't sing' - what do you mean? I guess you mean to say that Dylan has an extremely un-belcanto-ish voice. i dare you to listen to 'Love+Theft', Dylan's last record (one of his best, I think, 40 years into his career.) He's a master of phrasing and in total control of his means expression even though he might sound like Howlin' Wolf (a good thing in my world).
Take a look at where Dylan is coming from. Delta Bluesman Charlie Patton was a big influence on him (check out 'High water Everywhere' on 'Love+Theft') Have you ever heard Patton sing? It's not a pretty thing but it's some of the scariest and deepest music ever committed to a piece of wax. Same with Blind Lemon Jefferson, Woody Guthrie, Bukka White, Ramblin' jack Eliott (practically a blueprint for Dylan)
Same thing on the country side of things, listen to the Harry Smith collection.
The voices are all cracked, fukked up, scarred.
It's high art, it's extremely demanding also in a-yes-technical way. To give a random example, Albert Collins or Albert King to me are way more technically accomplished guitar players than Al di meola or Yngwie Malmsteen. I'm talking about phrasing and expression, anybody can practice scales and play fast.

And as for 'Guernica' - I'm not talking bout no friggin' PC , I'm talking about the effect it has on me, no matter who did it.
And as for kids painting, think about how much we as 'educated' adults lose in terms of uninhibited expression and spontaneity, we all can learn from a good 'kid drawing'.

..and now back to those scales heh

Andi
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