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paying venues to record there? Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 1st March 2003
  #1
Gear Maniac
 
cleantone's Avatar
 

paying venues to record there?

Whats the deal here? I have a small club in MA tell me they would need $250 to do a multitrack at thier venue. Is this common or even ever happen anywhere else?

This venue is one of 3 exclusive ones in town, all owned by the same money grubbing a-holes. They don't pay thier performers ****, and sometimes split a 2 set show into an eary and late show with a $10-40 charge for EACH set...

So is this a common thing? To pay to take a feed? I can understand renting out the venue for a live album or something but just to take direct outs? WTF?

Maybe I'm clueless.grudge
Old 1st March 2003
  #2
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Ah yes, the "Origination fee". Hey there's a menu.

It's even getting more interesting day by day...

More to come -- I got to motor!
Old 2nd March 2003
  #3
Gear Maniac
 
cleantone's Avatar
 

Can you elaborate Steve?
Old 6th March 2003
  #4
Gear Maniac
 

this should'nt be a problem for the big guys, yet the smaller recordists might not be able to make gigs happen due to this extra surcharge...

perhaps it's the venue's way of keeping out the "amateur" guys who are bringing a jerryrigged setup just trying to make it happen, yet that would really be a shame...
Old 8th March 2003
  #5
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Howdy cleartone,

The "Origination fee" can be very expensive to most folks.

This stuff has been going on for a real long time. In the old days it was only the big venues that had this fee. You know, the marque big name spaces. If you want to use their name, it will cost you. If you don't use their name it will cost you, but not as much.

It's not the rule, but it's happened...

Sometimes the "original fee" has been in place to prevent an outside venture from recording at their space, without the use of the "house" recommended facility. Hey, if you don't use our stuff, we are gonna charge you anyway.

Many times the origination fee is based on the amount of additional personnel that has to be on call to assist you during your recording. And of course, the use of their name in the final product has a fee too. The bigger the name, the bigger the fee.

Small clubs in the old days rarely charged a fee. As time past, more and more venues started to charge a fee. Draw your own conclusions.

IMO, small clubs should be glade you're recording in there place. It would totally build the club's reputation and footing in this arena. There's no place for greedy club owner's, but there's nothing you can do about it except boycotting the venue and/or opening up your own joint and letting tons of bands record in your place for free. Hey, that's a great idea...

Damn, do you have the time and money to make it so? Maybe not, that's why these places charge what they charge. They're the only game in town. Remember, things change. They cannot be the only place in town for long. As they say, payback's a bitch!

I remember when individual technicians charged a fee for letting you interface into their gear. They even had a menu. The club didn't even have a piece of the action. They didn't mind the activity because the techs didn't complain as much about their crappy day rate.

I believe this practice is more about greedy then the venue's way of keeping out the "amateur" recordists. They don't care if you're the best at what you do or not. Economics is the key here!
Old 8th March 2003
  #6
Lives for gear
 
Steve Smith's Avatar
 

I second everything Steve said, I have run into this a bunch, and wehn you are talking about larger performance venues, it can be a bit of a problem... once you get out of clubs and o=into larger spaces, it is sometimes possible to talk em down though.. espically if it is an independant rec..
Old 8th March 2003
  #7
Gear Maniac
 
cleantone's Avatar
 

Thanks guys. This place is weird. The recording was to be used a promo only anyway. They ended up saying that they would look the other way for a 2 track board feed to be mixed with audience mics. Or else we would have not done it I guess.

Now I know!!
Old 9th March 2003
  #8
Gear Maniac
 

It may be shysters and scamsers in the US, but for example, when I go to the Blue Note Jazz clubs in Japan, they have a very very nice room (in Tokyo) - with a Crest V12, and tons and tons of outboard - not to mention the gear that's available - Takamine acoustic guitars, Yamaha drum sets etc etc.

Well, I've done a fair amount of multi track recordings at a few of their venues, but a lot of paper precedes those recordings. We (whomever I'm working with at the time) state explicitly that we are not trying to make a "commercial" venture, and, if it comes to that, we have to work out some type of compensation for the club(s).

I am aware of a few acts that try to roll into a venue, use the mic's and gear (and audience!) to record a song, or an album.

It's not fair that a promoter or a venue be the "executive producer" for a group or artiste's recording, but never realise any of the proceeds.


On the flip side of the coin, I find that sometimes the "union" halls are the most unbearable. We bring in ALL the gear, we're quite capable of flying, stacking, snaking, mic'ing etc - but we gotta have 20 guys do this... +, those gosh darn lunch/washup/dinner/meal breaks do wear me down.

I agree with Steve on how ******** some of these venues used to be on getting anything patched into t heir system.
Old 9th March 2003
  #9
One with big hooves
 
Jay Kahrs's Avatar
Doesn't part of that fee also cover the cost of opening up a bit early so the band and everyone can do a sound check?

One club I work at a lot doesn't have a fee for recording, but they won't let alone take a patch off the console. ****, they don't even let guest engineers bring outboard into the booth. About two years ago a 'head' taper patched into the console and managed to send phantom up the lines destroying the output section of the desk. It was repaired but hasn't been the same since.
Old 9th March 2003
  #10
Lives for gear
 
Steve Smith's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by NYC Drew
It may be shysters and scamsers in the US, but for example, when I go to the Blue Note Jazz clubs in Japan, they have a very very nice room (in Tokyo) - with a Crest V12, and tons and tons of outboard - not to mention the gear that's available - Takamine acoustic guitars, Yamaha drum sets etc etc.
I can't imagine that type of gear being available after 3 gigs in the US, it would probablly end up trashed or stolen..

Quote:
Well, I've done a fair amount of multi track recordings at a few of their venues, but a lot of paper precedes those recordings. We (whomever I'm working with at the time) state explicitly that we are not trying to make a "commercial" venture, and, if it comes to that, we have to work out some type of compensation for the club(s).

I am aware of a few acts that try to roll into a venue, use the mic's and gear (and audience!) to record a song, or an album.

It's not fair that a promoter or a venue be the "executive producer" for a group or artiste's recording, but never realise any of the proceeds.
Totally agree about the promoter, but nor so sure about the venue.. I have never seen a rehersal space, or a landlord for a studio add these charges.. ( well ok, landlords are not the best example... I have a similar beef with artists and labels that try to get multiple records out of the one event without offering additionall compensation to the players and techs involved initally.


Quote:
On the flip side of the coin, I find that sometimes the "union" halls are the most unbearable. We bring in ALL the gear, we're quite capable of flying, stacking, snaking, mic'ing etc - but we gotta have 20 guys do this... +, those gosh darn lunch/washup/dinner/meal breaks do wear me down.

I agree with Steve on how ******** some of these venues used to be on getting anything patched into t heir system.
Loading in to a union hall can be murder.. Luckily here in KC the union is pretty easy to get along with.. NYC on the other hand.. best have the ducks in a really pretty row! A friend of mine ( let's call him Steve #1 so that Steve #3 knows who I mean) Once did a video shoot in NYC and the person he was hired by was taking care of getting hands ( unbenownst to my friend, said hands were not union, as they should have been), ect.. well they arrive on day one, spend 10 hours getting the gear inside, set-up tested, and ready for a 9 am call the following day.. they show up at 8 am to verify a few things and there is a big, neatly stacked pile of thier video equipment disassembled and sitting on the dock with 12 union hands standing nearby!.. the steward walks up to him and says.. " Hey, I heard you guys needed some LOCAL help with unloading a truck?"

He allways makes sure that he ius involved personally with arranging loaders now...
Old 9th March 2003
  #11
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Smith
I can't imagine that type of gear being available after 3 gigs in the US, it would probablly end up trashed or stolen..



Did I mention that they also have a DRES-777?

Quote:
Totally agree about the promoter, but nor so sure about the venue.. I have never seen a rehersal space, or a landlord for a studio add these charges.. ( well ok, landlords are not the best example...


Sorry: Let me clarify, sometimes the owner of the venue is the promoter. And in some of those instances, the venue has no PA/lights rig.

Quote:
I have a similar beef with artists and labels that try to get multiple records out of the one event without offering additionall compensation to the players and techs involved initally.


I had a "falling out " with an act I work with, where we did a remote recording 2yrs back. We actually recorded a rehearsal at the venue, playing a bunch of songs for future use.

Fast forward Dec 2002: Said act is doing a show, and logistics dictate that we have to do a "Track date". We didn't have enough songs for a 1hr show, so the act wants me to use the material to supplement the show. I absolutely refused to do it, unless some arrangement was (at least) made with the band.

Quote:
Loading in to a union hall can be murder.. Luckily here in KC the union is pretty easy to get along with.. NYC on the other hand.. best have the ducks in a really pretty row!...
I'll reserve comment until after my 3/13 gig at Hammerstein ballroom.
Old 9th March 2003
  #12
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Hey NYC Drew,

I remember you mentioning the Blue Note in Japan had a Sony DRES-777 in a past thread. Very cool box to have in a club!

Also, the Hammerstein ballroom in NYC is not a Union hall...

At least not yet. They are trying to make it one for a while now.
Old 9th March 2003
  #13
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Remoteness
Hey NYC Drew,

I remember you mentioning the Blue Note in Japan had a Sony DRES-777 in a past thread. Very cool box to have in a club!
Yeah, they are COMPLETELY tricked out in that venue. Today, an acapella four piece, next week, there a huge Yamaha/Steinway/your pick here grand on stage....

Quote:

Also, the Hammerstein ballroom in NYC is not a Union hall...

At least not yet. They are trying to make it one for a while now.
Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you, Thank you.
Old 9th March 2003
  #14
Gear Maniac
 

Ignore the guy in the forefront....also pic is from 2001...a PM4k was the FOH console then....
Attached Thumbnails
paying venues to record there?-p6080036.jpg  
Old 10th March 2003
  #15
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Come on Drew,

How can I ignore that distinguished gentleman in the foreground anyway?
Old 10th March 2003
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

NYC D,

Do they still have the 4K?
Old 10th March 2003
  #17
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Fuzzy Logic
NYC D,

Do they still have the 4K?
Naa,

They replaced it with the Crest V12

I hate to admit it (liking the 4K and all...) but this board is sonically superior and cleaner than the 4K. Also, it has a "direct out" pot at the top of each strip, which is pre everything except input preamp - and even then, that's configurable too...
Old 10th March 2003
  #18
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

my friends had to pay $3k to record in DC. seemed kinda silly to me at the time considering we hooked everything up and they didnt have to do **** except not run gates to the direct outs on the aux8.\\

no clubs where i live now charge anything that im aware of yet although the orange peel might since it was owned by the guy who owned howling wolf down in new owlins... i guess i will find out eventually when my studio goes remote.
Old 10th March 2003
  #19
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Wow Alpha,

3 grand for a BOARD FEED!! That's nuts.

Are you really going Remote? That's awesome news...

Keep us posted when you make the change. Are you staying portable or building a truck?
Old 10th March 2003
  #20
There is only one
 
alphajerk's Avatar
 

portable. waiting on the sale of my house coupled with OSX versions of DP/MOTU stuff. a new 17" laptop G4 with 2/3x 896's.
Old 10th March 2003
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

Remoteness,

If SONY ever released any kind of (NON MADI) interface for the DMX-R100 that would allow 48 digital I/O through the console, I'd squueze all my stuff in a Chevy Express van in two heartbeats.

A DMX, a pair of MX2424's, 64 ch's A>D and 64ch's mic pre's...a trio of APC Smart UPS 1000's, plus some efx and (minimal) outboard....

Then, I'd be divorced, cuz I'd never go home....

Right now, without MADI you could get a max of 36 (38?) digi I/O thru the R100....

I've already done a few live shows (3 bands) with the R100, and it wasn't too bad - apart from the screen becoming invisible in sunlight conditions!!

Hey Alpha, for $3k, the band could have gotten the biggest rehearsal space in NYC for 8-10 hours, with all the gear they needed (minus multi tracking gear, of course), and still have ...oh, two or so thousand to spare.
Old 11th March 2003
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Steve Smith's Avatar
 

Wow 3 K for a club feed.. shti you could hire a lot of guys trucks for that on the right day...

Drew, you are spot on abouyt the DMX... the way they implemented the dig IO on the comsole is the only bummer ( and bummer is too strong a word anyway)

Alpha, keep us posted on the "evil sounds mobile" sounds cool..



Maybe you could get a hearse to cart gear around!
Old 11th March 2003
  #23
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
Quote:
Originally posted by NYC Drew
Remoteness,

If SONY ever released any kind of (NON MADI) interface for the DMX-R100 that would allow 48 digital I/O through the console, I'd squueze all my stuff in a Chevy Express van in two heartbeats.
Whats wrong with Madi? I have the DMXR-100 with Madi direct to my Pyramix. This system totally rocks!!!! I am only dissapointed that more manufactures haven't adopted the format yet, time to get out of our "banks of eight" mentality.

Anyhow, back to the original thread. Facility fee's can be a real "rip-off".

Last year we did a recording for a DVD live at "Ronnie Scotts" jazz club in London. First of all they charged us a fee. Then 2 weeks before the event they asked for more money for us to be able to record the sound, (like we were going to make a music DVD without audio). Then when we agreed the extra fee's (or rather were strong-armed!) they told us that we couldn't have access to their recording room. IMHO they were the most amatuerish bunch it has ever been my missfortune to have to do business with, this was also the view of the director a 20+ years BBC director. Funny thing was that after the event we approached the club to see if they were interested in having some of the final DVD's for sale in the foyer of the club, only to be accused of not having their permission to film in the club. Fortunate for us we had it detailed in both our formal request to film in the club and their receipt for our money, but it just goes to show.

Sad that you have to enter into these agreements with the view that you need to get all this so well documented or you could face litigation.

Regards



Roland
Old 11th March 2003
  #24
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Roland
Whats wrong with Madi? I have the DMXR-100 with Madi direct to my Pyramix. This system totally rocks!!!! I am only dissapointed that more manufactures haven't adopted the format yet, time to get out of our "banks of eight" mentality.
Roland
Roland baby,

MADI is fine, except, on a $14,000 product, a $2500 MADI card aint ****. Then you figure (at least in the US) 48-56 channels MADI>AES converters are $9~$11K depending on where you go.

So here I am (we are) witht the universally accepted AES/EBU standard, and I have a 48+ch mixer that can't take 48ch of AES IN ANY CONFIGURATION. Even if they had high density connectors (db25 etc), that would work out....

A complete (48-56ch) MADI solution for the R100 - which would allow one to connect to any of the popular HDR's (R-1 not included!) is $13,500 in the USA (MADI card in console + MADI/AES converter)

A new console is only a few parking tickets more or less than that. Herein lies my problem with MADI on the DMX.

Can I have your rig?

'Drew

Old 12th March 2003
  #25
Lives for gear
 
Roland's Avatar
NO YOU CAN'T!!!!! :eek:

lol heh

However , I guess you think I got a good deal getting both my Madi cards for $4,500?

Thought that was cheap to work between my pyramix and the desk! Could do as I have done and keep one of your AES/EBU cards for your Sony (both cards can reside in the Sony at once). My only bone of contention was that more manufacturers haven't taken up this option yet.

Check out RME (rme-audio.com) They have a Madi to Adat lightpipe solution for about $1500. This with the Desk Madi ($2500 I believe you said), is $4,000. This isn't a lot of money, and as more people take up the madi option. Pyramix are working on a 24 channel DSD solution using Madi, I can't wait to see that one!


Regards



Roland
Old 12th March 2003
  #26
Gear Maniac
 

Hi Roland,

I am aware ofthe RME unit. My only problem is, I invested in AES with my HDR's and the R100. I have $3500 or so tied up there. I'll just keep hassling SONY to do the right thing and release a high density AES card for slot4....
Old 18th March 2003
  #27
Lives for gear
 
Steve Smith's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally posted by NYC Drew
I'll reserve comment until after my 3/13 gig at Hammerstein ballroom.
How did it go?
Old 19th March 2003
  #28
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally posted by Steve Smith
How did it go?
Sonically, the recording was ok. Band(s) made a few horrible mistakes - like the bassist being off by 1 1/2 notes for all(?) the opening song...I think he (against by sternest instructions) used a pedal gizmo that made his axe have a very "buzzy" and distorted sound.

PA company set up a pair of EAW KF850 Subs (can't remember if 850 tops also) behind the drummer (who's on a riser). Each and every mic on the rig was THE snare mic, THE kick mic, THE rack mics ...etc etc..

Mostly my fault though, cuz I often work with this PA company as a production/stage mgr, but my role on this day was FOH mixer and multi tracking for ONE act....

...I stood around and set levels (on HDR's) while the 2nd of two acts (headliner) soundchecked for 2hrs and 40 minutes. When I get the stage, I ask: "Who's the Prod Mgr? Who's the Stage Mgr? No conclusive answer. I have the guys start striking the little that we're moving etc etc...

...exactly 10 minutes into our soundcheck I hear thru the talkback on stage"Andrew, you guys have 10 minutes (before doors)..."

Well **** me freddy. I guess wishing back the 45 minutes we're supposed to have is a pipe dream.

...two minutes later, I hear "Doors in two minutes".... I scream at somebody about their math, and wrap up the sound check.

In addition, I'm supposed to meet up with Mike Farrow , another MX2424 user at 39th to check out a scoring session...missed that too...



There's a whole lot of stuff happening in the background. Hypothetically speaking, lets assume that the label for both acts did a video shoot and a 48 track recording of the same show for a upcoming DVD release. Maybe the artist(es) would like to have multi track data (say, for a "Best of Live" CD)- without having to wrangle with the label etc etc. It's more convienent for the artiste to have a SEPARATE multi track recording than to dick with the label people.

A couple of "crossed" tracks. I have 'em all though and in the process of sorting 'em out. There was a HUGE apartment building fire on my block this sunday (3 buildings over same side of street - 100 apartments/300 occupants) . Lost power and access to shop for a few hours, forced downtime till 9am yesterday...assessing if any "smoke" damage. Iwas actually with my kid at the beach (sunday, that is) and my computer(s) called me to tell me the UPS'es had lost power for more than 15 minutes, so I went over there to check it out, and there was a monster fire/traffic jam in progress...
-----
Old 19th March 2003
  #29
Gear Maniac
 

Drew, perhaps you can answer a MX-2424 question...

As far as hard-drive storage goes with the hot-swap bay, has anyone found a way to load those drives into an ATA type Firewire or USB 2.0 enclosure. I use a DAW rig and have firewire hotswap bays, using ATA drives and $20 sleds.

The 2424 can write SD-2 (mac compatible) files, where as the other HDRs on the market can only write broadcast WAVs...

Also was wondering if you transfer drives into a DAW, or just stream your 2424 into your Sony...

thanks
Old 19th March 2003
  #30
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally posted by JayCrouch
Drew, perhaps you can answer a MX-2424 question...

I use a DAW rig and have firewire hotswap bays, using ATA drives and $20 sleds...

thanks
Hello Jay. Welcome to the insomaniacs club.

>As far as hard-drive storage goes with the hot-swap bay, has >anyone found a way to load those drives into an ATA type >Firewire or USB 2.0 enclosure.


1a. Yes, and no. Barry Henderson from IZ Corp (the Radar24 mfgr) was working on a "iSCSI" thing, where you pop a 80Gb (for example) IDE drive in a removable enclosure with an IDE to SCSI bridge.
1b. There have been a few MX owners who are using some sort of hybrid SCSI to Firewire interfaces...will delve deeper.

>The 2424 can write SD-2 (mac compatible) files, where as the >other HDRs on the market can only write broadcast WAVs...


2. I know the MX can do this. If other units can, or cannot do so, I am not aware.

>Also was wondering if you transfer drives into a DAW, or just >stream your 2424 into your Sony...


3. It depends on the project. If I'm the mixer, it stays with me and goes from the MX>DMX via AES/EBU. If someone else is mixing (which is typical), I back up the audio data and ship the hard drive (or DVD-R). For quite a few of the remote recordings (ok, less than 1/4) it's a case where the act simply wnats me to record for posterity - then 6 months later I start getting requests like crazy for the material (culling for ideas, need for rehearsal - new band members, want to put out a live CD, want to assess show etc etc)


Just last week I was discussing with another MX owner the best ways to get data in and out of the MX.

Typically, I use an external (removable bay or bayless) solution, then take the bay to a computer where I can copy to internal HD, burn to DVD/CD/Zip750, upload to network, copy to DDS4 etc etc.

To import into the MX or export from the MX to another app, I usually use the MX View software.
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