The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Tags: , , ,

Live Zeppelin is bad... Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 1st June 2004
  #31
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
he was probably thrown trying to lock into the jitter of their drummer... one of the

Bonzo....Moon ,Mitchell all gave beautiful soulful,live HUMAN performances!Thank God! I'm sure there's guys out there that would certianly "beat dectective" this stuff, given the chance!..Shame!!!Some music actually warrants breathing--ie : no click, grid ,edits,etc....BTW; the Zep DVD- - it rocks in all it's sloppy,glorious imperfection.
Old 1st June 2004
  #32
Gear Addict
 
BrianK's Avatar
 

But the Zeppelin DVD IS fixed. A lot. They even left slop in, but they fixed a lot more. I suppose even mixing is considered "fixing" but to alter takes and timings of a great rhythm section, that's lame.

BTW - some recently released (about 4 years ago) Hendrix set had a bunch of "outtake" versions - it was ProTools creations from a bunch of takes that were unusable. Unfortunately, it didn't FEEL like Hendrix anymore - even when he is sloppy, he was better then "fixed"....
Old 1st June 2004
  #33
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Thats sad.I guess nothing is PT proof these days...grudge
Old 1st June 2004
  #34
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
BTW Briank... I can't wait to check out the Recording The Beatles book! When???
Old 1st June 2004
  #35
Gear Addict
 
BrianK's Avatar
 

You KNOW the best answer is - when it's done!

Most of the book IS written and laid out already, we are happy to say. We have most of the photos we need cleared. Finishing chapters are being done, gotta get some more pics, I go back to London this weekend. Trip number umpteen thousand, it seems...

Back to it now...
Old 1st June 2004
  #36
Lives for gear
 
heinz's Avatar
 

Jimmy Page and George Lucas should join forces, create a film, then perpetually update/fix it until they die... handing it off to their descendants to continue this infite task. And hopefully none of us will have to see or hear it.
Old 1st June 2004
  #37
Gear Guru
 
RoundBadge's Avatar
Yesss! All CGI! no one will ever age and their haircuts will always be up to date!
Old 3rd June 2004
  #38
Lives for gear
 

these old drummers did not follow a click track, because of the same reasons a conductor of a philharmonic orchestra wouldn't either.
it is a kind of music that should be played emotionally, and interpreted like beethoven or so.
the drum kit is not a clock, merely ticking a pattern, but an instrument like the voice or a string section, it plays WITH the melody and follows every slightest phrase of the singer or another solo instrument.
you hear it in their great solos. they can tell whole stories, like a temple dancer from bali or thailand does with her hands...

I can mention two more examples:
jon hiseman with his "colosseum live" album, and the old "jethro tull" band, I don't know the name of the drummer.
Old 5th June 2004
  #39
Lives for gear
 
echorec's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by NeoVXR

the drum kit is not a clock, merely ticking a pattern, but an instrument like the voice or a string section, it plays WITH the melody and follows every slightest phrase of the singer or another solo instrument.
Well said, Mitch Mitchell is one of my all-time favourites.
Old 5th June 2004
  #40
Lives for gear
 
doorknocker's Avatar
I have the Live Zep Set and saw the DVD and it basically restored my faith in rock and roll. So Page used a bit of PT here and there? Are you sure? And if that's true, so what? (I bet PT was used for editing purposes). I mean Thin Lizzy's 'Live and dangerous' , according to Tony Visconti, was almost all overdubs. Most of the classic live albums were overdubbed in one way or another.
The live version of 'The ocean' is grooving like a mofo, so if that's really because of PT (and I seriously doubt it) then we should use it even more.
These guys could and still can do it. I saw Page and Plant live about 5 years ago and it was killing.

Andi
Old 7th June 2004
  #41
Lives for gear
 
David Herbert's Avatar
 

I think that Kevin Shirley did a great job of preserving the performances on the DVD while fixing what was apparently some pretty horrendous source material and, I expect, covering some performance flubs. I think the spirit of the music comes through. It would be great to hear the "uncorrected" material to compare, and I bet that the "uncorrected material sounds pretty damn good. David
Old 12th June 2004
  #42
Gear Addict
 
Farm sounds's Avatar
 

Yeah, I think Jimi needed drummers who could match his style of whirling off the cuff guitar antics. Some guy playing tight, just wouldn't of cut it, and probably would of severely ******** Jimi's playing. OR not...what do I know.
Old 12th June 2004
  #43
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Live Zeppelin is bad...

Quote:
Originally posted by Jax
Whoa... wait a minute! Are we talking Mitch Mitchell, the Hendrix 'Experience' drummer vs the 'Band of Gypsies' drummer, Buddy Miles? I'm hearing and enjoying something totally different from you then, Dave. Maybe his venturing was too hard for you to follow? I don't mean any disrespect. I say that because many bass players prefer the drums simple and locked down, and they feel that drummers like Mitch are overplaying.

Mitch brought jazz feel and chops to the table, and complemented Hendrix's wild forays at every turn. For some folks, although none that I know, this was a turn off. To me, it worked in a similar way to how Elvin Jones and John Coltrane matched up so elegantly and made the music sound more raw than it had with any other group incarnation.

Buddy Miles with Hendrix was usually so straight ahead that it put me to sleep, and his timing wasn't too solid. To top it off, his drum sounds: a tight snare with no resonance and a floppy bass drum and toms, well, they do nothing for me. Mitch managed to hold onto the timing much better despite his psychedelic jazz/rock/funk wandering, and was far more involving to listen to.

You're the first person I've seen take the reverse opinion on Mitch vs Buddy. Interesting.
Well you can count me as number two for sure, I think MM was pretty bad.
Some of Hendrix's best playing is on that Band of Gypsy's record, I think part of that was because he actually had a groove to play over.
I have friends who have played with MM, who didnt dig playing with him either.
Old 12th June 2004
  #44
Quote:
Originally posted by sonic dogg
There was another guitarist with Jimi at Woodstock and also a percussionist...I dont know if I've ever heard thir names but in the DVD of the film, theres a bit of extra scenes and there are some very clear shots of em playing....
The percussionist is Gerado Velez who still plays around NY. I've done gigs with him. Amazingly he looks almost the same. There was a drummer also, but I don't recall who he is
Old 12th June 2004
  #45
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Live Zeppelin is bad...

Quote:
Originally posted by Jax
Whoa... wait a minute! Are we talking Mitch Mitchell, the Hendrix 'Experience' drummer vs the 'Band of Gypsies' drummer, Buddy Miles? I'm hearing and enjoying something totally different from you then, Dave. Maybe his venturing was too hard for you to follow? I don't mean any disrespect. I say that because many bass players prefer the drums simple and locked down, and they feel that drummers like Mitch are overplaying.

Mitch brought jazz feel and chops to the table, and complemented Hendrix's wild forays at every turn. For some folks, although none that I know, this was a turn off. To me, it worked in a similar way to how Elvin Jones and John Coltrane matched up so elegantly and made the music sound more raw than it had with any other group incarnation.

Buddy Miles with Hendrix was usually so straight ahead that it put me to sleep, and his timing wasn't too solid. To top it off, his drum sounds: a tight snare with no resonance and a floppy bass drum and toms, well, they do nothing for me. Mitch managed to hold onto the timing much better despite his psychedelic jazz/rock/funk wandering, and was far more involving to listen to.

You're the first person I've seen take the reverse opinion on Mitch vs Buddy. Interesting.
Well you can count me as number two for sure, I think MM was pretty bad.
Some of Hendrix's best playing is on that Band of Gypsy's record, I think part of that was because he actually had a groove to play over.
I have friends who have played with MM, who didnt dig playing with him either.
Old 13th June 2004
  #46
Lives for gear
 
toledo3's Avatar
 

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Live Zeppelin is bad...

Quote:
Originally posted by Musiclab
Well you can count me as number two for sure, I think MM was pretty bad.
Some of Hendrix's best playing is on that Band of Gypsy's record, I think part of that was because he actually had a groove to play over.
I have friends who have played with MM, who didnt dig playing with him either.
Oh yeah, what friends- name names... sounds like B.S to me grudge
Old 14th June 2004
  #47
Lives for gear
 
David Herbert's Avatar
 

I listened to it this weekend- really noticing it now. Damn... David
Old 15th June 2004
  #48
Gear Maniac
 
Joe Cole's Avatar
 

Three cheers for the others here who have posted regarding Page's playing being sloppy.

Most of his stuff is just "licks" threaded together anyways. AND the guy cannot get through a solo without flubbing.

I hope his comments about JPJ were tongue in cheek and he knows that he was the weakest musician of the three.
Old 15th June 2004
  #49
Gear Head
 
archtop's Avatar
 

On the topic of Jimi Page bieng sloppy,


I guess, if you call, full of fire, and energy, and could capture the attention of millions, have us geeks still analyzin' his **** 30 years after the fact, sloppy, sure.

I think the magic is deeper than,hitting the certain notes for their proper duration,flawlessly

he put a little extra sass to it.

Yngwie is not sloppy, and one of the more advanced players,
( being 3 feet from him playing, is something I'll never forget,truly amazing, but his record do NOTHING for me)

They are both proof, that, that in order to connect
with music/people, it's something different than
a spotless performance
Old 15th June 2004
  #50
Gear Maniac
 
Joe Cole's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by archtop
On the topic of Jimi Page bieng sloppy...


Full of fire? Maybe, but does he have to use stock licks to express himself, and then trip over his own fingers in doing so?

I agree that technically perfect music is usually boring, but the degree to which Page is revered is simply dumbfounding. tutt

If you want fire, listen to Gary Moore "Wishing Well". He flubs some notes but he screams at the end of a phrase stike , and whispers in the fills. (check Beck or Clapton from the same era) Unlike most of Page's work.

Phrasing... hmm. Listen to Black Dog.... there isn't a phrase in there, just stock licks. Fool in the Rain...yeah, I agree that's a keeper, but most of his stuff...especially live... not for me, thanks.

Ahhh.... I guess that is why there are more then one color of cars, we all have different tastes.
Old 15th June 2004
  #51
Gear Maniac
 
Joe Cole's Avatar
 

Loudist,

I dig a lot of the guys you mentioned.

Beck is a real favorite, Hendrix (Watchtower is a favorite), Clapton, Eric Johnson, Gatton, guys from Hellicatsters, Satriani, Gary Moore, Carlton, Lukathar, Robben Ford, Landau, SRV, Holdsworth, Stern, Scofield, Don Ross, Tuck Andress, Edge, Johnny Marr, Robert Smith, Townshed the list goes on.

Do not misinterpret me, I love music that is all feel. I do not look for perfection, but I do look for someone trying to honestly express themselves. I do not feel that honesty in Page.

As well, I really enjoy and appreciate a musician that can pick up a guitar, "kinda" tune it and just make music. Page does not strike me as this kinda guy. He strikes me as a good loop maker (three notes, then stop, cut/paste- they did it with tape to!).

He strikes me as a good producer, and as a person who at the time could gauge what the masses wanted to hear and borrowed what he needed. He knows how to make a package that will be well received. Cute blonde singer, big chorus etc.

He is just not my brand of rock guitarist.

It just smacks of political correctness to say that all guitarists love Page.
Old 15th June 2004
  #52
Gear Maniac
 
Joe Cole's Avatar
 

Loudist,

stock lick

-----------------------------------------------
---------5--8--5---------------------5--8--5--
--7 (B 9)----------7 (bend to 9)-------------
----------------------------------------------
----------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------- repeat over and over...

sorry for poor tab skills
Old 15th June 2004
  #53
Lives for gear
 
doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Joe Cole
Phrasing... hmm. Listen to Black Dog.... there isn't a phrase in there, just stock licks.
You bet. Especially the meter. Hint: Try to count it.

Andi
Old 15th June 2004
  #54
Lives for gear
 
Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by doorknocker
You bet. Especially the meter. Hint: Try to count it.

Andi
Isn't that the most "fascinating rhythm"?

I remember being at Berklee in the 70's. A bunch of us tried, in vain, to count that portion of the phrase out. It's almost as if the tape vari-speeds.

Twenty five years later, it still boggles me, and I'm a guy who can play comfortably in odd meters all day (heck, I grew up on Mahavishnu Orchestra and Don Ellis).

Did you ever figure it out?
Old 15th June 2004
  #55
Gear Maniac
 
Joe Cole's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Sharp11
Isn't that the most "fascinating rhythm"?


Did you ever figure it out?
Either you are a much superior musician then me, or you think as I do, that Page just mucked his way through that one. heh
Old 15th June 2004
  #56
Lives for gear
 
doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by Sharp11
Did you ever figure it out?
Not really, I'm equally baffled at 'The Crunge'..... For the longest time I took this stuff for granted but if you really start to analyze it you'll realize that practically nothing Zep and especially Bonzo ever played is a straight backbeat. And as far as Bonzo is concerned , my revelation was the moment I realized that he's playing swing on the fast section of 'Heartbreaker'.
No wonder so much of hip-hop is based on James Brown and Led Zep.
Talk about groove!

Andi
Old 15th June 2004
  #57
Lives for gear
 
doorknocker's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by loudist
Name a Stevie Ray Vaughn song that isn't swinging... bet you can't.
Name a Hendrix song, A Zep song, a Queen song, a Motown song, a Police song....
The Police's 'Every breath you take' swings about as much as George Bush, Copeland himself admited that his drum performance is stiff.... Still a great song (and guitar part) though and to close the circle again, Sting is actually quoting Zep's 'D'yer Mak'er' in the lyrics.

Totally agree though, swing is the thing. That's why I dig John Mc Laughlin but not Al di Meola, Julian Bream but not John Williams, Pantera but not Metallica.

Andi
Old 16th June 2004
  #58
Lives for gear
 
doorknocker's Avatar
As the saying goes: 'mediocre composers borrow, great composers steal' EBYT is like every great pop song rolled into one, to drop new blood out of a stale I-VIm-IV-V progression like this is a real feat indeed. The opposite IMO would be somebody like Lenny Kravitz who wears his influences on his retro- sleeve, there's a new tune of his on the radio which is a bad rewrite of ZZ Top's 'Gimme all your lovin'.
The irony of the 'stiff' EBYT drum performance is that it's done by one the greatest rock drummers....I remember watching the video as a kid and hearing my mother (of all people) say: 'this drummer sucks', I then tried to explain to her that Copeland is usually great drummer....

On a sidenote: I write this as 'When the levee breaks' is blasting from the other room

Andi
Old 16th June 2004
  #59
Lives for gear
 
Sharp11's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by doorknocker
The Police's 'Every breath you take' swings about as much as George Bush, Copeland himself admited that his drum performance is stiff....
Andi
If I recall correctly, the "drumming" on this was done in multiple passes, i.e., drum machine style; snare, then bass, cymbals, etc.

This was done a lot in the late 70's with disco, then into the 80's. It was a good way to get isolation and "perfect" performances.

It was also a guarantee against a swinging performance.

Ed
Old 16th June 2004
  #60
Lives for gear
 
toledo3's Avatar
 

doorknocker- Kravitz is a rip-off, of ZZ Top? Ever listen to John Lee Hooker's Boogie Chillen', then put on La Grange? I think that panning music b/c you think it's derivative is lame.... everything is derivative.

Also- Jimmy Page plays stock licks? Sure, but then again everybody else that was listed does too. It is the emotion that is being transferred that is important.
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
JCBitB / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music and Location Recording
3
Blast9 / So much gear, so little time
7

Forum Jump
Forum Jump