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The ultimate *affordable* omni's for main miking large orchestras Condenser Microphones
Old 23rd June 2018
  #151
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
interesting... the good thing about having separate mics instead of capsules is that you can use them all at once...
Bingo.

If I could only have two SDC pairs, I'd have DPA4060/61 and MKH8040. One, or the other, or both ("both" being generally deployed ORTF 8040 between 4061 in 1m AB on a thin rod). I can very nicely live with what I can capture from those boys.

HB
Old 11th October 2018
  #152
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I don't know if it's only me, but...if we speak about affordable omnis with the "wow!" factor..
Just made a recording of a small ensemble playing some unknown baroque stuff. :D
Baroque instruments - violino solo, violini 1 and 2, viola, cello, doublebass, cembalo. Very dry studio - I guess around 80m2, but very well executed if we speak in the terms of the acoustics. It was their first rehearsal, so forgive them some amount of free interpretation of the musical aspects
For this recording I just used one pair of omni microphones. Won't say the name yet. I'm very courious if you would guess what are they.
I'm still polishing my skills in using just omnis, so I guess you could say also some useful critique about the sound, placement etc.

Distance between mics was around 45cm, I guess more than 3m high. 1,5m at front of the ensemble.

I see few things I should correct in the recording - speaking about placement of the microphones, but wow!!!, I'm sooo suprised by the detail and sound of these mics...I won't say - bass thrills like in DPA 4006, but the thrill is definitely there.

Just a tad of reverb was added.

Edit - 12/10/2018:

To make the riddle a little more transparent - it is a microphone which aroused quite turbulent discussions here on the forum. Don't want to say more. Very known and very cheap.
Attached Files

Autumn.mp3 (2.84 MB, 2749 views)


Last edited by Stradivariusz; 12th October 2018 at 06:07 AM..
Old 12th October 2018
  #153
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Not a big interest in the riddle. Doesn't matter
The mics are Rode NT5 with omni capsule. Pre and A/D - Audient ASP800, D/A - RME Digiface.
Pointed out of the side of the orchestra, I guess around 110* degrees.
Pointed forward on the orchestra gave a much too sharp, busy and unpleasant sound, but they were not yet in the diffuse field, which for this room started still around 50cm higher (that's what I've noticed by the ear placing other microphones that high) Opening them up was suddenly very nice to listen.
Enjoying them a lot.
Old 26th December 2018
  #154
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Can a pair of AKG C414 be a good solution for recording an orchestra (or an ensemble) with an AB spaced pair of omni?
Old 26th December 2018
  #155
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edva's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
Can a pair of AKG C414 be a good solution for recording an orchestra (or an ensemble) with an AB spaced pair of omni?
Of course. Not "the best", but certainly OK. It's subjective, and other factors will have as much or more of an effect on the sound anyway.
Old 26th December 2018
  #156
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
Of course. Not "the best", but certainly OK. It's subjective, and other factors will have as much or more of an effect on the sound anyway.
PS if you already own them, then use them, it's OK. But, I would not buy them expressly for this purpose.
Old 27th December 2018
  #157
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
PS if you already own them, then use them, it's OK. But, I would not buy them expressly for this purpose.
Is it because they are LDC? Or is it because there are other LDC that are better as main pair?
I thought to these mics because they have multiple polar patterns.
Old 27th December 2018
  #158
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edva's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
Is it because they are LDC? Or is it because there are other LDC that are better as main pair?
I thought to these mics because they have multiple polar patterns.
They are OK.
Yes, multi-pattern is a huge benefit for this kind of recording.
Yes, there are better LDC.
Not sure of your budget, but in a similar price range as the 414 I prefer Shure KSM 44, as one example. I find the highs to be smoother, and the overall response to be "flatter" or "more accurate", in addition to typically less self noise, and just a better sound overall.
Some of that of course is subjective.
For more money of course there are several high end LDCs to choose from, e.g. Neumann 170, etc.
Yes, typically a SDC style is used in this kind of recording. But, that is not mandatory. And high quality SDC are usually quite expensive. Again, not sure of your budget, but a high quality SDC of this type is typically more expensive than 414. B & K, DPA, or Schoeps just for example. It cost money to get an SDC with low self noise.
But:
For less money but still good quality MBHO is very good.
Beyer 910 is pretty nice.
Shure 141 is OK for even less.
A good pair of Oktava 012 omni is decent.
Maybe something from Audio Technica, i.e. 4022.
And etc.
All that being said, you can of course get decent results with your 414s too.
I hope some of that is helpful. Good luck.

Last edited by edva; 27th December 2018 at 11:23 PM.. Reason: sp+
Old 29th December 2018
  #159
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
Can a pair of AKG C414 be a good solution for recording an orchestra (or an ensemble) with an AB spaced pair of omni?
Any decent pair of mics can work, and as Edva stated:

Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
other factors will have as much or more of an effect on the sound anyway.
Amongst those factors I'd count mic placement, room sound, audience noises, and most important, the quality of performance and composition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
Is it because they are LDC? Or is it because there are other LDC that are better as main pair?
I thought to these mics because they have multiple polar patterns.
Well, you don't need multiple patterns if you want a pair of omnis, do you.
Most multipattern mics are basically two cardioids back to back, and the different patterns are achieved by varying the polarization voltage and therefore sensitivity of each diaphragm.
LDCs usually tend to add color to the room sound because of diaphragm size, that's one reason many classical recordings use SDCs - and amongst these, many use DPA/B&K 4006 because these have even smaller diaphragms than Schoepses or Neumanns. (OT: Oh the quest for that perfectly linear representation of what's happening in this great hall - ever thought about if that actually translates to a CD listener's living room?)

Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
Yes, typically a SDC style is used in this kind of recording. But, that is not mandatory. And high quality SDC are usually quite expensive.
Not more expensive than high quality LDC, look at Neumann prices for, say, KM-A and TLM series mics. Actually I can get a KM-A body with 3 capsules for about the same price that I'd pay for a U87.

Yes, it's absolutely not mandatory to use SDCs, as pointed out above (other factors). One thing, though, is substantially different in SDC omnis, and that's that they are pressure transducers instead of "two gradient transducers (cardioids) back to back" like multipattern LDCs. Soundwise this is most obvious in a way more accurate bass response, lack of proximity effect, and a more linear off axis response.
Of course, in a bass heavy room you might actually prefer a lighter mic.

Quote:
Originally Posted by edva View Post
Yes, multi-pattern is a huge benefit for this kind of recording.
I can't quite follow you here, referring to the question if 414s would be good for a spaced *omni* pair.
If I had only one pair of mics, it probably would be 414s or 170s or something similar. But I strongly prefer owning (or being able to rent) a variety of Schoepses, Neumanns, AKGs, Oktavas, and whatever else fits the job.
Old 29th December 2018
  #160
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pkautzsch View Post

I can't quite follow you here, referring to the question if 414s would be good for a spaced *omni* pair.
Excellent post, glad you took the time to expound a bit for the sake of the OP.
I snipped only this part to answer your query.
Multipattern is a nice option to have for this type of recording because, as much as I love omni, sometimes there are instances where another pattern works better. You know this I'm sure so I will not list all the possible examples.
But yes, obviously, if one _only ever wanted to record in omni, all they would need would be omni mics.
Again, kudos on your excellent post.
Old 4th January 2019
  #161
Here's a review I did recently, comparing the Earthworks OM1 (great, semi-affordable omni) to a Shure SM81 and Oktava MK-012. I realize that these mics are inherently different designs in regards to polar patterns and typical uses...but it might shed some light on how it compares to more common SDC mics. There are comparison audio samples for a mono drum overhead and acoustic guitar. Sorry no orchestra samples. I hope it's helpful!

Old 3 weeks ago
  #162
Gear Head
 

I'm searching for comparative recordings with at4022, but I cannot find them. Can you help me to find something? Thanks
Old 3 weeks ago
  #163
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Zorba - here is a comparison of the at4022 and at4051
ORTF vs Spaced Pair?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorman View Post
Zorba - here is a comparison of the at4022 and at4051
ORTF vs Spaced Pair?
In my opinion these two AT mics represent the best value in the sub 1000 Dollar range for anyone doing recordings of classical music. The omni mics are particularly open and clean. Excellent quality for a very low price.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #165
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Thanks! Are there other comparison with some omnis like dpa 4060 or OM1?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #166
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AT 4022 is a mic that I think is outstanding in many ways. It's super detailed, pretty neutral, slight high frequency rise, also very quite. Had a chance to compare to a pair of Earthworks QTC40's on the piano and they were amazingly close sounding, I was shocked, almost couldn't tell the difference. I like them better than my Sennheiser MKH 8020, they are more neutral and detailed. Sorry no samples to share. At another studio compared them to my friends DPA 4006A and they were more neutral, less bright and seemed more detailed. A bargain at the going price.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #167
FWIW, Jack Vad of the San Francisco Orchestra uses a quad set of modified Milab VIP-50 mics. The response and sensitivity is excellent and the noise floor is now very low. He likes the square aluminum panel construction with the Pearl rectangular capsules, no resonances nor rounded shapes to deal with.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #168
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
FWIW, Jack Vad of the San Francisco Orchestra uses a quad set of modified Milab VIP-50 mics. The response and sensitivity is excellent and the noise floor is now very low. He likes the square aluminum panel construction with the Pearl rectangular capsules, no resonances nor rounded shapes to deal with.
Did you do the modifications?
I only ask because the noise spec is pretty poor as is the roll-off above 10kHz for orchestral mics as stock.

And at >$2k/mic as a stock mic, I don't know if it falls in the "affordable" category in this thread. Once you get to $2k/mic, there are plenty of standard-choice orchestral mics.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #169
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
Thanks! Are there other comparison with some omnis like dpa 4060 or OM1?
I have the DPA 4060 as well, and I use them sometimes because of their low profile. Amazing as they are for such miniature microphones, their sound is not in the same class as the AT4022. They have more noise and sissl.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #170
Quote:
Originally Posted by pentagon View Post
Did you do the modifications?
I only ask because the noise spec is pretty poor as is the roll-off above 10kHz for orchestral mics as stock.

And at >$2k/mic as a stock mic, I don't know if it falls in the "affordable" category in this thread. Once you get to $2k/mic, there are plenty of standard-choice orchestral mics.
Those were a major rebuild. The jfet, resistors, opamps and caps were all changed. Like most Pearl capsule mics the VIP 50 also has an EQ lift to flatten out 20k hz. All of the 1/8 watt carbon film resistors were changed to Dale CMF50 metal film. The values were also calculated downwards to lower the resistor thermal noise. It was a math exercise.

The noise floor is now quite low, low enough to be used as the main mics. A .7 nv/hz noise special jfet was used with a 5 nv noise BurrBrown OPA1642 opamp. That mic has all the patterns including 1/2 cardiode plus pads and roll-offs. Used they are found for around $500, at least they used to be.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #171
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Thumbs up

The new Gefell M 320 are pretty affordable omnis.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #172
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
The new Gefell M 320 are pretty affordable omnis.
John... could you comment on how they sound compared to the M270 series (early '00s)? I was always impressed with those... though not as much as by the M296...

Thanks.

HB
Old 3 weeks ago
  #173
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

Question

Quote:
Originally Posted by pelleke View Post
I am looking for a (very) affordably priced microphone to be used in a main AB microphone setup for a big orchestra + choir in a big concert hall.

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
The new Gefell M 320 are pretty affordable omnis.
What price for a stereo set ?

Do you think that it would be better than Neumann KM 183 for orchestra miking main pair ?

KM 183 is the non modular version of the (discontinued) KM 130, a standard for orchestra miking main pair.

KM 183 stereo set goes usually for 1400 € (20% VAT included and can be found for significantly less).

Last edited by didier.brest; 3 weeks ago at 10:08 AM..
Old 3 weeks ago
  #174
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by hbphotoav View Post
John... could you comment on how they sound compared to the M270 series (early '00s)? I was always impressed with those... though not as much as by the M296...
The M 320 are basically an omni M 300, the M 270 series have nickel diaphragms.

Personally, the ones I use are the M 221, but those are a much higher price.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #175
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by didier.brest View Post
What price for a stereo set ?

Do you think that it would be better than Neumann KM 183 for orchestra miking main pair ?

KM 183 is the non modular version of the (discontinued) KM 130, a standard for orchestra miking main pair.

KM 183 stereo set goes usually for 1400 € (20% VAT included and can be found for significantly less).
Gefell increased prices on the 1st Jan. (prices had remained unchanged for 7 years or so).

An M 320 stere set complese with clips is € 1,850.00 - but you can order a matched pair (without clips) for € 1,700.00. Both those are 2019 retail prices.

I will not comment as to which is subjectively better as that is down to personal choice. They are pretty equivalent in build quality and price.

The SOS review of the M 320 is HERE

I did look for a corresponding review of the KM 183, but can't find it at the moment.
Old 3 weeks ago
  #176
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Stradivariusz's Avatar
Just a pair of Gefell M270.
Attached Files

Gefell M270.mp3 (2.77 MB, 423 views)

Old 3 weeks ago
  #177
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stradivariusz View Post
Just a pair of Gefell M270.
Very nice - what's the piece?
Old 3 weeks ago
  #178
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Stradivariusz's Avatar
Can't tell, too long ago, sorry. But it's a part of a hall concert which was a big joy to listen...
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