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DPA4006 Decca Tree or DPA4060 ONNO, samples included Condenser Microphones
View Poll Results: Which sample you like best?
DPA4006 Decca Tree
40 Votes - 71.43%
DPA4060 Onno
16 Votes - 28.57%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

Old 13th April 2010
  #61
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mosrite's Avatar
 

It's got nothing to do with taking it personally Gaston, after all if anyone seemed to take it personally it was you with your response. It has more to do with the general atmosphere of this thread and forum being affected by 'shut down' phrases like that that lead to a totally un-constructive schoolyard environment for discussing things.
Old 13th April 2010
  #62
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mosrite's Avatar
 

...oh and I almost forgot "nah, nah, n-n-nah" heh
Old 13th April 2010
  #63
Quote:
un-constructive schoolyard environment for discussing things.
Wait, you just described the Gearslutz forums perfectly.

.

.

.

Do-do face!
Old 13th April 2010
  #64
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mosrite's Avatar
 

Quote:
Wait, you just described the Gearslutz forums perfectly.
Yeah, and I bet I have more microphones than you have, so there heh
Old 13th April 2010
  #65
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by rumleymusic View Post
Wait, you just described the Gearslutz forums perfectly.

.

.

.

Do-do face!
That being said, this forum started out with a different mindset.
I don't believe we are at the same level as some of the other forums on the Net.
YMMV
Old 14th April 2010
  #66
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boojum's Avatar
Steve, I agree with you. There is a world of difference in quality of contribution and level of collegiality. This is the superior board. And I think this is the finest forum on it.

Cheers
Old 14th April 2010
  #67
Quote:
That being said, this forum started out with a different mindset.
I don't believe we are at the same level as some of the other forums on the Net.
I'm am just kidding, I agree, this forum is much more constructive and courteous than most. And the professionalism displayed is beyond any other on Gearslutz

That being said:

Quote:
Yeah, and I bet I have more microphones than you have, so there heh
You show me yours, I'll show you mine
Old 14th April 2010
  #68
Here for the gear
 

Back on track (?)

Quoting myself here, in the hopes of getting a comment ;-)

"The AB with the DPA 4060's sounds more natural to me, I can imagine the orchestra in the space, whereas the DECCA-Tree with the 4006's is more transparent, punchy and solid in the LF's. E.g. the flute @ 00:53 is defined more clearly and has "space" around the notes.

I think the increased definition may be attributable to the closer placement and higher resolution (8 dB less noise) of the 4006's though, not to the systems as such. Also, getting closer gives you greater density."
Old 14th April 2010
  #69
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Gaston69's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosrite View Post
It's got nothing to do with taking it personally Gaston, after all if anyone seemed to take it personally it was you with your response. It has more to do with the general atmosphere of this thread and forum being affected by 'shut down' phrases like that that lead to a totally un-constructive schoolyard environment for discussing things.
Dear Mosrite,

I did not take it personal at all however I think what you wrote is in my opinion bull**** and I hope I am free to express myself.


4060's - Doesn't sound very real to me. Instruments are not solid. How much of this is down to the mic noise 'residue' I wonder? Let's keep kidding ourselves that the high self-noise of these mics is okay though and that we can get away with spending a lot less money rather than biting the inevitable bullet of purchasing mics fit for purpose! It's good to feel good and not face the reality sometimes right? I own 4006 (second hand) and 4060 and know the differences between the 2, btw I owned first the 4006 and after I met Onno Scholtze I was so impressed with his recordings and his minimalistic setup which is based on 4060. Please don't forget Mr.Onno Scholtze has over 40 years of experience and recorded over 1500 albums, worked with Schoeps in order to create a custom made mic for his purposes however at the end he chooses the DPA4060 because of the fact that they react a lot faster, have more transient and are flat up to 40kHz and much more omni then the 4006.

4006's - Richer, smoother, more homogenous (as someone else quite rightly pointed out), after all an orchestra is a giant instrument and not a collection of individual instruments right? It also 'swings' as a result of a more natural transient response perhaps?, I Agree they are richer, smoother (less fast and less omni the 4060) and they sound fine don't get me wrong, I am using them. Now the bull**** part "It also 'swings' as a result of a more natural transient response perhaps" the 4006 has actually less natural transients due to the size of it's diapram, and believe me the musicians make music swing not your choice of microphones.

In short, the 4060's are an ipod, the 4006 a studer. Can you please explain..because I can not see the relation between the discussed subject and an iPod and a Studer anyway I attached a picture of a studer heh

By the way do you like your Nagra LB??? Try to borrow a pair of DPA4060 put them in a AB with 38cm spacing and record some music and connect them to your Nagra......then let me know your opinion.

This Forum helped me a lot and consider this as the most mature forum on GS.

NOTE: Did not want to upset anybody however if I like something people will know if I don't like something people will know. I did not tell anybody to "shut down"
Attached Thumbnails
DPA4006 Decca Tree or DPA4060 ONNO, samples included-studer-b261-01.jpg  
Old 14th April 2010
  #70
Dear Gaston,

I have met and worked with Onno on several occasions and actually borrowed his first 4060's once (and wrecked his cables! But that's another story...). He is a very experienced engineer with special ideas and really good ears. But I am a bit mystified by this form of worship that is being established here and in other posts.

An AB with 38 cm distance between capsules simply is... an AB with 38 cm distance. Nothing special about it. Actually, most colleagues will think of a quite different setup with 4 mics, that is affectionately called OHNO.

As far as I know, when Onno experimented with the 4060 he found that low frequencies are still rather mono and added two 4006, far left and right, not much unlike his 4 microphone setup. So it should be clear that even Onno himself must have had at least some issues with the miniature mics. His liking of them is based, in my opinion, more on their impulse response and directional pattern.

Apart from that, many colleagues that have tried the 4060 and have a good opinion of them, still prefer to work with 4006 or Schoeps or perhaps Sennheisers. It seems that the established microphone techniques, that all take advantage of the "non-perfect" directional patterns of these omnis, are more practical in most situations and deliver "better" results.

This doesn't mean, of course, that 4060 aren't great tools, and not only because of their size. But they are, for sure, not the answer to all problems, as we can hear from your helpful samples in your posts.

Best,
Dirk
Old 14th April 2010
  #71
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaston69 View Post
Please don't forget Mr.Onno Scholtze has over 40 years of experience and recorded over 1500 albums, worked with Schoeps in order to create a custom made mic for his purposes however at the end he chooses the DPA4060 because of the fact that they react a lot faster, have more transient and are flat up to 40kHz and much more omni then the 4006.
Venerable though Mr Scholtz undoubtedly is, this should not really matter in forming your own opinion from your own experiments. Also, many experienced engineers obviously do not agree with him, I don't know any of the big name classical producers and recording teams using and preferring 4060's over the standards for serious recording and productions. Can you perhaps cite some other definitive examples of people preferring and using 4060's over "normal" main mics?

Quote:
hooses the DPA4060 because of the fact that they react a lot faster, have more transient and are flat up to 40kHz
No matter how good your hearing is Gaston, I doubt you are hearing the difference in transient response over 20kHz between 4006 and 4060, after all 4006 goes to 20kHz very nicely on axis, too. I am guessing you may be just hearing the extreme omni-ness after all, and you are finding that appealing. Off axis response and energy around 20kHz and higher will almost certainly be highly attenuated from absorption and reflections and will not figure significantly in the final sound heard.

I like the 4060's as well, but do not prefer them to the 4006's. They are certainly a very convenient portable rig that can produce some credible recordings where noise is not an issue and where the acoustic is extremely good.
Old 14th April 2010
  #72
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
[...] I like the 4060's as well, but do not prefer them to the 4006's. They are certainly a very convenient portable rig that can produce some credible recordings where noise is not an issue and where the acoustic is extremely good.
A pair of 4060's and a Metric Halo ULN-2 is my standard "vacation gig" :-)

http://tmp.blumlein.net/Purcell-ThePlant.flac
(Recorded live in Sint-Petrus-en-Pauluskerk Oostende on 08/14-2009)

Regards,

Andrew
Old 14th April 2010
  #73
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mosrite's Avatar
 

Quote:
I did not take it personal at all however I think what you wrote is in my opinion bull**** and I hope I am free to express myself.
Of course. But you should have explained back then as to WHY you felt what I wrote was bull****, that was my only issue.

Regards opinions on these 2 mics; I couldn't care less what others are hearing or using. I have extensively demoed both the mics cited and drew my own conclusions very quickly. The 4060's are too noisy for critical recording applications (IMHO of course....)

Quote:
Now the bull**** part "It also 'swings' as a result of a more natural transient response perhaps
I appreciate that a lot of folk don't appreciate the flowery language sometimes employed to describe sound but I retain my right to use it

After all this business is not strictly a science and describing what we hear is ,in itself, a skill.

And how do we deduce what a 'natural sounding' transient response from a mic is anyway? By using our ears. The specs certainly wont tell you that.

Quote:
Can you please explain..because I can not see the relation between the discussed subject and an iPod and a Studer anyway I attached a picture of a studer
Simple, a studer sounds better than a Ipod heh (i.e. dont take me too seriously...)
Old 14th April 2010
  #74
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mosrite's Avatar
 

Quote:
By the way do you like your Nagra LB??? Try to borrow a pair of DPA4060 put them in a AB with 38cm spacing and record some music and connect them to your Nagra......then let me know your opinion.
why would I want to do that when I could plug in my Schoeps? heh
Old 14th April 2010
  #75
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaston69 View Post
[...] Try to borrow a pair of DPA4060 put them in a AB with 38cm spacing and record some music and connect them to your Nagra......then let me know your opinion. [...]
AB @ 40 cm will fill only 91% of the stereo width in playback. You need 50 cm (51,5 ;-) for optimal utilization. Link: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TheorieGrundlaLaufzeit.pdf

Regards,

Andrew
Old 14th April 2010
  #76
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boojum's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew.levine View Post
AB @ 40 cm will fill only 91% of the stereo width in playback. You need 50 cm (51,5 ;-) for optimal utilization. Link: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/TheorieGrundlaLaufzeit.pdf

Regards,

Andrew
Gibt es auch auf Englisch, velleicht?? My German is way too rusty to read that paper in German.

'Thanks
Old 14th April 2010
  #77
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
Gibt es auch auf Englisch, velleicht?? My German is way too rusty to read that paper in German.

'Thanks
Sorry, not that I know of, but I thought the tables might make sense... OK, I see, someone will have to translate this (and the rest of the papers), and I happen to speak German rather well ;-)

Regards,

Andrew
Old 14th April 2010
  #78
I was working with Onno back in 1996-1997 when he was first experimenting with the then new DPA 4060. We did a couple of recordings of the Toronto Symphony where we put up both his normal array of four 4006's as well as the 4060's. I think that this makes a much better comparison rather than the Decca tree, as it is a pure stereo array (Unlike the Decca Tree with it's Mono center microphone). Ultimately we chose the 4006 array due to the noise of the 4060's, but I could hear what Onno was hearing with the 4060's. Another thing to remember is that all the recordings we made were with the grill of the 4060 removed, so there was virtually no HF lift.

All the best,
-mark
Old 15th April 2010
  #79
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matyas's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew.levine View Post
Sorry, not that I know of, but I thought the tables might make sense... OK, I see, someone will have to translate this (and the rest of the papers), and I happen to speak German rather well ;-)

Regards,

Andrew
Let me know if you decide to take on the project of translating these papers and would like some assistance. My German is quite good (studied in Austria) and this sounds like a fun project!
Old 15th April 2010
  #80
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I had an opportunity recently to hastely put up a few main pairs to
compare them on a difficult recording situation, 2 pianos, small choir
and small orchestra. In that particular situation the DPA 4060 sounded
clearer and less coloured than a pair of Schoeps mk2 which in the end were left out of the mix completely. Of course that does not prove anything, but the point is that the DPA 4060 are genuine state-of-the-art, not magical cure all mics or status symbols, but excellent, outstanding mics for close or medium distance placement with the grids removed. In situations where they work, they have a realism of tone and ambient pickup which has a certain esthetic beauty.

The level of microphone noise represents an outstanding technical achievement in a miniature capsule, which allows an uncanny realism of tone and ambience in the context of comparing it with other mics.


This is a clip of Brahm's Geistliches Lied for organ and choir, recorded with
a DPA 4060 pair spaced four feet apart, a typical cheap location recording made in less than ideal circumstances:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/...809/Brahms.mp3
Old 15th April 2010
  #81
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boojum's Avatar
Nice recording. We cannot compare it to the 4006's, of course, but the sound is good.

I do not remove the grids from my mics. I do not want to incur the risk of damaging or losing the grids or damaging the mic diaphragm. I correct the mid-range bump in post. Is there some reason you prefer to record w/out grids rather than correct in post? I am not trying to be a smart-ass here. I am trying to get your input on this.

Thanks so much.

Cheers
Old 15th April 2010
  #82
Here for the gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
I do not remove the grids from my mics. I do not want to incur the risk of damaging or losing the grids or damaging the mic diaphragm. I correct the mid-range bump in post. Is there some reason you prefer to record w/out grids rather than correct in post?
I also nearly always remove the grids. Why keep them on? Get some fresh air on the capsule ;-)

Regards,

Andrew
Old 15th April 2010
  #83
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Gaston69's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
I had an opportunity recently to hastely put up a few main pairs to
compare them on a difficult recording situation, 2 pianos, small choir
and small orchestra. In that particular situation the DPA 4060 sounded
clearer and less coloured than a pair of Schoeps mk2 which in the end were left out of the mix completely. Of course that does not prove anything, but the point is that the DPA 4060 are genuine state-of-the-art, not magical cure all mics or status symbols, but excellent, outstanding mics for close or medium distance placement with the grids removed. In situations where they work, they have a realism of tone and ambient pickup which has a certain esthetic beauty.

The level of microphone noise represents an outstanding technical achievement in a miniature capsule, which allows an uncanny realism of tone and ambience in the context of comparing it with other mics.


This is a clip of Brahm's Geistliches Lied for organ and choir, recorded with
a DPA 4060 pair spaced four feet apart, a typical cheap location recording made in less than ideal circumstances:

http://www.fileden.com/files/2008/8/...809/Brahms.mp3
Beautiful recording, the mics are in AB with 4' spacing? What mic pre-amp did you use?

Gaston
Old 15th April 2010
  #84
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaston69 View Post
Beautiful recording, the mics are in AB with 4' spacing? What mic pre-amp did you use?

Gaston
Agree with Gaston - and are curious about spacing too!

::
Mads
Old 15th April 2010
  #85
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There are two dpa 4060 stereo pairs mounted in front of the conductor from the audience perspective, a narrow pair 7" apart and a wide pair 4' apart
on the same carbon fiber bar. Usually the narrow pair alone or a blend
of both pairs work best but in this case the narrow pair was left out of
the recording completely.

The grid is hard to take off the first time but after that it slides on and off easily. With the grid on the sound is a typical but high quality lavaliere sound
meant to be worn on the body of an actor, a category of sound I cannot relate to very well.

The preamps are Sound Devices 788t, which have a subtle, gentle quality
like the other 7 series recorders.
Old 15th April 2010
  #86
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrew.levine View Post
A pair of 4060's and a Metric Halo ULN-2 is my standard "vacation gig" :-)

http://tmp.blumlein.net/Purcell-ThePlant.flac
(Recorded live in Sint-Petrus-en-Pauluskerk Oostende on 08/14-2009)

Regards,

Andrew
Nice recording and music. Very natural and precise.
The only problème here is the localisation of the soprano.

JMM
Old 21st April 2010
  #87
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Quote:
Originally Posted by boojum View Post
Nice recording. We cannot compare it to the 4006's, of course, but the sound is good.

I do not remove the grids from my mics. I do not want to incur the risk of damaging or losing the grids or damaging the mic diaphragm. I correct the mid-range bump in post. Is there some reason you prefer to record w/out grids rather than correct in post? I am not trying to be a smart-ass here. I am trying to get your input on this.

Thanks so much.

Cheers
The way you are going about it involves adding eq twice, once with the
microphone grid, with makes a particular eq curve, and once electronically,
to remove the grid eq curve. But the electronic eq can not be exactly the
opposite of the grid eq, and the signal ends up becoming overly processed.
Old 16th August 2010
  #88
Gear Nut
 

Nice recordings! I prefer the 4006 decca tree!
Pieter
Old 16th August 2010
  #89
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Larry Elliott's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mpdonahue View Post
I was working with Onno back in 1996-1997 when he was first experimenting with the then new DPA 4060. We did a couple of recordings of the Toronto Symphony where we put up both his normal array of four 4006's as well as the 4060's.
-mark
Mark,
Can you please describe the 4 mic configuration please.
Thank you
Old 17th August 2010
  #90
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