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The ultimate *affordable* omni's for main miking large orchestras Condenser Microphones
Old 13th June 2018
  #121
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Heresy! This is not a comedy club. Get thee to the club. Smart phone is dumb--everyone knows that.
Haha wasn't saying that anybody should prefer a stereo smart phone mic. Simply that the quality of the miniature capsules/elements available has drastically improved, and that I wouldn't be surprised if this is the reason why Avenson can compete with Earthworks as a relatively small company with smaller manufacturing runs.
Old 13th June 2018
  #122
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psykostx View Post
Haha wasn't saying that anybody should prefer a stereo smart phone mic. Simply that the quality of the miniature capsules/elements available has drastically improved, and that I wouldn't be surprised if this is the reason why Avenson can compete with Earthworks as a relatively small company with smaller manufacturing runs.
I believe the Line Audio mics use a Panasonic electret element also (almost certainly the OM-1, perhaps the CM3 also ?) and they are heavy hitters in the affordable mic league.

It's the implementation and circuitry surrounding such humble components which determines if they can perform to their maximal capability, and minimize any inherent shortcomings.
Old 13th June 2018
  #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
I believe the Line Audio mics use a Panasonic electret element also (almost certainly the OM-1, perhaps the CM3 also ?) and they are heavy hitters in the affordable mic league.

It's the implementation and circuitry surrounding such humble components which determines if they can perform to their maximal capability, and minimize any inherent shortcomings.
Of course. And thank you.
Old 13th June 2018
  #124
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yannick View Post
That is simply incorrect. QTC40 is already too noise for me, and self-noise of the STO-2 is 8 dB worse !

That would make it unuseable on any classical source.
Are you sure the tests weren't weighted differently? Because in my experience I've heard noise from my QTC40 crop up during a session, but have yet to ever encounter it from the STO-2.

Also being simply given a dB spec for noise, like "22dB self noise", even if the spec states "A-weighted" etc, isn't very useful and in fact quite meaningless without a great deal more information or simply stating the test environment, electronics wise. If taking a reading straight off the mic then phantom power must be supplied, and a balanced circuit established. Without the same exact circuit and phantom power delivery conditions, the measurement is already 100% unusable as a basis of comparison.

Anyways, in response to your other question about how to place them, the OP states that it's a large, full orchestra, so pretty much anywhere in the hall that the acoustics present well would be a good spot for an X/Y pair at 60, 90 or 120 degrees, depending upon the width of the auditorium side walls relative to stage distance. I think a spaced pair up close may actually cause more issue with noise than an X/Y setup at an acoustically favorable position somewhere over the seating area, or as close as the conductor's platform. The lack of ambience and resonance over the stage might require more gain than someplace further back. It depends on the style of recording desired, but if a stereo pair of omnis is what the OP is considering then a perspective that includes the hall as a major constant in presentation is probably ideal both aesthetically and for overcoming any microphone noise.
Old 13th June 2018
  #125
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The current Earthworks QTC40 has been updated a couple of years ago with a new diaphragm from Japan and the electronics have been changed/improved too. The noise figures have been improved by slightly better than 2 db. The newer mics don't sound clinical but very neutral and accurate.
Old 16th June 2018
  #126
Gear Head
 

i ended up buying the se electronics se8 sdc pair with stereo bar. $500. excellent frequency response, noise, etc.

can't wait to try them. the 141 is next on my list as the polar pattern graph is a bit tighter off-axis and it's just useful to have more mics. i have a feeling they are a bit clearer and the se8 are a bit warmer due to the off axis high frequency drop. but either way, they are both very well reviewed. and the se8 YouTube samples are great.
Old 20th June 2018
  #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
i ended up buying the se electronics se8 sdc pair with stereo bar. $500. excellent frequency response, noise, etc.
The se8 is a cardioid mic, not an omni, right?
Old 20th June 2018
  #128
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
The se8 is a cardioid mic, not an omni, right?
correct. but they are releasing Omni capsules for it. so it's like half the price of a ksm141 for half the polar patterns. :-P so if price is a concern you can buy it in stages...
Old 21st June 2018
  #129
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I'm searching a pair of omni for classical recordings. What is best, a pair of Oktava 012 with omni capsule or a pair of Line Audio OM1?
The second pair has a very flat response (and low output), so maybe it's not ideal for distant positioning (?)
Old 21st June 2018
  #130
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
I'm searching a pair of omni for classical recordings. What is best, a pair of Oktava 012 with omni capsule or a pair of Line Audio OM1?
The second pair has a very flat response (and low output), so maybe it's not ideal for distant positioning (?)
as you said it is not ideal for distant work. for close :yes.
Old 21st June 2018
  #131
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monitor View Post
as you said it is not ideal for distant work. for close :yes.
This (below) might give something of a sharpened directional pickup, or an artificial HF bump..or it may not ....I don't know of anyone here who's tried one in combat conditions in a large hall, and is able to give a report ?

If you click and drag on the 3D image, you can see that there is an internal ring of flexible 'fish scale' splines, which should grasp onto the tapered body of the mic, and stop the sphere from falling off.

40mm Sphere for Line Audio OM1 (5KY2MMEAW) by jonathanduckett
Attached Thumbnails
The ultimate *affordable* omni's for main miking large orchestras-om1-sphere.jpg  

Last edited by studer58; 22nd June 2018 at 03:08 AM..
Old 21st June 2018
  #132
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Thumbs up

The new, affordable, Gefell M 320 omnis have been reviewed in the current issue (July 2018) of Sound On Sound.

If you have an SOS subscription you can view it on-line now.

The direct link is HERE
Old 21st June 2018
  #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by monitor View Post
as you said it is not ideal for distant work. for close :yes.
Wich is the critical distance of the OM1 pair from the source?
Old 21st June 2018
  #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
Wich is the critical distance of the OM1 pair from the source?
It depends....on the dimensions of the room, amount of liveness and RT60 . There is no single critical distance
Old 21st June 2018
  #135
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
Wich is the critical distance of the OM1 pair from the source?

noise-wise: a recording of string quartet and solo voice at 20 meter distance is way too noisy
Highg freq wise: that's taste, as a room mike it could be used, because a duller room pair isn't necessarlily a problem.

personally it sounds really good close, anything further away can be EQ'ed,
but a diffuse field pair sounds better IMO
Old 22nd June 2018
  #136
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
It depends....on the dimensions of the room, amount of liveness and RT60 . There is no single critical distance
Can you give me an idea? 5-10 meters is considered too distant for an OM1 pair?
Old 22nd June 2018
  #137
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Matti's Avatar
I think someone makes spheres for them and if not make your own - you know those balls around capsule to adjust high frequencies curve and polar pattern

Matti
Old 22nd June 2018
  #138
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matti View Post
I think someone makes spheres for them and if not make your own - you know those balls around capsule to adjust high frequencies curve and polar pattern Matti
Yep...post #131 above here
Old 22nd June 2018
  #139
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Matti's Avatar
How come I did´nt notice or read properly...

Matti
Old 22nd June 2018
  #140
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
Can you give me an idea? 5-10 meters is considered too distant for an OM1 pair?
It really depends on the size of the ensemble (say, an orchestra vs a solo guitar), how ambient or live the room is....this determines how quickly the direct sound is overpowered by reflected mush from the walls and ceiling.

The further away you get from the performers the more the high frequencies are attenuated by the air in the space between mic and players.

Please....give an example of: the type of music you will be recording (1 player...many ?) and what sort of room it is in.

5-10 metres is probably too far...but that's not really an answer, until you can supply a few details as above.
Old 22nd June 2018
  #141
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Matti View Post
How come I did´nt notice or read properly...

Matti
picture added
Old 22nd June 2018
  #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Please....give an example of: the type of music you will be recording (1 player...many ?) and what sort of room it is in.

5-10 metres is probably too far...but that's not really an answer, until you can supply a few details as above.
Ok, some possibilities:
- concert band/orchestra in a medium hall
- chamber music (with or without piano) in medium hall or small theatre
- Ancient music (recorders/lute/percussions) in churches, castles, ...

How can I use a pair of OM1? (or other type of mics)
Old 22nd June 2018
  #143
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
Ok, some possibilities:
- concert band/orchestra in a medium hall
- chamber music (with or without piano) in medium hall or small theatre
- Ancient music (recorders/lute/percussions) in churches, castles, ...

How can I use a pair of OM1? (or other type of mics)
In my humble opinion, five to ten meters is probably too far away for recording most of these types of music. Main pairs are typically situated at or close to the stage lip, the conductor's podium, etc. (i.e. less the 5 meters away). The exception that comes to mind is pipe organs, where you generally need some distance. People have successfully recorded all the types of music you cite with the OM1 and there examples in the thread; judge for yourself.

Last edited by jimjazzdad; 22nd June 2018 at 11:16 AM.. Reason: spelling
Old 22nd June 2018
  #144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
Ok, some possibilities:
- concert band/orchestra in a medium hall
- chamber music (with or without piano) in medium hall or small theatre
- Ancient music (recorders/lute/percussions) in churches, castles, ...

How can I use a pair of OM1? (or other type of mics)
As Jim says in the post above here, ten or more metres away is too far for the ensembles you mention...but they would be for any omni mic, not just the OM1

If, like most of us, you are limited to putting a main pair behind the conductor ...or in front of a typical small ensemble that doesn't have a conductor....then the OM1 would be fine.

A safer bet would be an ORTF pair, which gives you more scope for moving further back...at the cost of losing all the things that omnis excel at.

Or.... you could get yourself a pair of secondhand Rode NT5's, buy the NT45-O omni capsules and fit those.

They'll be more expensive than the OM-1's, but you'll have a lower self-noise floor...and into the bargain the NT45-O capsule has a high frequency peak, a lot like the diffuse field lift on MKH20 or Schoeps Mk2S ...at a much lower cost.

This lift will let you get further back from the players, into the diffuse field...a bit further back than the OM-1 for the same perceived direct/reverberant ratio. So the NT5 with omni capsule is actually a good starter mic, as you'll be able to experiment with cardioid and omni pickups.

I should have asked earlier though..do you really (really ?) expect to be 10 metres back from the players...? Who is going to be telling you to go so far away from the stage ?
Old 22nd June 2018
  #145
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Quote:
I should have asked earlier though..do you really (really ?) expect to be 10 metres back from the players...?
Sorry, it was only an example to understand what do people means for distant recording. I would expect to put my mics near the stage, so a few meters from the sound source. In this case I suppose that OM1 are fine.
I'm hearing some comparative audio on this forum and generally I like the OM1 pair, I found it very linear. I'm searching some comparative recordings between OM1 and Oktava 012 omni
Old 22nd June 2018
  #146
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Yes, you should be fine to begin with the OM-1....then as you get more experienced (and save up money !) see if you can borrow or hire some much better grade of mic (Schoeps Neumann, Sennheiser, DPA) and decide if you can justify the step-up to much better resolution ?
Old 22nd June 2018
  #147
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zorba1977 View Post
Sorry, it was only an example to understand what do people means for distant recording. I would expect to put my mics near the stage, so a few meters from the sound source. In this case I suppose that OM1 are fine.
I'm hearing some comparative audio on this forum and generally I like the OM1 pair, I found it very linear. I'm searching some comparative recordings between OM1 and Oktava 012 omni
Hi, I don't have octavas but I have the om1s. You should have a amplifier with enough gain and very low noise. But than you can use them for many things. Here is a link to a recording I made. YouTube
At 7.10 and 9.41 you can see the place of the mics. I did 0,3 dB lift at 10kHz, nothing more.

This is an other link. YouTube You hear 2 om1's that I used for the videosound. Not all the other mics that you see standing there, they are from a pro who made a CD recording.
Old 23rd June 2018
  #148
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Quote:
Originally Posted by luisdent View Post
correct. but they are releasing Omni capsules for it. so it's like half the price of a ksm141 for half the polar patterns. :-P so if price is a concern you can buy it in stages...
my recent enquiry to sE: "Can you tell me if there is a plan by sE to release an omnidirectional capsule for the sE8 microphone ? I am not sure if the cardioid capsule fitted to the current sE8 can be unscrewed and removed,,,,but it would make the sE8 a much more versatile microphone if I could changover to an omni capsule when necessary ?"

reply received today: "Thanks for contacting sE Support!

We have no official release plans of an omnidirectional sE 8 unfortunately. Along with so, we would not advise our customer to dissect the microphone themselves as doing so may cause damage to your microphone thus invalidating any warranty coverage. Microphones are very delicate and prone to damage without a professional technician"
Best regards,
Jana Ma
sE Support Team

so (although I don't own an sE8) I'm assuming that unscrewing the cardioid capsule is not possible..and not advised by sE
Old 23rd June 2018
  #149
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Haigbabe's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
The new, affordable, Gefell M 320 omnis have been reviewed in the current issue (July 2018) of Sound On Sound.

If you have an SOS subscription you can view it on-line now.

The direct link is HERE
Thanks John, I was wondering how those sounded. Certainly genuine quality contenders.

Best wishes,

Haigbabe
Old 23rd June 2018
  #150
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
my recent enquiry to sE: "Can you tell me if there is a plan by sE to release an omnidirectional capsule for the sE8 microphone ? I am not sure if the cardioid capsule fitted to the current sE8 can be unscrewed and removed,,,,but it would make the sE8 a much more versatile microphone if I could changover to an omni capsule when necessary ?"

reply received today: "Thanks for contacting sE Support!

We have no official release plans of an omnidirectional sE 8 unfortunately. Along with so, we would not advise our customer to dissect the microphone themselves as doing so may cause damage to your microphone thus invalidating any warranty coverage. Microphones are very delicate and prone to damage without a professional technician"
Best regards,
Jana Ma
sE Support Team

so (although I don't own an sE8) I'm assuming that unscrewing the cardioid capsule is not possible..and not advised by sE
interesting. i had read that in a review. oh well if it's not true. i still think they're one of the best cardiod for the price. and i still want the ksm141 or at least a good omni pair. the good thing about having separate mics instead of capsules is that you can use them all at once...
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