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A Classical music organization bitch session...
Old 14th October 2008
  #31
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I used to find myself in situations like this all the time... I'd give somebody a deal for a recording once and they would add more and more to the requirements and refuse to pay more. Some of the groups would add insult to injury by not paying their bills. The problem is that many non-profits expect the world to take care of them. They don't pay the musicians anywhere close to a living wage and the fact that you expect more than a musician may get for "less" work just adds to the confusion.

The best thing I ever did for my business was to start raising my rates. I have a pretty set rate structure based on what the gig requires. If it takes 12 mics and a big DAW, than that is one rate. If it requires 2 mics and a flashcard recorder, that is another rate. I have a "cut rate" for students that basically involves me handing over a CD at the end of the show and I never look at it again.

At first it was difficult because I was hurting for work and my higher rates caused a number of folks to not hire me back. However, that was quickly made up by other clients that saw my rates as an indication of quality. When they pay more, they may expect more (reasonable and not anything that is a problem for me), but they also respect me more. I don't have to work as hard to get the same or better income.

One of the favorite conversations I have is somebody describes the recording that they want. It involves me bringing $40-$50K worth of gear and I may charge them $1000 for that. Then they come back and say "but my friend may do it for $300." At that point, I usually recommend that they hire their friend. More often than not, they come back to me and say "but your work sounds better." I then tell them that they have a choice and my rate will not be going down for them. It is a pretty regular thing that those clients eventually come around. Perhaps not immediately, but they will usually end up hiring me because of a known level of quality.

I think my rates are still too low for what I offer, but unfortunately that is just the way that working here in LA tends to be. My commercial rates are a lot higher and that helps pay for the non-profit stuff (which is also a lot more rewarding).

Good luck with this mess and hold your ground. You own the multitracks unless specified elsewhere IN WRITING. You can't necessarily do anything with them as they own the musical performance, but the recording is yours. If they want to use it (especially for a commercial venture), it needs to come at a price. The more difficult they are, the higher you should charge. If it means that much to them, they'll eventually pay the bill. If it doesn't mean much to them it will pass....

--Ben
Old 14th October 2008
  #32
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d_fu's Avatar
 

Little story in similar vein, just heard it recently:
In the town where I used to live, which hosts the above mentioned festival and symphony orchestra, and where I still have a number of customers (some of which have been loyal for 10 to 15 years now...), there is a piano tuner whom I meet at practically every concert where there is a piano or harpsichord to be tuned. He works for practically every ensemble and organization there. In one particular (university owned) hall, there's an old Steinway, which he's been tuning for twenty years or so. When it was time recently to give the instrument a full service (a job apparently worth three or four thousand Euros), the person in charge just hired someone from out of town, apparently witout even asking him. He mentioned he was ready to murder her, which I don't doubt in the least, and which I fully sympathize with...
Old 15th October 2008
  #33
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tenor39's Avatar
 

I didn't hear anything from anyone today, either by e-mail or phone. I have to go record a children's concert tomorrow with members of said orchestra, so we'll see what transpires.
Old 15th October 2008
  #34
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Corran's Avatar
 

Sorry to hear this, but I agree, it's nice to see I'm not the only one.

How about this: today I just got a gig reduced from $300 to $100 because I'm a student and the department head decided I should do something as part of a "contribution" to our fundraising project. The $100 is actually out of someone else's department money. I wish I could figure out how I can disentangle my "student" life and my "business".

Anyway, good call about not giving her the masters. As (another) composer, though, I must say I'm glad that I can do the recording thing myself!
Old 15th October 2008
  #35
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu View Post
Little story in similar vein, just heard it recently:
In the town where I used to live, which hosts the above mentioned festival and symphony orchestra, and where I still have a number of customers (some of which have been loyal for 10 to 15 years now...), there is a piano tuner whom I meet at practically every concert where there is a piano or harpsichord to be tuned. He works for practically every ensemble and organization there. In one particular (university owned) hall, there's an old Steinway, which he's been tuning for twenty years or so. When it was time recently to give the instrument a full service (a job apparently worth three or four thousand Euros), the person in charge just hired someone from out of town, apparently witout even asking him. He mentioned he was ready to murder her, which I don't doubt in the least, and which I fully sympathize with...

It doesn't follow that you would give action overhaul work to your local piano tuner, there are firms that specialize in this kind of work and it might be that being an institution they have gone with a Steinway dealer, I personally can't see any reason that he's got to be pissed at. Quite possibly the women that booked the other firm might not have even known that he was in the market for it. From your post it doesn't appear that they have questioned his work, threatened to replace him or queried his bill, this in itself makes it a different situation.

As I've said before, handling customers is much of what the business is about, even when they are rude, thoughtless, or just taking the piss. I'vew got two awkward ones at the moment, one rude one whom I'm slowly dropping off with, but still coercing money they owe me and another who is trying to take advantage of my generous sense of fairplay, in this case I'm gently putting our business relationship on a much more formal basis.

The way we handle clients is everything, I've known clients that telephone me or email me give me a date and a time and just expect me to turn up. The thought of a contract would frighten the life out of them, others I need the contract signed and agreed before I'll even ink it in the diary, people are all different and IMHO the way you should do business with them should reflect that.

Regards


Roland
Old 15th October 2008
  #36
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Chris Wilson's Avatar
When engineers I know hear about a recordist/live sound guy undercutting the going rate, no one else in the community sends him any more work.
Old 15th October 2008
  #37
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Thumbs down

Quote:
Originally Posted by Corran View Post
How about this: today I just got a gig reduced from $300 to $100 because I'm a student and the department head decided I should do something as part of a "contribution" to our fundraising project.
Whaaat!

They agreed $300 and then reduced it to $100 so you, in fact are *forced* to contribute $200 to funds?

$100 is an insult - walk away and don't do it at all.

Do it once like this and they will take the p*ss forever.

Or - say, as a gesture of goodwill, you will do the recording, but that they will have to supply the recording equipment - they will soon find out that to hire in the equipment is more that your original price and might take you more seriously.
Old 15th October 2008
  #38
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d_fu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roland View Post
It doesn't follow that you would give action overhaul work to your local piano tuner, there are firms that specialize in this kind of work and it might be that being an institution they have gone with a Steinway dealer, I personally can't see any reason that he's got to be pissed at. Quite possibly the women that booked the other firm might not have even known that he was in the market for it.
You may be right in principle, but this is not just someone who happens to know how to tune a piano. In fact, he is someone who professionally "specializes in this kind of work" and has done restoration work on historic instruments for the local university's instrument collection, and the woman in question definitely knows about this and that he is fully capable of doing such a job... Else, I'm sure he would not have been so sincerely pissed...

Quote:
The way we handle clients is everything, I've known clients that telephone me or email me give me a date and a time and just expect me to turn up. The thought of a contract would frighten the life out of them
A lot of my customers are amateur ensembles, there is usually no mention of contracts. By and large, it worked well without over the years (knock on wood).

I would never give anyone my multitrack projects - whose business is it to see how I do my mixes? If anybody wanted multitrack, I would consider parting with the unedited unmixed original files, but I think I'd charge for that, too.

Daniel
Old 15th October 2008
  #39
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Corran's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
Whaaat!

They agreed $300 and then reduced it to $100 so you, in fact are *forced* to contribute $200 to funds?

$100 is an insult - walk away and don't do it at all.

Do it once like this and they will take the p*ss forever.

Or - say, as a gesture of goodwill, you will do the recording, but that they will have to supply the recording equipment - they will soon find out that to hire in the equipment is more that your original price and might take you more seriously.
I'm still trying to decide what to do. They don't have to "hire in" the equipment, the school owns a few mics that will "do the job" but only barely. And your usual couple of guys who think recording stuff is easy and anyone can do it.

I'm only a student one more semester so I'm just trying not to burn any bridges and next year hike my rates about 50% (and of course not take this crap!).
Old 15th October 2008
  #40
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If you value the job at $300 and they value the job at $100, then someone is wrong. I find the best thing to do in these situations is to allow the client find out that it's them. Remind them that there's a difference between cheap recordings and good value recordings.

Are you absolutely confident that your work is worth $300? If so, the only way you lose is by doing the work at the lower fee.

MohThoM
Old 15th October 2008
  #41
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tenor39's Avatar
 

The problem is that most of these so-called musicians and their management wouldn't know good sound if it bit them in the ass. I've lost at least 5 clients over the last 3 years to guys with laptop rigs & 2 or 3 mic's. Most of the time it's a person, family member, or friend of someone in the ensemble that thinks they can do it with the help of Samson, Behringer, and a Dell. I go back to the "trained monkey" analogy. When you don't have people that can discern what good recording is as clients, it's hard to compete with free or close to it.
Old 15th October 2008
  #42
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Speaking personally, I'd rather work in an office than provide either archive recordings or recordings for people that didn't know whether the performance/recording was any good anyway. A few of my repeat clients started out by not knowing what a good recording was, but education goes a long way and I've converted my fair share of citizens into audiophiles.

Leave the monkeys to the peanut counters. Quality doesn't go out of fashion!

MohThoM
Old 15th October 2008
  #43
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d_fu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenor39 View Post
I've lost at least 5 clients over the last 3 years to guys with laptop rigs & 2 or 3 mic's. Most of the time it's a person, family member, or friend of someone in the ensemble that thinks they can do it with the help of Samson, Behringer, and a Dell.
Again, it's good to know this kind of s**t doesn't only happen to me... Made a great sounding recording of Handel's Jephtha for a choir one year, then the next year, someone from the choir records with two cheap mics... Not the only case.

Can't deny I/we started the same way (two mics and a DA-30), but we didn't take over other people's jobs (except once, but we really were a lot better... heh)
Old 15th October 2008
  #44
Gear Addict
 

Bryan,

If you do it for $100, why don't you explicitly makes this a donation of services to the value of $200 and get the appropriate tax documentation so you can at least take the write-off for the difference? That request alone will show them that you know a bit more than they may assume and approach such things as a true professional would.

Just a thought.
Old 15th October 2008
  #45
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VukOnCrack View Post
Bryan,

If you do it for $100, why don't you explicitly makes this a donation of services to the value of $200 and get the appropriate tax documentation so you can at least take the write-off for the difference? That request alone will show them that you know a bit more than they may assume and approach such things as a true professional would.

Just a thought.
Unless you are itemizing and not taking the standard deduction, that does you absolutely no good.

In his case, I would specify a rig and notify them that the cost does not cover use of equipment, let alone labor. They can supply the required rig (and be flexible on comparable equipment- remember you are asking them to supply it) and you'll work once at that rate. In addition, I would burn a CD on the spot and eliminate post production as that just effectively lowers your rate more. As anybody should know, students are the last folks that should be expected to donate to their schools. They have little enough money as is. You also may write a nice, cordial letter to the dean/director/provost of the school and cc it off to the person that runs your music/recording department. Explain in this letter how you appreciate the education you have gotten, but you are very disappointed at the schools conduct when you as a student can least afford it. This will also reflect upon your thoughts in the future when it comes to giving.

As an aside... When I was a student at the University of Southern California, the school stuck it to the students regularly. From fees for recitals to parking and everything... I eventually became so upset at this that I have made a vow never to give the school a cent and never to set foot on campus unless it involves me making money. In close to 10 years since I finished my degree, I have kept my word. It doesn't have to be that way- my undergrad education was fantastic- the school took care of everything from recordings to pianists to play with you on recitals.

Oh well... I digress

Good luck when dealing with your rather stubborn administration.

--Ben
Old 15th October 2008
  #46
Gear Addict
 

Hi, Ben.

Big caveat: I'm not a tax guru and my memory is rusty, but I thought there was a place to account for this in Schedule C for self-employment expenses? But, I concede I could be totally misguided on this. I guess I'll need a refresher sooner than later.
Old 15th October 2008
  #47
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boojum's Avatar
We are agreed that we do get screwed over by clients. But that is mostly folks who are new. With experience that stops. Perhaps this is where we make the decisions to go "full pro." I'd love to hear what the directors are saying about us. LOL

I do pro bono work for a local chorale. I am learning how to record chorales and they are learning how to sing. We are both improving. They offered to pay for the second recording I did and I told them it was my contribution to them. They rarely make expenses; they are just starting under a new and skilled director.

As a pro there can only be one way to work: pay me. As an amateur there is only one way to work: for free. As a semi-pro it is all up for negotiation. That is the gray area. And where the semi-pro is not skilled at all. It is the possible transition from amateur to pro, and with no bargaining or business skills to speak of. In my small town there is no one who does classical and acoustic work. The folks here multi-mic everything with junk mics. Imagine a bunch of SM57spot mic's on a chamber quintet. The one fellow who records classical for the local FM station puts his omnis about 20' apart and 60 - 70' from the chorale or orchestra. Bless him as he makes me look really good.

If I get an offer of a serious paying gig I will have to think about how to approach it as the first time will determine the rest. I love recording for the opportunities it offers me to hear music, meet and be with the creativity of musicians and play with the gear. I am retired and had a windfall - 30' Airstream was a total loss and insured - that allowed me to go out and buy some good gear. I avoid working anybody's turf who is getting paid. And there is a very long learning curve to this. I am finding that what Eargle, Bartlett, Williams and Katz say is all true. I just had to make the mistakes to demonstrate it to myself. Yeah, bonehead. But I am having the joy of doing something I have dreamed about and learning something which is a challenge. And this board is the well I drink from. Hanging around here to listen is just great. This topic has been great. You are all my teachers.

Thanks!
Old 15th October 2008
  #48
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tenor39's Avatar
 

Exclamation

OK, after talking with the GM, here's the bone of contention. They believe that they own, and therefore are entitled to, the master multi-track files because they played the music and paid me to record it. I contend that I own the mechanical license, because the music was recorded on gear that I own, and that they own the intellectual license, because they played the music. I'm not allowed to use the files without their consent or payment for such use and they cannot demand that I give them my master disk for free because I own that and the gear that was used to record it with. Is that about right? Remember, there was no written or verbal contract here, so what is SOP? The GM wants legal precedent from me and I haven't talked to an attorney yet.
Old 15th October 2008
  #49
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I could certainly be wrong (and please chime in if so), but here's my read on this:

1. Mike, you were not formally granted a mechanical license by the composer to record her work. A mechanical license gives you permission to record and distribute her work. At best, you were given informal permission (perhaps just through the orchestra) to record the work for them, which you did. If you held a ML you could sell copies of recordings of her work at a profit.

2. Technically, if they challenge you on holding a ML then tell them that the right thing for you to do is to destroy the master and all copies of the work in your possession.

3. With regard to the master disk, their best argument is that they have rights over the arrangement of bits on the disk, but you are the owner of the physical media itself. If they want that, they need to pay the piper.

Tell them to see "Boogie Nights" ... there's a great scene in the movie that speaks directly to this issue. Here it is:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Daoad5mDdqY

"This isn't an MP, this is a YP ... YOUR problem!"
Old 15th October 2008
  #50
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by tenor39 View Post
OK, after talking with the GM, here's the bone of contention. They believe that they own, and therefore are entitled to, the master multi-track files because they played the music and paid me to record it. I contend that I own the mechanical license, because the music was recorded on gear that I own, and that they own the intellectual license, because they played the music. I'm not allowed to use the files without their consent or payment for such use and they cannot demand that I give them my master disk for free because I own that and the gear that was used to record it with. Is that about right? Remember, there was no written or verbal contract here, so what is SOP? The GM wants legal precedent from me and I haven't talked to an attorney yet.
It is not your role to give legal advice - if he wants legal precedents then he should seek himself.

hughesmr's point 2 is true ...but we're both some bloke on the internets wtf do we know
Old 15th October 2008
  #51
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Corran's Avatar
 

Thanks for the advice guys, but I don't mean to distract from the OP's original problems. As an aside, I am doing it but in a much smaller capacity (it will not be recorded, just live sound) and the guy in charge has heard my complaints.

As for your legal issues, I think hughesmr's arguments sounds good, but we all know "common sense" isn't exactly how the law works.

Good luck...
Old 15th October 2008
  #52
"mechanical license" has nothing to do with your situation and "intellectual license" isn't a legal term i am familiar with.

In the absense of a writen argeement, who owns the tape depends on what reasonable expectations were involved. If this were the first time you worked for them, they might have a strong case for owning the multitracks. However, as I understand it, you have work for them for sometime and never delivered a multitrack- you always delivered a two track (stereo) CDR. If this is true, you may have a case for argueing that the multitrack was a temporary storage mechanism on the way to preparing the final product (the CDR). In which case you own it. But, the temporary thing would have to be taken seriously. You might also be able to argue that the implict agreement was for a CDR (as has been past practice between you and the orchcastra). Any other recording made during the process of providing a CDR are yours, but this I think will be a more difficult agruement. Given the lack of a written agreement, I do not believe there is a cut and dry answer.

No, I am not a lawyer, but I own a record label and have had to deal with such things in the past. the "reasonable expectations" thing comes from personal experience.

My advice- if you want to fight this on principle, hire a lawyer and eat the costs. But I would advise not to fight it. What ever you do, i think you've likely lost a client. but at 10 times ayear, at the rate you stated, that's not much of a lose. either distroy the multitracks (and tell them that) or give it to them (a measure of good will so as to not burn your ties to the communitte) and wash your hands of them. I know there is a certain amount of pride and prestege in working with "the best local orchastra", but this situation ins't worth the blow to your pshycological well being.
Old 15th October 2008
  #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VukOnCrack View Post
Hi, Ben.

Big caveat: I'm not a tax guru and my memory is rusty, but I thought there was a place to account for this in Schedule C for self-employment expenses? But, I concede I could be totally misguided on this. I guess I'll need a refresher sooner than later.
I was told by a tax person (who may or may not be right) that a loss to the business can be reported on Schedule C. If you bill and are then stiffed for the bill, that is a deduction for the business.

Since a university is a charitable organization and the letter is for a charitable gift (required or not), that is deducted under the section of your taxes for charitable gifts. If you deduct less than the standard deduction, then you take the standard deduction.

This has come up once or twice with some of my non-profit clients when they are looking for deals on their recordings. Since I've always taken the standard deduction, I've politely declined.

--Ben
Old 16th October 2008
  #54
Gear Addict
 

Thanks for the response, Ben. What you say sounds credible and likely correct; I wondered about classifying the loss as an advertising expense given a credit in the program, etc.. My sister's a forensic accountant; I could probably get the nitty-gritty from her as she's used to dealing with fraud... er, unique interpretations of tax code. Next time we chat.
Old 16th October 2008
  #55
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I believe that wildplum is correct. I am going to see an entertainment attorney on the 24th, however, just so I know what the legal precedents are. I got an earful from the GM again today about how he has talked to "many of his counterparts" in other orchestras, and how he is right, of course. I also spoke with many other people that work with this group and they all said that they (the orchestra) treat everyone this way. The amount of lies that exaggerations that I've heard from the management now is amazing. I think after the abusive tirade by the Executive Director that I just can't trust these folks anymore. I need to move to a better city.
Old 16th October 2008
  #56
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Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by tenor39 View Post
I believe that wildplum is correct. I am going to see an entertainment attorney on the 24th, however, just so I know what the legal precedents are. I got an earful from the GM again today about how he has talked to "many of his counterparts" in other orchestras, and how he is right, of course. I also spoke with many other people that work with this group and they all said that they (the orchestra) treat everyone this way. The amount of lies that exaggerations that I've heard from the management now is amazing. I think after the abusive tirade by the Executive Director that I just can't trust these folks anymore. I need to move to a better city.
As soon as you go to court or start talking legal terms with a client, forget it, relationship is over!

So lets look at the legal point of view in simple non lawyer point of view. You are required to produce a recording of an event and supply the "management" with 2 CDR masters. That's it, pure and simple. Say you had recorded to dat master, minidisc, etc, these are intermediates, do they own your hard drive? Hell no!

Printers make film, plates, etc, do you get these when you apply for a print job, can you go back and ask for the printing plates, hell no, not unless this what you specify at the begining.

Simple fact is that to give them these files is going to cost extra, it takes time, media and removes your ability to make future profits from repeat work (as it would in the printers plates scenario) hence why they are not "offered" up.

The legal factor that the "management" are telling you is correct only in so far that they own the copyright to their performance, you can't do anything with that master without their express permission. They don't own that version of the recording as that wasn't what you were explicitly contracted to supply. You have fulfilled your contract, anything else is subject to negotiation and additional cost.

Given that the business relationship is over simply tell them that should they require you to do any further work with those files, make copies etc, it's extra to cover your time and effort.

Regards



Roland
Old 16th October 2008
  #57
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Yes, Roland, I believe that what you say is true. I'm mainly going to the attorney to better understand what the SOP is for these sorts of things, not take them to court or file any legal motion.

I agree that I fulfilled my obligation when I gave them the Concert CD, as I have always done. I fail to understand the power play on their part, especially with the product they've been getting from me, but maybe it's just plain old greed and cheapness. This all could have been resolved for a few hundred dollars. Anyway, I believe the working relationship is over, as you said, and know I need to move on. The question is where? Things are tight in the colonies, so I must find other work. I believe I have a lot to offer an organization, but getting there is another story. I'm tired and a bit depressed over this, so forgive my negative mood. It all came upon me so quickly.
Old 16th October 2008
  #58
I'm glad I haven't really been in a situation like this yet.

IF I were in your situation, I would:

- Not give them the masters. If it wasn't in the contract, then you don't owe it to them.
- Not worry about working with them in the future. A large portion of the reason I enjoy recording is because I get to interact with great people. If it's not a nice experience, it's not worth it...
- Write up a contract for future work with other groups.
Old 16th October 2008
  #59
Gear Maniac
 

I wouldn't act swiftly with conclusions about if you should move or if you should stay in recording. As you noted, this came upon you quickly and unexpectedly - it was a bit of a shock, and doesn't feel respectful (because it isn't).

You're feeling hurt, with good reason. Give it some time - several weeks. Don't think about it all of the time. Maybe give yourself an hour a day to brood on it, and when that time is up, you can't think about it anymore that day. The next week, make it half-an-hour.

Reflect on all of the good recordings you've done, and all of the good experiences you've had with other people/recording situations.

These are the kind of experiences that invite one to bitterness, and you don't need to go that direction. You'll be OK. You learned something, unpleasant as it is. It will bring you wisdom down the road. Take some time. Be kind to yourself. The world needs more music.
Old 16th October 2008
  #60
Lives for gear
 

I think a huge part of your problem is that the MD is on the side of the composer, and as a result of this you're getting ganged up on. For myself, aside from not working for the cheap buggers again, I'd probably try and keep it positive - and remind him;

  • About all of the concerts that you've previously enjoyed working on together
  • About all of the fantastic recordings that you've made together
  • About how you completed this project as per your informal agreement in the same manner as all of the previous projects, and that everyone was happy with those
  • That the relationship had, so far, been mutually beneficial
  • That if there were any corrections to be made to the edit, then you would be happy to make them - as it's not just the reputation of the orchestra at stake, it's your reputation as well
  • That you didn't want to have to get bogged down in litigation as a result of this unfortunate episode
  • That you'd worked with other composers in the past (if you have . . . ) and that unless specified none had expected the multitrack masters - as it simply isn't that important to the end-product (it's a means not an end)
  • That your rate was to include equipment, the recording and a single post-production session, and that your (minimal) rate meant that you operated at minimal profit - quid pro quo you do this work because you enjoy it, not because it brings in a lot of money. If you have a minimum wage, how much would it cost after hiring the equipment you take (at competitive rates) to pay you, and is it above the minimum wage?
  • If you hired a taxi driver to take you 5 miles and paid him $20 to do so, you wouldn't own the taxi at the end of the journey . . .
If you make him agree with you on a dozen points before even approaching the issue (get him on side) then you're much more likely to have a friend at the end of it.

Good luck, and don't give out the mults. You'd be selling yourself short, and you'd be fuelling the fire for all of the other MDs your conductor has spoken to (who almost certainly haven't been given mults in the past - they just believe they should have).

MohThoM
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