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DPA4006 Decca Tree or DPA4060 ONNO, samples included Condenser Microphones
View Poll Results: Which sample you like best?
DPA4006 Decca Tree
40 Votes - 71.43%
DPA4060 Onno
16 Votes - 28.57%
Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

Old 10th November 2009
  #31
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didier.brest's Avatar
 

Hi Gaston,

Up to now, I preferred your 4006 samples with respect to the 4060 ones. But here, 4060 hands down! More space. more air between the instruments, more depth. More music. Anyway,nice takes with respect to the far from ideal conditions. Thanks for sharing,
Didier

PS1 Apply -1 dB to 4006 for fair comparison.
PS2 Did you tame the HF bump of the 4060 that was so strong in your previous samples ?
Old 11th November 2009
  #32
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Exclamation I'd like to reset the poll...

Gaston,

Since you made the corrections and adjustment to the track I feel I should reset the polling votes, so we can vote on what is exactly represented in your work.

Perhaps some of us would like to cast another vote since the changes you made.

What do you think?

Let me know and I'll make it so!
Old 11th November 2009
  #33
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Gaston69's Avatar
Yes please, reset the poll.

Thanks.

Gaston
Old 11th November 2009
  #34
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The new version

'Heard these again with the corrected tree.

In this case, I definitely preferred the tree. The 4060 version does have some appeal, it is smooth, etc. But I think I would tire of the sound.

The 4006 sounded more real to me, and I preferred the imaging.

None of this means I didn't like the 4060's.

It would be interesting to hear three 4060's on a tree, and two hear two 4006's where the 4060's were.

But who has the time and energy to accomplish all of this sort of testing while trying to actually get something done?

Thanks again for these samples. Informative as always.
Old 11th November 2009
  #35
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Gaston69's Avatar
Didier,

I did not do anything to HF bump, it went straight into my Paintpot with it's build in converter. The grids were taken off.

Gaston
Old 11th November 2009
  #36
Gear Nut
 

I have compared frequency response on a few of my microphones. An ADAM A5 monitor was used as the sound source.
This is a comparison between a DPA 4006 and a DPA 4061.
I was quite surprised by the result, so I did the measurement a few times to make sure I didn't do anything wrong, but I got the same result every time.
Attached Thumbnails
DPA4006 Decca Tree or DPA4060 ONNO, samples included-dpa-100-40khz.jpg  
Old 11th November 2009
  #37
Which line is which?

Also, I'm skeptical about the amount of non-linearity in both results. Are we seeing some of the imprint of the room and speakers?
Old 11th November 2009
  #38
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The Listener's Avatar
I much prefer the decca tree with 4006. I really wanted to like the 4060, since I could afford them (while not the 4006), but just can't force myself against my ears - they sound too "plastic" to me - especially in this comparison and much too noisy in some others around this place. I placed my vote, too.
Old 11th November 2009
  #39
Gear Nut
 

Yes, this is measured in a room without compensation for loudspeaker, room etc. I think it's very linear considering the low amount of smoothing and the room and speaker contribution.
One measurement is slightly delayed compared to the other one. That is due to a small issue with the trigger signal.

DPA 4006 with silver grid
DPA 4061 with standard grid on.

To clarify, I am only surprised by the result from one of the measurements.
Pleas consider the difference only.

The upper line is DPA 4061, the lower line is DPA 4006.
Old 12th November 2009
  #40
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mljung's Avatar
I prefer the Decca Tree as well, now you got it right!

[still those 4060 work very well, and as JEGG says would be interesting to hear 4060 as a tree - although their "real omni" pick-up may make them less desirable here - but again you never know]

::
Mads
Old 12th November 2009
  #41
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mljung's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ljudatervinning View Post

DPA 4006 with silver grid
DPA 4061 with standard grid on.

To clarify, I am only surprised by the result from one of the measurements.
Pleas consider the difference only.

The upper line is DPA 4061, the lower line is DPA 4006.
The 4061s had a lot of bumps above 5kHz, but don't forget that the 4006 is more directional up there, I'm almost certain it's not the capsule.

Another thing is that the 4061 goes well beyond 20kHz [so does 4006 for that matter, but not as much]

::
Mads
Old 12th November 2009
  #42
Quote:
The 4060 version does have some appeal, it is smooth, etc. But I think I would tire of the sound.
Yeah, on my 4061 pair, even with the grids off, I find myself consistently reducing some of the 4000 to 8000 Hz range to tame the harshness. It seems more apparent when I records large ensembles like orchestras than instruments up close.

That being said, I say the Decca wins hands down with the 4006. Just in a different sound league, more like...well...Decca records. Some of that may have to do with the lowered sensitivity the tree has to ambient sounds in that rather crummy performance space. Gotta use what works in the environment you are in.
Old 12th November 2009
  #43
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by mljung View Post
The 4061s had a lot of bumps above 5kHz, but don't forget that the 4006 is more directional up there, I'm almost certain it's not the capsule.

Another thing is that the 4061 goes well beyond 20kHz [so does 4006 for that matter, but not as much]

::
Mads
Yes, I am quiet surprised by the "bumps".
I have measured a lot of microphones on and off axis and never seen this behavior before. Both my 4061 had this strange response.

I have to test without the grid to see if there is any difference. It's a very small capsule, it should be very smooth in the high frequency region...
Old 13th November 2009
  #44
Well I found the ONNO pair more satisfying; the transient cymbals have more low end and the ONNO sounds like it's happening in front of you in an arc while the omni array seems to have some inner activity getting in the way. I use an AEA tree about half the time I record large ensembles so I'm familiar with the way it can sound - there wasn't the width and low end I expected - did you have the Cnt gain close to the wings? A tree with 10m L & R flankers is a lovely setup so keep experimenting. Good orchestra and surprisingly good sound for the room/ceiling.
rgds
WalterT
Old 13th November 2009
  #45
Decca Tree. Much fuller with more dynamics.... I'm more in the middle.
Old 13th November 2009
  #46
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaston69 View Post
Yes please, reset the poll.

Thanks.

Gaston
So, I reset the poll to no votes, but it does not reset the voter memory.

Anyone that already voted cannot vote again even though I cleared the votes.
Man, I'm so sorry about this.

I'm going to look into what I can do to rectify the situation.
Confidence is high that I will find a solution to this problem...
Old 13th November 2009
  #47
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
DPA4006 Decca Tree or DPA4060 ONNO, samples included

Hurray!

This work around will indeed fix the voting issues I had when I reset the poll in the original thread.

Ladies and gentlemen, you can now place your votes.
Old 14th November 2009
  #48
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tamasdragon's Avatar
 

Now this time the decca is more pleasing, but still i have found that the a-b has more air/space around the instruments. Really would like to hear the 4060's in the same position as the decca, and in decca config. (omnis, but why not)
TD
Old 15th November 2009
  #49
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ljudatervinning View Post
Yes, I am quiet surprised by the "bumps".
I have measured a lot of microphones on and off axis and never seen this behavior before. Both my 4061 had this strange response.

I have to test without the grid to see if there is any difference. It's a very small capsule, it should be very smooth in the high frequency region...
Looks like combfiltering from in room reflections. It's not likely that this uneven FR is from the mic itself.


/Peter
Old 16th November 2009
  #50
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Gaston69's Avatar
I have been listening/comparing the ONNO setup with the Decca Tree and my conclusion is that adding a third microphone also adds a lot of other issues as the hall sounds bad with a loads of flutter echo, uneven bass response etc etc.

I can understand why people might like the Decca Tree personally I do as well however it doesn't sound correct/ in balance on the recordings I made.

Please listen to acoustic of the hall which I recorded last Friday on a previous thread https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remot...orchestra.html
Old 17th November 2009
  #51
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Larry Elliott's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gaston69 View Post
I have been listening/comparing the ONNO setup with the Decca Tree and my conclusion is that adding a third microphone also adds a lot of other issues as the hall sounds bad with a loads of flutter echo, uneven bass response etc etc.

I can understand why people might like the Decca Tree personally I do as well however it doesn't sound correct/ in balance on the recordings I made.
We need to remember that Decca were recording the BEST orchestras in the BEST spaces available - that is what they developed the tree for!

To expect it to work well without those factors is in my view a bit optimistic.

Also the tree configuration works best with microphones in which the coverage gets less omni as the frequency rises. Using DPE's on 4006s can help this.

Old 17th November 2009
  #52
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James Lehmann's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by NorseHorse View Post
I'm skeptical about the amount of non-linearity in both results.
I'm sceptical about the amount of mp3-ishness in both results!

WAVs please!
Old 18th November 2009
  #53
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just.sounds's Avatar
I voted for the 4060

I voted for the 4060 for the better stereo image but it was lacking width in the low end but that was expected.
Old 21st November 2009
  #54
Gear Addict
 

I personally didn't like either of them from an overall standpoint. The second one, with exception to the equalization, sounded better than the first.

I personally agree with one of the other posters....in this situation I would have cardiod'd the concert, post reverb. I record in this crappy ballroom type enviornment alot - so, please give this a try if you'd like to experiment. Put one cardiod at the first chair in the first arch and do that the same with the other. Put the mics somewhat low, like the height of the conductors head. It'll be dry and seperated - but - add reverb and it'll sound amazingly pleasant. In strereo recording - I personally want to hear seperation and if you think about it, there is naturally a hole in the middle a bit anyway by the nature of where the instruments are - and I still think people like to hear things in to seperate speakers.

Another thing I've tried is an inversion of what is normally done. I put a pair of omni's straight ahead in the center and close to stageand I spot from a distance cardiods on the sides of the ensemble about 10 feet back and centered on the left and right of each arch. Balancing the two is personal taste, but, I've got very good results.

Of course there's the standard ORTF and SPOTS but sometimes I get bored really easy with the same sound in that configuration and I experiment.

I still think MS recording is the best and I've been too lazy and cheap to get what is necessary to do it, but, I like it alot from other recordings friends have done.

My client's don't bitch, they don't wow, but they don't bitch and they keep on hiring me. No feedback is positive feedback.
Old 11th April 2010
  #55
I have looked at the DPA 4090 and they seem to have a similar response like the 4006 and 4060 mics measured here. I am curious how they would do in this test. Allso I would love to hear the new XYTRI setup where there is a sort of DECCA tree but on every corner of the tree there is an XY pair....
Old 12th April 2010
  #56
Here for the gear
 

Evaluation

Hi there,

the AB with the DPA 4060's sounds more natural to me, I can imagine the orchestra in the space, whereas the DECCA-Tree with the 4006's is more transparent, punchy and solid in the LF's. E.g. the flute @ 00:53 is defined more clearly and has "space" around the notes.

I think the increased definition may be attributable to the closer placement and higher resolution (8 dB less noise) of the 4006's though, not to the systems as such. Also, getting closer gives you greater density.

OTOH the natural depth of the AB setup is very nice, whereas it seems fake with the DECCA-tree. When you go for the latter you have to definitely do more construction work on the rendition of the sound stage.

(On an aside, I auditioned what I believed was a very fine recording by Keith Johnson on a pair of coaxial Geithain-speakers--and all spot-miked sections seemed to just pop out. I still did like the significant LF-boost for the raw power that's difficult to preserve from the live event)

Regards,

Andrew
Old 12th April 2010
  #57
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mosrite's Avatar
 

My observations are concerned only with the tonality as I can only reference this on headphones:

4060's - Doesn't sound very real to me. Instruments are not solid. How much of this is down to the mic noise 'residue' I wonder? Let's keep kidding ourselves that the high self-noise of these mics is okay though and that we can get away with spending a lot less money rather than biting the inevitable bullet of purchasing mics fit for purpose! It's good to feel good and not face the reality sometimes right? heh

4006's - Richer, smoother, more homogenous (as someone else quite rightly pointed out), after all an orchestra is a giant instrument and not a collection of individual instruments right? It also 'swings' as a result of a more natural transient response perhaps?

In short, the 4060's are an ipod, the 4006 a studer.
Old 13th April 2010
  #58
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Gaston69's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosrite View Post
My observations are concerned only with the tonality as I can only reference this on headphones:

4060's - Doesn't sound very real to me. Instruments are not solid. How much of this is down to the mic noise 'residue' I wonder? Let's keep kidding ourselves that the high self-noise of these mics is okay though and that we can get away with spending a lot less money rather than biting the inevitable bullet of purchasing mics fit for purpose! It's good to feel good and not face the reality sometimes right? heh

4006's - Richer, smoother, more homogenous (as someone else quite rightly pointed out), after all an orchestra is a giant instrument and not a collection of individual instruments right? It also 'swings' as a result of a more natural transient response perhaps?

In short, the 4060's are an ipod, the 4006 a studer.

What a Bull****
Old 13th April 2010
  #59
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mosrite's Avatar
 

Quote:
What a Bull****
That's harsh Gaston. You might not like the way I word things, the illustrative (and exagerrated) comparisons I make or even the opinions I hold but I don't think that's a very constructive, or pleasant, response. Or perhaps you just dont like my humour? Either way I don't expect that on this forum, perhaps on others, but not this one.
Old 13th April 2010
  #60
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Gaston69's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by mosrite View Post
That's harsh Gaston. You might not like the way I word things, the illustrative (and exagerrated) comparisons I make or even the opinions I hold but I don't think that's a very constructive, or pleasant, response. Or perhaps you just dont like my humour? Either way I don't expect that on this forum, perhaps on others, but not this one.
Don't take it personal.
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