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Radar 24 Classic vs. Alesis HD24XR
Old 24th November 2005
  #61
abc
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ajcamlet
i have an XR with the Jim williams Mod. It maks a difference. Very good conversion at that point.
ajcamlet, how much was the mod? Can you tell me more about your set-up? Do you use your XR with an analog board or do you mix ITB?

Thanks.
Old 24th November 2005
  #62
Gear Addict
 
rlnyc's Avatar
 

i have an alesis hdxr24 and i use a console. no ITB. lots of outboard gear. the alesis sounds great as it is - no mods. the A/D conversion recording into the hdxr24 from whatever preamp i choose and then D/A out to the analog board for mixing suits me just fine. after mixing it goes somewhere else, so it hits a different set of convertors on it's way back to digital for mastering media. nothing wrong with it at all. the only thing the alesis does in my place is data capture and it takes the place of a tape machine, and it sounds just fine, thank you. it is as professional as the folks recording on it. YMMV, but i don't have to agree with you, and you don't have to agree with me either. but don't tell me i am stupid, or unprofessional, or anything else, or make blanket statements like you are the king of the world. you're not.

regards,
rlnyc
Old 24th November 2005
  #63
Lives for gear
 
blackcatdigi's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by abc
ajcamlet, how much was the mod?
IIRC, Jim stated the mod runs $750 on a similar thread some time back...

I too purchased the unit with the intentions of having the mod done immediately and before putting the unit into service. After testing the stock unit and comparing it to other converters at my disposal, having the mod performed went way down on my list of priorities. I would still like to have the unit 'hotrodded', but again, it is simply not a priority (much less mandatory) in order for the Alesis to be serviceable.

IMHO, 24 ch. of very respectable A/D, + 24 ch. of very respectable DAC, + HD recorder (thrown in to boot) for under $2K is quite a bargain.
YMMV
Old 24th November 2005
  #64
abc
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi
After testing the stock unit and comparing it to other converters at my disposal, having the mod performed went way down on my list of priorities.
Can you tell me more about your test? What other converters did you compare it to? What about external clock - did you ever try it? Was there a big difference?

Thanks a lot.
Old 24th November 2005
  #65
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blackcatdigi's Avatar
It was more a series of checks over a long period as opposed to scientific shootouts. Very informal by design.

One of the most telling of these experiments, was a stereo mic'd acoustic gtr through:

dB Tech AD96/24
Lucid AD96/24
HD24XR

All clocked to PTHD. Once the levels were matched, it was more difficult to hear the differences than you might imagine. The dB was (obviously) favored, but we're talking tenths or even hundredths of inches; not miles. The dB seemed to contain a bit more mid-range harmonic content. The Lucid seemed slightly brighter. The Alesis fell squarely in the middle.

Also, it was very easy to 'fool the listener' by bumping the level on ANY of the sources up a tenth of a dB, or so.

Personally, I concluded that (while every single element certainly has a direct influence on the final outcome), IMHO the source/mic/pre (and in that order) each have a MUCH MORE profound influence, rather than which of any (reasonably good) converters were used... I'd prefer to have 24ch (or more) of the Lavry ins and outs over the HD24XR, but that would represent a (slight) increase in investment...

SUM= My recordings made using the Alesis converters sound as good (or better) than my recordings made using the Radars'. My resources are (unfortunately) finite, so I chose to invest them elsewhere, and in things I feel have more direct influence on my final results.

Just my opinions, based on my own personal observations.
Old 24th November 2005
  #66
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~ufo~'s Avatar
wørd

I'm thinking of buying an HD24XR too.
it would serve as front end into a PT mix rig w/ 24 bit adat bridges in my tracking room.
t'would also serve as a nice machine to use on the occasional concert tracking.
good fun....

I'd consider a Radar but wonder whether the extra cash is worth it, also it's rather big for concert tracking....

HD24XR is a great bargain to buy some time with in that respect.

I wonder if you have to send the whole unit to Jim Williams or it's just a card ?
would make quite the difference, since I'm in .nl
Old 24th November 2005
  #67
Gear Addict
 
edyer's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by blackcatdigi
Personally, I concluded that (while every single element certainly has a direct influence on the final outcome), IMHO the source/mic/pre (and in that order) each have a MUCH MORE profound influence, rather than which of any (reasonably good) converters were used... I'd prefer to have 24ch (or more) of the Lavry ins and outs over the HD24XR, but that would represent a (slight) increase in investment...
I came to the same conclusion. The hdxr is fine and it has not crashed once !!
Most of the time I mix right out of it through a console. Sometimes though there is some editing needed so I send everything through an rme hdsp card and use Dp to work out any kinks/ edits etc. Send it back and use the console. There are just so many possibilities with it and yes it sounds good.
Old 24th November 2005
  #68
abc
Gear Nut
 

Thanks a lot for breaking it down for me.

Since I'd like to use the XR as a converter only, are there any soundcards I should check out (or avoid)? What are some tried and proven combos?
Old 24th November 2005
  #69
Gear Addict
 
edyer's Avatar
 

I have the rme hdsp 9652. It works very well and has a good clock which can run the whole setup.
Old 25th November 2005
  #70
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adam_f's Avatar
Wink

You guys really need to get a RADAR 24 with classic converters and an Aleisis unit and listen to them side by side in the same environment tracking the same... let's say something like a set of drums.

Sit back and then evaluate. If you can't hear a difference in the depth of image alone you may need shake your stiff hold on your perspective.

There is a difference. This is not to say that you can only make great recordings on one vs the other, however you can get a a much more beautiful reproduction of the music we all care about on one of them.

My JAW hit the floor having listend to tracks from both units and vs ProTools and Mackie too.

Please put all your preconceived notions aside and trust your ears; they are more accurate than all of the crap we all read and re-read on here and other forums.
Old 25th November 2005
  #71
abc
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubehead
My JAW hit the floor having listend to tracks from both units and vs ProTools and Mackie too.
Can you elaborate a little? I'd be interested in hearing what you thought about this comparison.

When you say ProTools, what interface are you talking about? And which Mackie?

Thanks.
Old 26th November 2005
  #72
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adam_f's Avatar
The Alesis, Mackie and ProTools systmes all had Apogee converters and were clocked to the Apogee; the IZ RADAR 24 Classic was on it's own clock and converters.

The difference in sound was obvious. The depth of image, front to back and left to right was huge. The sound quality was very analog i.e. smooth.

The Apogee converters and clock improved the those systems so much, however it was not enough to overcome the IZ RADAR 24 out of the box.

If I did not have the funds to get a RADAR and had to stick with any one of those systems, I could only do it with the Apogee in the chain. I'm sorry, but that's what my ears told me and I'm sticking with my ears.
Old 28th November 2005
  #73
Gear Addict
 

YES and so what.....

Whats the cost differential between radar and alesis.Radar best be better for the difference.The point is CAN YOU point to anything under two thousand IN ONE BOX that does what the alesis does?Radar has plenty of competition now from the new converters doing dsd and dxd.The point everyone is making is moot ad nauseum because you arent talking the same money for the same performance.
Old 28th November 2005
  #74
abc
Gear Nut
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubehead
The Alesis, Mackie and ProTools systmes all had Apogee converters and were clocked to the Apogee; the IZ RADAR 24 Classic was on it's own clock and converters.
So it wasn't so much Alesis or Mackie vs RADAR, but more like Apogee vs RADAR, right?
Old 28th November 2005
  #75
Lives for gear
 
adam_f's Avatar
No, just sound vs sound I was saying that The RADAR sounded better to me when comparing the sound/image with those systems with the Apogees; without the Apogees in place the difference or gap in quality to me was was even wider.

Bruce, I did not start this thread and it has migrated a bit towards the sound quality or differences between the units; I'm just adding my 2 cents of actual experiences.

For me jumping into the RADAR world became very relevant when I was stuck with deciding to jump from using Apogees in front of a Mackie Hard Disk recorder and then from there into a ProTools rig. I was looking at my system and thinking how can I get rid of 3 devices and roll it into one while upgrading my sound at the same time.

For the price I would have to spend on a full blown HD rig with enough conversion to get 24 tracks simultaneously was crazy on top ofthe fact that I'd still have to add enough Apogee on top to make the PT HD system sound the way it should of at least in the first place. So though again I'm at abunch of hardware instead of removing things in the chain.

I then found IZ RADAR would give me everything I wanted in one box; yeah if want heavy DAW stuff I go into Nuendo, otherwise I just hit play and record on the RADAR and it's like tape with some on-board editing and guess what it sounds ****ing fantastic, ****ING FANTASTIC!!! Oh and it cost way less than the PT system on top of sounding better.

Yeah it's more expensive the Alesis Box, but once you add the Apogee front end, your in RADAR land anyway.

I'm done with this thread, I've offered what I could however you have to go check it all out for yourself, good luck.

Sorry for any and all typos.
Old 18th January 2006
  #76
Here for the gear
 
Pockets's Avatar
 

If you can't afford the Radar get the Tascam mx24. The sound is not as big as the RAdar but not as thin as the Alesis or straight to any computer based recording. BUT YOU CAN DO GREAT WORK ON ALL OF THEM.

Pockets
Old 18th January 2006
  #77
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midnightsun's Avatar
 

RADAR II

I have an older model Otari RADAR II that I run at 24/44.1 or occasionally 48. I have had it for years and it has NEVER so much as burped... Never. I've even had poweroutages and nothing was lost or damaged up to that point. I know that this is an old dog by some standards (not much HD space and won't go up to 96K), but I love the converters and this thing is built like a tank. I use my RADAR in conjunction with another digital setup and it is connected via TDIFF. I've seen these on the used market for about 3 to 4 thousand dollars.
Old 7th February 2006
  #78
Here for the gear
 

I've had a Radar 24 Nyquist 96Khz for about 2 years now and it's been rock solid and sounds fantastic. Unfortunately I need to raise some cash so I have to sell it. If anyone is interested send me an email. I'm located in Phoenix, AZ.

[email protected]
Old 8th February 2006
  #79
Here for the gear
 
Kooster's Avatar
 

Thumbs up Just bought 2 more Radar's

Hi all. I just purchased 2 more Radar’s for the new digital truck I am building. From the beginning I had always known the new truck would have Radar's in it. You just can't beat their sound, ease of use or their reliability. I had called Barry and told him this and he was very pleased with my choice. I told him I would probably buy them in April. Fast-forward to a couple weeks ago when I came across a pair (48 Tracks) or Radar 24's on EBAY for $10K. I jumped at it and won the units. Knowing Barry would probably be a little disappointed that I did not buy new ones I did not call him to tell him of my purchased.

Last week Barry called me to see how the new mobile is coming along. I told him of my purchase and without hesitation told me how pleased he was that I was sticking with Radars as my primary record media and if there was any way IZ could help just call. Barry even offered to check the units out for me if I liked.

WOW!! These guys just lost out on a sale and still offer to help in any way they can. Now that is a company that stands behind their stuff. Those of you who know me know how I feel about IZ, their products and the people who stand behind them. You just don't find that kind of support or for that matter that kind of passion for the product they build from most manufacturers.

I have had Radar's on my truck for over 3 years now and have never had them crash during a show. EVER!!! In location recording this type of reliability is a must. Who of you out there has a Pro Tools or other hard disk system that has never crashed? Raise your hands. Don't all raise your hands at once now..... Thought So

Kooster
thumbsup
Old 8th February 2006
  #80
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~ufo~'s Avatar
yeah I'm leaning more and more towards getting a radar for the mobile rig and to use as a front end to PT for my tracking studio.

As I'll be on a tight budget (prolly no more than 2-2,5k) I'm a little lost at what version to look out for.
I'd want it to be 24bit, no doubt..... 48k max is no problem as long as it can be upgraded to 96k or 192k.

anyone care to give me the lowdown?

cheers
Old 29th March 2006
  #81
Gear Addict
I bought the last RADAR unit Otari sold. I had a Tascam mx2424 before that and never thought the sound was anything special, similar, not surprisingly, to my Tascam DA78. The interface was a PITA too. I never really figured it out.

The RADAR has been a dream. The sound is noticebly better -everyone mentioned how much better my recordings sounded when i played stuff for them - and it's a piece of cake to work with. I never use a screen, just the remote to edit with.

The only downside i would say is the unit is pretty heavy and fairly noisy fan. It's a bit cumbersome for location recording. I put the unit in an upstairs room and have cables going down to my board on the lower floor.
Old 5th April 2006
  #82
Gear Maniac
 
kevk's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by jabney
"... whereas the Alesis unit would be a one time purchase with a finite lifespan"

The only built-in moving parts on the HD24 are the buttons, the fan, and the two flaps over the drive insert bays. The button contacts can be cleaned with a pencil eraser, the fan can (and probably should - for noise control purposes) be replaced, and if you want to be extra-safe, you could order a dozen flaps.

But the most important, and vulnerable, moving part in the HD24 (or any other similar recorder) is the caddy-mounted hard-drive. And those should be thought of as simply another form of 'tape.'

I've got an HD24 (non-XR), and while I wouldn't mind having a Radar, the HD24 serves me just fine.

best,

John
Hi,

Does anyone know where to procure the quieter fans for the HD24?

Thanks in advance,
-kk
Old 5th April 2006
  #83
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by kevk
Does anyone know where to procure the quieter fans for the HD24?
There have been quite a few threads about this topic on the HD24 Yahoo group. I haven't acquired one of these fans myself, so I don't have a direct answer. But if you search the HD24 group archive, you'll find many references. (Any HD24 owner who isn't a member of the HD24 mailing list is missing out on a very useful and active group.)
Old 6th April 2006
  #84
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Put in a smal variac for the fans so you can run them fast (to move a lot of air) when you're setting up or on standby then slow them down for sound check/rehearsal and showtime. This will work out well for you.
Old 24th September 2006
  #85
Gear Addict
 
skygod's Avatar
Thumbs down Another Corporate Bunch of Bottom **** Feeders

Quote:
Originally Posted by perky b View Post
I have a Radar 24 ... I would rather shoot myself in the head than depend on Alesis for customer support.

It is night and day. My 2 cents.
For all intensive purposes (or non-intensive for that matter), Alesis Customer Support is virtually non-existent (virtual and nonexistent? getthefuggouttahere ... is that redundant or what?). They have basically shelved the project but continue to manufacture and sell the product. How very corporate. They know the fan is noisy, and the drive bay doors suck, and that the caddy connectors are flimsy, and that an external controller promised aka "The Director" needs to be manufactured, but they refuse to do any of the above. They also refuse to release the so-called proprietary architecture and EPROM instruction sets to third party Linux or Unix programmers to build an external director ... who are willing and able. What a bunch of first class arseholes ...

They also know that they could have continued the project and upgraded the AKM converters to 24 channels @ 24/192, and ****-canned the SMUX protocol for TDIF and AES, but they refuse to do that too. Alesis is basically going away folks and those stupid enough to continue to buy their products well its your fakkin money not mine. It a nutshell, they suck and are full of ****, and as soon my HD24XRs break down, they will rapidly become anchors for my bass fishing boat. iZ Radar 24/96 and 24/192 or Digital V with your AES I/O converters of choice is the way to go, Don't waste your money. Spend once right ... or spend again and again and again on the same useless crap


~skygod~
Old 24th September 2006
  #86
Lives for gear
 
T.RayBullard's Avatar
 

so 20,000 for a bit bucket vs 1500? the argument could be made that that is stupid. then again, its your fakkin money, not mine.

(ive got a used radar coming, but wouldnt spend over 10g for a damn data dump)





Quote:
Originally Posted by skygod View Post
For all intensive purposes (or non-intensive for that matter), Alesis Customer Support is virtually non-existent (virtual and nonexistent? getthefuggouttahere ... is that redundant or what?). They have basically shelved the project but continue to manufacture and sell the product. How very corporate. They know the fan is noisy, and the drive bay doors suck, and that the caddy connectors are flimsy, and that an external controller promised aka "The Director" needs to be manufactured, but they refuse to do any of the above. They also refuse to release the so-called proprietary architecture and EPROM instruction sets to third party Linux or Unix programmers to build an external director ... who are willing and able. What a bunch of first class arseholes ...

They also know that they could have continued the project and upgraded the AKM converters to 24 channels @ 24/192, and ****-canned the SMUX protocol for TDIF and AES, but they refuse to do that too. Alesis is basically going away folks and those stupid enough to continue to buy their products well its your fakkin money not mine. It a nutshell, they suck and are full of ****, and as soon my HD24XRs break down, they will rapidly become anchors for my bass fishing boat. iZ Radar 24/96 and 24/192 or Digital V with your AES I/O converters of choice is the way to go, Don't waste your money. Spend once right ... or spend again and again and again on the same useless crap


~skygod~
Old 24th September 2006
  #87
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlnyc View Post
i have two problems with the HD24XR. first, the remote control has been acting up - it is supposed to go 5 seconds forward or backward but it has started going to wrong direction, and the locates are starting to go to zero instead of their marks. not good, but not the end of the world. second, one of the hardrives has started giving me an underflow error and stops dead in it's tracks. THAT sucks wehn it happens during a take.

any other owners of the HD24XR have these sort of problems, or ideas about solutions?
Sorry about the delayed answer to this, but I just noticed this post from earlier in the thread.

The HD24 remote uses a resistor network internally. The HD24 detects button presses when the resistance changes over the connection - different buttons present different resistance values to the HD24. So when the buttons stop doing what they're supposed to do, it's generally because the resistance has changed. The usual cure is to pull the plug, clean it, and plug it back in.

It's also possible that you've got too long a cord running from the remote to the HD24. I've extended it up to about 50 additional feet, but if you add more than that you'll probably find that it doesn't work correctly.

It's also possible that one of the internal resistors has actually gone bad, but that's the least likely scenario.

We've discussed all of these issues on the HD24 group over the past five years. There's a wealth of information there: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/hd24/
Old 24th September 2006
  #88
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tubehead View Post
You guys really need to get a RADAR 24 with classic converters and an Aleisis unit and listen to them side by side in the same environment tracking the same... let's say something like a set of drums.

Sit back and then evaluate. If you can't hear a difference in the depth of image alone you may need shake your stiff hold on your perspective.
Here's what one person (Jim Williams of Audio Upgrades) said after making such a comparison:

"The HD24XR uses AKM 5393 A/D's and AKM 4393 D/A's. The A/D section
is almost identical to the Radar 96, I like the 4393 dac's better than
the hard sounding AD 1855 dac used in the Radar.

"I ran a session recording Drum Workshop drums through the Radar
96 against the tweeked HD24. The HD24 had better top end details and
way better low end depth, a fact that Martin at IZ could not explain
to me."

Jim does mods of the HD24XR, but he appears to like the stock unit just fine. In another post, he said:

"If you're looking for good quality converters in mass, I
like the Alesis HD24XR 96k. It uses the same A/D's as the $13k Radar
96, and I like the AKM 5393 D/A converters in there better than the
rough sounding Analog Devices AD1855 dac's in the Radar. $2500 for 48
channels of 96k converters, oh, and they throw in a hard drive
recorder in for free!"

And, BTW, to the person who asked about disk recorder reliability, my HD24 has never, ever, crashed. It has been rock solid reliable, one of the best purchases I've ever made.
Old 25th September 2006
  #89
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travisbrown's Avatar
I have a HD24. Sounds great for a $1500 machine, is rock solid and never fails me. I couldn't justify the cost of a Radar after doing a cost-benefit analysis. Though Radars are far superior systems, the HD24 was adequate for my needs.

Consider this: HD24 and get 24 channels of quality analogue-->lightpipe converters. This way you will bypass the sound-pretty-good-anyways converters in the HD24.

HD24 + (3 x Mackie 800R or 2 x Mackie 1200R) is still way cheaper than a Radar. Upgrade to a Digimax or something Apogee-ish and you are still ahead of the game.

But, Radar is still a different beast. It is a workstation; the HD24 is strictly a recorder.

Stupidest thing about an HD24 is a unusable 10BaseT NIC. Even though it was a little early for Gigabit, everyone was on 100BaseT. Why didn't they put a firewire port right on the machine instead of the silly overpriced Fireport? (BTW, I don't have a Fireport; I just stuck a Databridge caddy chassis in a 5.25" Firewire enclosure - HD24 caddies are Databridge caddies)
Old 25th September 2006
  #90
Gear Maniac
 
ClickTrackAudio's Avatar
 

Hey, Travis...good to see you...

Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post
I have a HD24. Sounds great for a $1500 machine, is rock solid and never fails me. I couldn't justify the cost of a Radar after doing a cost-benefit analysis. Though Radars are far superior systems, the HD24 was adequate for my needs.
And this, ladies and gents, is one of the smartest comments I've seen in this thread. If the unit is adequate for your needs, then go with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post

But, Radar is still a different beast. It is a workstation; the HD24 is strictly a recorder.
I'll agree and disagree with this statement. Yes the RADAR is a different beast, but its actually not a work station. You can edit on a RADAR and perform more functions on the RADAR than the HD24, but I wouldn't call it a "workstation". I see DAWs like ProTools/Nuendo as workstations. At the end of the day, the RADAR is another tape recorder in my arsenal. In fact, there've been times on a video gig when the producer calls us over clearcom and asks "are you guys rolling?" and I've replied "tape's rolling!". (I realized what I said when he asked me later on "Are you guys recording to tape? Cool!") Lol....

Quote:
Originally Posted by travisbrown View Post
Stupidest thing about an HD24 is a unusable 10BaseT NIC. Even though it was a little early for Gigabit, everyone was on 100BaseT. Why didn't they put a firewire port right on the machine instead of the silly overpriced Fireport? (BTW, I don't have a Fireport; I just stuck a Databridge caddy chassis in a 5.25" Firewire enclosure - HD24 caddies are Databridge caddies)
That's one of the not-so-smart things alesis did. I have a whole rant on issues like that. They cut some pretty strange corners in order to cut cost, but leaving you with lack lustre functionality on some aspects. I have a longstanding claim that if the unit is used standalone, its great...just don't try to make it talk to the outside world.
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