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Which cables do you used? Condenser Microphones
Old 4 weeks ago
  #481
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Challenger has 780 horsepower.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #482
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Challenger has 780 horsepower.
Indeed, and I have just heard the rumour that the Chinese use very cheap Wallmart cables in their current expedition to the moon, but, since it's all happening on the dark side, they got away with it....
Old 4 weeks ago
  #483
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Not true! They're using expensive fluid dampened digital cables impervious to cold despite everyone here on earth knowing there are no differences at all amongst 110ohm AES/EBU cables.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #484
Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing View Post
Some sound samples (16 bits) between Mogami and van den Hul here:
Sonodore Microphones
OK, I've listened to the piano comparison, and it's clear to me that while it's the same piece, it's NOT the same performance. There is noise (player or audience) at 0:16 present in one sample and totally missing in the next sample.

In order for a comparison to be made, everything needs to be exactly the same except the one thing under test.

If we really feel that the cables matter, one way to do such a test would be:

Record the performance using the "good" cables.
Do a bounce of the recording through the analog domain, once through the "A" cables and once through the "B" cables.
Compare the results.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #485
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
OK, I've listened to the piano comparison, and it's clear to me that while it's the same piece, it's NOT the same performance. There is noise (player or audience) at 0:16 present in one sample and totally missing in the next sample.

In order for a comparison to be made, everything needs to be exactly the same except the one thing under test.

If we really feel that the cables matter, one way to do such a test would be:

Record the performance using the "good" cables.
Do a bounce of the recording through the analog domain, once through the "A" cables and once through the "B" cables.
Compare the results.
I only posted that because Rens' cables were mentioned, and the sound samples were relevant and better than nothing. In reading this thread I was reminded that long ago I had some silver litz cables, so I went to the Sonodore site and was surprised to see those samples.

Personally, while I believe there are mostly b.s. snakeoil claims being made about many cables I also believe there are some differences even amongst quality cables, probably mostly caused by environmental factors and the specifics of one cable design as opposed to another.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #486
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
OK, I've listened to the piano comparison, and it's clear to me that while it's the same piece, it's NOT the same performance.

If we really feel that the cables matter, one way to do such a test would be:

Record the performance using the "good" cables.
Do a bounce of the recording through the analog domain, once through the "A" cables and once through the "B" cables.
Compare the results.
Yes, it really does have to be the same performance....wouldn't a simple invert and null test then be valid ?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #487
Quote:
Originally Posted by studer58 View Post
Yes, it really does have to be the same performance....wouldn't a simple invert and null test then be valid ?
Yes. If the test is properly set up, an invert and null should reveal the 'difference'.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #488
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Yes. If the test is properly set up, an invert and null should reveal the 'difference'.
This seems to be standard test procedure for esoterica like 'are all DAWS rendering the same way' or 'my dither method is better than yours' ....I don't see why it's not used more often for cable "differences" as well ?

Maybe the "difference analysis" is the contentious part...or the 'extremely difficult to quantify' bit.....?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #489
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing View Post
I only posted that because Rens' cables were mentioned, and the sound samples were relevant and better than nothing.
Better than nothing?

An A/B test with two completely different recordings?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #490
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Better than nothing?

An A/B test with two completely different recordings?
I should have said better than reading some of the posts in here; while considering the reputation of Rens Heijnis, who I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #491
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
Better than nothing?

An A/B test with two completely different recordings?
Or you could take the cables to a jeweler for comparative examination. Hey, “It’s better than nothing”.

The truth is that sloppy testing is WORSE than nothing. It gives misleading results that are then cited as evidence. False testimony is not evidence.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #492
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whippoorwill's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
OK, I've listened to the piano comparison, and it's clear to me that while it's the same piece, it's NOT the same performance. There is noise (player or audience) at 0:16 present in one sample and totally missing in the next sample.

In order for a comparison to be made, everything needs to be exactly the same except the one thing under test.

If we really feel that the cables matter, one way to do such a test would be:

Record the performance using the "good" cables.
Do a bounce of the recording through the analog domain, once through the "A" cables and once through the "B" cables.
Compare the results.
The Schoeps test on that Sonodore page is the same performance, two different cables.

The other tests on that Sonodore page are not the same performances, but the same microphone placement. The exact same sonic difference is shown throughout all the tests. One of the tests is a music box, how on earth would Rens change the performance of that??

There is no way to do a test of microphone cables that has only one change as either you use two different pairs of mics, or you use one pair of mics and two different performances, but what Rens has done is a number of different tests doing both of these possible tests. It is really quite thorough and not sloppy or wrong at all and I would say people owe it themselves to take a closer look (or even open the site and download the files) before they post.

The difference is very clear to me, the Van Den Hul shows more bass and less of a high end peak and, if I can be subjective for a second, a softer sound with less poky transients. The music box is almost annoying through the mogami, but not through the van den hul. This very very much chimes with my real-life experience.

I also posted this: Are all audio cables the same? | pureMix.net

Which is one test you asked for above.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #493
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
Or you could take the cables to a jeweler for comparative examination. Hey, “It’s better than nothing”.

The truth is that sloppy testing is WORSE than nothing. It gives misleading results that are then cited as evidence. False testimony is not evidence.
I guess you were quoting my post, which made no claims whatsoever and so don't understand why you are so steamed about a reference to samples running through cables. But if you prefer a different methodology then post it here. In the next month or two I will be in touch with Sonodore about micpres and would be happy to forward it on.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #494
I also use good cables in the shop while working on gear. The shop system has the excellent Nuprime CDT-8 digital deck with upsampling and error correction "on the fly". It does a FLAC thing in real time. I love Red Book CD's upsampled to 384k. That uses a 1 foot 3 braid Kimber AGSS pure silver S/PFIF cable to the DAC, a Project Audio Pre Box S2 with dual ESS 9038 DAC chips.

That DAC uses a pair of Kimber 3 braid solid core pure silver "Black Pearls" 1 foot cables to the modified Adcom GFA 545 power amp loaded with Vishay naked bulk foil and Mills wirewound resistors. It has a matched pair of super low noise input transistors and the amp hiss is -110 dbu. The internal power amp shielded cable is a special balanced teflon-silver cable made for the Space Shuttles, I got it from a Rockwell engineer.

That feeds a pair of Kimber 4TC speaker cables into a pair of Emotiva B1 speakers with InfiniCap crossover capacitors. Visitors are often blown away by hearing some old favs, probably for the first time in hi-fi. It's audio archaeology when you hear new stuff on familiar recordings.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #495
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whippoorwill View Post

The difference is very clear to me, the Van Den Hul shows more bass and less of a high end peak and, if I can be subjective for a second, a softer sound with less poky transients. The music box is almost annoying through the mogami, but not through the van den hul.
Ya sure.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #496
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Ya ya es ist
Old 4 weeks ago
  #497
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How is possible to confound a cable with an equalizer.

It existe a thing names brille, glasses, lunettes, lyunet....

Or a magnifying glass!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #498
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
I also use good cables in the shop while working on gear. The shop system has the excellent Nuprime CDT-8 digital deck with upsampling and error correction "on the fly". It does a FLAC thing in real time. I love Red Book CD's upsampled to 384k. That uses a 1 foot 3 braid Kimber AGSS pure silver S/PFIF cable to the DAC, a Project Audio Pre Box S2 with dual ESS 9038 DAC chips.

That DAC uses a pair of Kimber 3 braid solid core pure silver "Black Pearls" 1 foot cables to the modified Adcom GFA 545 power amp loaded with Vishay naked bulk foil and Mills wirewound resistors. It has a matched pair of super low noise input transistors and the amp hiss is -110 dbu. The internal power amp shielded cable is a special balanced teflon-silver cable made for the Space Shuttles, I got it from a Rockwell engineer.

That feeds a pair of Kimber 4TC speaker cables into a pair of Emotiva B1 speakers with InfiniCap crossover capacitors. Visitors are often blown away by hearing some old favs, probably for the first time in hi-fi. It's audio archaeology when you hear new stuff on familiar recordings.
Are we in a jewelry?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #499
Sort of. Silver is a 'sound' investment at $16 per ounce and rising. I don't wear jewelry, I listen through it.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #500
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Sort of. Silver is a 'sound' investment at $16 per ounce and rising. I don't wear jewelry, I listen through it.
Well it sure isn’t a sound investment. Your once of silver cable would cost a bit more than $16. That once could make a whole lot of cable, like tens of thousands of dollars worth at magic cable company prices.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #501
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing View Post
I guess you were quoting my post, which made no claims whatsoever and so don't understand why you are so steamed about a reference to samples running through cables. But if you prefer a different methodology then post it here. In the next month or two I will be in touch with Sonodore about micpres and would be happy to forward it on.
“...relevant and better than nothing...” are claims.
I’m not “steamed” about anything. I’d have to take this and similar threads a lot more seriously to heat up any water.
Too much of this thread is like people in England in the 1800s being excited about fairies in the garden; writing letters, books and articles, some with pictures. It became quite an obsession for at least a decade. Spoiler alert... there are no fairies in the garden.
The people who propose rigorous scientific double blind tests of our ability to perceive differences in cables are not popular in these threads. Many posters here would hate and doubt anyone who posted honest results.
So, no, I’m not going to spoil the fun. You want to talk about details of fairy appearance and costuming. Go ahead! Have a cucumber sandwich for me... and enjoy!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #502
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
. . . You want to talk about details of fairy appearance and costuming. Go ahead! Have a cucumber sandwich for me... and enjoy!
Just came back from a great experience hearing Roscoe Mitchell, who is from my neighborhood back home, and I ran into your post while checking email.

I can't remember having had an exchange with you before. All I did is post reference to samples from a respected person in the industry and made a few jokes about cables on the moon and silver solder. If you read my posts above you'd know that I use basic Mogami, though I can afford much more expensive than that, and I don't care much about cables.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #503
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swing View Post
Just came back from a great experience hearing Roscoe Mitchell, who is from my neighborhood back home, and I ran into your post while checking email.

I can't remember having had an exchange with you before. All I did is post reference to samples from a respected person in the industry and made a few jokes about cables on the moon and silver solder. If you read my posts above you'd know that I use basic Mogami, though I can afford much more expensive than that, and I don't care much about cables.
Don’t care much about cables? Neither do I. We certainly have more important things to spend audio money on and to write about.
Be well!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #504
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Williams View Post
Sort of. Silver is a 'sound' investment at $16 per ounce and rising. I don't wear jewelry, I listen through it.
You prove you don't hear silver cables. 16 usd, a joke.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #505
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by whippoorwill View Post
The difference is very clear to me, the Van Den Hul shows more bass and less of a high end peak and, if I can be subjective for a second, a softer sound with less poky transients. The music box is almost annoying through the mogami, but not through the van den hul. This very very much chimes with my real-life experience.
This mirrors my experience with Sommer SC-Carbokab microphone cable. Perhaps it's the carbon film encapsulating the conductors in both the Sommer and Van den Hul?

Sommer cable Shop | Microphone Cable SC-Carbokab 225; 2 x 0,25 mm2; S-PVC O 7,60 mm; black | purchase online
Old 4 weeks ago
  #506
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tailspn View Post
This mirrors my experience with Sommer SC-Carbokab microphone cable. Perhaps it's the carbon film encapsulating the conductors in both the Sommer and Van den Hul?
Yes! I also own and regularly use the Carbokab and they are similar in construction and sound. It also does something difficult to pinpoint. Very strange to compare to Grimm TPR in particular, which comparatively seems to highlight the room sound- I did a bunch of comparisons where it sounded like the sommer was distinctly closer to the musicians than the TPR.

The van den hul is perhaps the nicest mic cable I know from some perspectives.
Like a cross between carbokab and vovox and I wish I could buy a lot of it.
However, it's also stiff.
Old 4 weeks ago
  #507
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by whippoorwill View Post
Yes! I also own and regularly use the Carbokab and they are similar in construction and sound. It also does something difficult to pinpoint. Very strange to compare to Grimm TPR in particular, which comparatively seems to highlight the room sound- I did a bunch of comparisons where it sounded like the sommer was distinctly closer to the musicians than the TPR. .
Could you please elaborate? Closer to the musicians with respect to distance, or musicians sound? And by room sound, is that low frequency air (spaciousness) ?

I purchased 100 feet of TPR for three 30 foot mic runs (I use a Horus as a stage box right at the base of three front stands), and did not proceed with putting connectors on the after seeing they used tinned stranded conductors. Spooked me.

Thanks!
Old 4 weeks ago
  #508
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LOL
Old 4 weeks ago
  #509
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
LOL
Isn't that alone worth it?
Old 4 weeks ago
  #510
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushman View Post
“...relevant and better than nothing...” are claims.
I’m not “steamed” about anything. I’d have to take this and similar threads a lot more seriously to heat up any water.
Too much of this thread is like people in England in the 1800s being excited about fairies in the garden; writing letters, books and articles, some with pictures. It became quite an obsession for at least a decade. Spoiler alert... there are no fairies in the garden.
The people who propose rigorous scientific double blind tests of our ability to perceive differences in cables are not popular in these threads. Many posters here would hate and doubt anyone who posted honest results.
So, no, I’m not going to spoil the fun. You want to talk about details of fairy appearance and costuming. Go ahead! Have a cucumber sandwich for me... and enjoy!
Hi Bushman, you're probably right...

Some of us like to strive for a "perfect" sound... Silly,, of course, because we will never get there, but this quest drives us into buying a Prism, Lavry or Antelope converter instead of just buying an entry level RME converter. Silly, of course, because the RME gets the job perfectly done, is cheaper, and more practical to use. Some of us like to alter the electronics in our mics, because we perceive some capacitors as better sounding than others. Silly, of course, because the specs don't seem to improve. Some of us try different cables, because we perceive that they can sound differently in regard to tonality and acoustical ambience. Silly of course, because we end up spending more money and often these more expensive cables are less practical...

Why do we do this? Firstly, because we are silly; we have the strange idea that we can trust our ears, and on top of that, we do have a strange notion of what we consider the "better" sound.

Secondly, we do believe in fairies.... While most people would contend themselves with the ability to hear the roaring of the wild boar, we want to reproduce and hear the whispering of the fairies...

Last saturday I had such a remarkable experience; the church in which the recording was done had a beautiful acoustic, after an hour of moving the stands around, my mics found the ideal spot, the violin that was recorded was a beautiful Cremona instrument, the violinist had his best day, the sound that traveled from my mics through the Vovox cables into my DAV preamp, and finally reached my eardrums through my Denon 7000 headphones did something remarkable... it felt as if I could hear the fairies!

Unfortunately, that doesn't happen all the time. Often, I have to contend myself with only hearing the roaring of the wild boar. But I still keep striving to hear the fairies. That's what keeps me motivated as a recording engineer. Unfortunately (and silly enough) cables are part of that quest.
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