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Which cables do you used?
Old 26th July 2019
  #601
I'm the first one to admit the test gear cannot measure everything, only static measurements are available, not dynamic nor anything that uses a complex music waveform as the stimulus. In other words, we use different stuff than music to measure musical equipment. If you only listen to sine and square waves then you are probably covered by Agilent and Audio Precision.

Like any racing performance car you will need to take it off the dynometer and put that sucker out on the track and figure the rest out. Listening sessions are that track for audio gear.

The Doubting Thoms here can usually be placed into the category of "not experienced" with this stuff. Expressing opinions of stuff you have not used is questionable at best.
Old 26th July 2019
  #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I'm the first one to admit the test gear cannot measure everything, only static measurements are available, not dynamic nor anything that uses a complex music waveform as the stimulus. In other words, we use different stuff than music to measure musical equipment...
Exactly. Published specs can certainly weed out underperforming devices. Beyond that one shouldn't try to interpret more than the specs do or don't reveal. Even though Pueblo Audio preamps have exceptional specs, for years I avoided publishing any because I knew they wouldn't really provide users complete insight as to how a device would actually sound. Does a 0.001% THD preamp or cable actually sound worse than a 0.0001% device? As Jim said, that single measurement is ONLY at 1kHz and ONLY at +4dBu. Hardly comprehensive.

One should not put to much stock into how a +4dBu, 1kHz sine wave THD measures when music has 19,999 other frequencies of concern at many other dynamic levels. A more thorough and informative measurement for quality might be to perform intermodulation distortion tests for every frequency combo within the human hearing range.
That would only take 20k x 20k = 400 Million measurements! Anybody game?

Or, just get the device in question in your hands and listen with care under actual recording situations. Any benefit a device might bring should be apparent within your normal recording practices. You'll know whether it is or isn't worth the $$$.

Last edited by PuebloAudio; 26th July 2019 at 07:59 PM..
Old 26th July 2019
  #603
Here for the gear
 

Snake Oil Salesman: One who sells a product with questionable or unverifiable quality or benefit. (Webster's Dictionary)

Placebo Effect: An effect produced by a placebo, which cannot be attributed to the properties of the placebo itself, and must therefore be due to belief in that placebo. (Collins Dictionary)

Zealot: One whose views are very extreme, especially in following a particular belief. (Webster's Dictionary)

BS Artist: BS artists can fabricate a series of statements, which cannot easily be disproved, to conceal their real intentions or justify past behavior. They also use clever language, such as euphemisms and weasel words to hide the real meaning, or create false meaning, in what they are saying. BS Artists often use their talent to BS people out of their money. (Urban Dictionary)

Sucker: a gullible or easily deceived person. (Google)

Any of the above sound familiar to those following this "debate" about wire?
Old 26th July 2019
  #604
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cjogo's Avatar
Whatever is close at hand ... 40 year old --- 4 month old -- just grab and use.
Old 26th July 2019
  #605
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post

The Doubting Thoms here can usually be placed into the category of "not experienced" with this stuff. Expressing opinions of stuff you have not used is questionable at best.
Not a very compelling argument. If there are 1000 brands of cable, do you have to use/test every one of them to conclude that none of them have an affect on the circuit?

How extensive do these tests have to be to come to any conclusions? Keeping in mind that you would have to conduct this test 1000 times.

You're just setting up a smoke screen in an attempt to confirm your contention.
Old 27th July 2019
  #606
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Plush's Avatar
Do I used?

I use the van den Hul gold. It has the golden sound.
Old 27th July 2019
  #607
That is the single best explanation of intangible characteristics in audio gear that I have ever heard.

And my bit of time using Pueblo amps definitely gives your words weight

I am tempted to take the bait, re; a more comprehensive testing regimen, if only to see if I can find any objective patterns.

Thank you for your words!

Quote:
Originally Posted by PuebloAudio View Post
Exactly. Published specs can certainly weed out underperforming devices. Beyond that one shouldn't try to interpret more than the specs do or don't reveal. Even though Pueblo Audio preamps have exceptional specs, for years I avoided publishing any because I knew they wouldn't really provide users complete insight as to how a device would actually sound. Does a 0.001% THD preamp or cable actually sound worse than a 0.0001% device? As Jim said, that single measurement is ONLY at 1kHz and ONLY at +4dBu. Hardly comprehensive.

One should not put to much stock into how a +4dBu, 1kHz sine wave THD measures when music has 19,999 other frequencies of concern at many other dynamic levels. A more thorough and informative measurement for quality might be to perform intermodulation distortion tests for every frequency combo within the human hearing range.
That would only take 20k x 20k = 400 Million measurements! Anybody game?

Or, just get the device in question in your hands and listen with care under actual recording situations. Any benefit a device might bring should be apparent within your normal recording practices. You'll know whether it is or isn't worth the $$$.
Old 27th July 2019
  #608
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul T 702 View Post
Snake Oil Salesman: One who sells a product with questionable or unverifiable quality or benefit. (Webster's Dictionary)

Placebo Effect: An effect produced by a placebo, which cannot be attributed to the properties of the placebo itself, and must therefore be due to belief in that placebo. (Collins Dictionary)

Zealot: One whose views are very extreme, especially in following a particular belief. (Webster's Dictionary)

BS Artist: BS artists can fabricate a series of statements, which cannot easily be disproved, to conceal their real intentions or justify past behavior. They also use clever language, such as euphemisms and weasel words to hide the real meaning, or create false meaning, in what they are saying. BS Artists often use their talent to BS people out of their money. (Urban Dictionary)

Sucker: a gullible or easily deceived person. (Google)

Any of the above sound familiar to those following this "debate" about wire?
But....Collins Dictionary doesn't null with Webster's Dictionary...so we can immediately dismiss these summaries as invalid

Last edited by studer58; 27th July 2019 at 06:31 AM..
Old 27th July 2019
  #609
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post

You're just setting up a smoke screen in an attempt to confirm your contention.
You are ignoring the thousands of users that hear the improvements. Good AE's always investigate possible improvements to their work. Apparently you are far more comfortable drawing conclusions to matters in which you have no personal experience.
Old 27th July 2019
  #610
Here for the gear
 

See above definitions, especially Placebo Effect, Sucker and BS Artist.

I'll add another one:

Weasel Words: an informal term for words and phrases such as "researchers believe,” "most people think,” and “some people say” which make arguments appear specific or meaningful, even though these terms are at best ambiguous and vague. (Wikipedia)
Old 27th July 2019
  #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
You are ignoring the thousands of users that hear the improvements. Good AE's always investigate possible improvements to their work. Apparently you are far more comfortable drawing conclusions to matters in which you have no personal experience.
Hi Jim, always in the magic show ?
Old 27th July 2019
  #612
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul T 702 View Post
See above definitions, especially Placebo Effect, Sucker and BS Artist.

I'll add another one:

Weasel Words: an informal term for words and phrases such as "researchers believe,” "most people think,” and “some people say” which make arguments appear specific or meaningful, even though these terms are at best ambiguous and vague. (Wikipedia)
You forget the bla bla expression.
Old 27th July 2019
  #613
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Apparently you are far more comfortable drawing conclusions to matters in which you have no personal experience.
So I guess I can not conclude that the Earth is not flat even though I have no personal experience falling off the edge. Someone else may have had that experience, right?
Old 27th July 2019
  #614
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul T 702 View Post
See above definitions, especially Placebo Effect, Sucker and BS Artist.
Look at you, appealing to rhetoric without engaging with ANY of the testing, articles or listening tests provided in this thread while using the middle school debate club tactic of "webster's dictionary defines". Even in middle school, it's a lazy way of debating, you should be able to use your own words to talk about something you actually understand, but as an adult talking amongst professionals who either build and operate world-class equipment, or both, it clearly exposes you.
And let me tell you- I see you.
Old 27th July 2019
  #615
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PuebloAudio View Post

Or, just get the device in question in your hands and listen with care under actual recording situations. Any benefit a device might bring should be apparent within your normal recording practices. You'll know whether it is or isn't worth the $$$.
This is, absolutely, the sanest approach to the question I have seen in this thread. Try it if you want. See if you can hear (?) any difference. Make a choice to buy or not buy. Done!

D.
Old 27th July 2019
  #616
Gear Head
 

I'm late to this fight lol. Why dismiss something you havent tried or couldn't hear a difference? Don't bother spending money if you don't think it's worth it but don't dismiss this stuff as snake oil. This game is not for everybody. A lot of award winning engineers and studios use Vovox,Grimm,Van Damme,Sommer. Spending $$$$$ for cables that wouldn't make a slight difference? Sure.....
Old 27th July 2019
  #617
Gear Guru
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SStudio View Post
A lot of award winning engineers and studios use Vovox,Grimm,Van Damme,Sommer. Spending $$$$$ for cables that wouldn't make a slight difference? Sure.....
It is likely that the only case of these people using these cables that you are aware of are those that promote the cables. Which in most cases (perhaps all) are getting COMPED these cables. In other words, they don't pay for them.
Old 27th July 2019
  #618
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by whippoorwill View Post
Look at you, appealing to rhetoric without engaging with ANY of the testing, articles or listening tests provided in this thread while using the middle school debate club tactic of "webster's dictionary defines". Even in middle school, it's a lazy way of debating, you should be able to use your own words to talk about something you actually understand, but as an adult talking amongst professionals who either build and operate world-class equipment, or both, it clearly exposes you.
And let me tell you- I see you.
Adult and cable discussion, there are an issue.
Old 27th July 2019
  #619
This topic is why I only cryogenically treat my clients
Old 27th July 2019
  #620
Quote:
Originally Posted by avillalta View Post
This topic is why I only cryogenically treat my clients
Old 28th July 2019
  #621
Comparing cables and preamps is ridiculous. Preamps are electrically different at frequencies known to be audible, they're gonna measure and sound different (though you can't tell "how" they sound by looking at the measurements).
Old 28th July 2019
  #622
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by evisto View Post
Wich do you used for mics, analog interconexion and digital?

evisto
I believe that few have answered the OP's question...repeated above...and instead choose to use this thread as the "venom, rhetoric, hot air, bile and spleen outlet", for their fragile, inflamed egos and chronically under-nourished powers of discernment and analysis.

So be it...as a repository for all that negativity, it serves a purpose...purely as a blind appendix, leading nowhere....an enduring record of pointlessness.

For the OP's information, I use Canare, Mogami, Sommer and Belden for the purposes listed by evisto: in no particular order of precedence or significance, and largely because they satisfy my criteria of good construction, field-recording longevity and sufficient performance specs.
Old 28th July 2019
  #623
Lives for gear
Soon or later, they will compare car behavior and cable behavior.
Old 28th July 2019
  #624
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jimjazzdad's Avatar
Following studer58's lead in refocusing on the OP's question: I use Digiflex, Canare, Mogami and Belden for mic cables. I use mostly Belden for line level signals.
Old 28th July 2019
  #625
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Comparing cables and preamps is ridiculous. Preamps are electrically different at frequencies known to be audible, they're gonna measure and sound different (though you can't tell "how" they sound by looking at the measurements).
Pueblo Audio also said it: Comprehensive audio test gear has not been invented yet. AP is good stuff but it will never tell you how something sounds, it only finds measurable errors.

Like I mentioned before, I did extensive tests on audio cables with my AP and found no measurable differences, yet each sounds different. Ray Kimber found those differences at much higher frequencies than the 200k hz bandwidth of the Audio Precision analyzer. The Agilent network analyzer measures up to 50mhz. I used those devices doing consulting work for Hasbro, they are amazing pieces.

We know a lot but we don't know everything. That's what floats my boat here every morning, discovery. Some people are innately curious, some are not.
Old 28th July 2019
  #626
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post

We know a lot but we don't know everything. That's what floats my boat here every morning, discovery. Some people are innately curious, some are not.
Once again, an obvious attempt at an unfair generalization of those that don't buy into your cable nonsense.

A person can be innately curious whilst remaining realistic in their approach and conclusions.

A Scientist would be a great example of such a person.
Old 28th July 2019
  #627
And on topic, I use pretty much whatever is available for balanced signals, but I do use GAC-3 for my main pair/array, not because it sounds any different, but for the documented improvements in RF immunity.
Old 28th July 2019
  #628
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post

We know a lot but we don't know everything.
You speak like a religious : there are something sciences doesn't not study.

In matter of cable: all is knew.

In matter of business: the cable or a bss366 is the same thing.
Old 28th July 2019
  #629
Lives for gear
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Some people are innately curious, some are not.
You are not curious, you do not master the electromagnetism laws.
But you wish no to know, your Poudlard world could collapse!
Old 28th July 2019
  #630
Lives for gear
 

On topic: Mogami AES for most (even for non AES3 uses) studio wiring, Mogami Neglex for location mic cabling along with Mogami AES depending on situation, Belden 9182 for my monitoring (mostly because I made them myself with the large Neutrik bushings/strain relief), Canare for all the BNC/Wordclock/AES3id wiring.
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