The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Tags: , , , , , ,

Live From Daryl's House Dynamic Microphones
Old 22nd March 2017
  #481
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
Yes you are correct! Good ear..... not by choice.
Unfortunately the production team decided to leave me out of the QC part of the episode and I would have caught this in a second!
Normally when I mix the show, I provide a mono mix as a backup for the network (id rather provide one that have it done another way).... the final editor used my mono mix as the final.
I did catch it right away when I saw the broadcast, but people recorded it on their DVR's and by the time the fix got to MTV, IT WAS TOO LATE.

Moral of the story!!!!! ....... QC YOUR WORK IF AT ALL POSSIBLE.......... and you can believe I had a **** fit about it since I was pissed I didnt get to QC this episode and already was bitching that it is a bad policy to leave me out of the process.
I'm confused. Are you saying that you create a mono mix of the entire stereo mix of the show and provide that to the editors and MTV? For the Cheap Trick episode done last year?
Old 22nd March 2017
  #482
Lives for gear
 
PMoshay's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
I'm confused. Are you saying that you create a mono mix of the entire stereo mix of the show and provide that to the editors and MTV? For the Cheap Trick episode done last year?
Yes, I provide a stereo mix and a -6db mono mix (for safety reasons they say at MTV)

If I don't provide it, they will make one and lay it in..... I prefer to deliver it as I have no idea how they do it and would rather hear it myself first.
Old 22nd March 2017
  #483
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
Yes, I provide a stereo mix and a -6db mono mix (for safety reasons they say at MTV)

If I don't provide it, they will make one and lay it in..... I prefer to deliver it as I have no idea how they do it and would rather hear it myself first.
Ok, I think I sort of understand and remember now.

I was actually doing the post mixes last year, and I used your mono mixes for the mono-post mixes. I never used your stereo mixes for the mono post mix. Your music should have gone through untouched.

So what you're saying is that someone at the production company or at MTV chose the mono post-mix of the episode rather than the stereo version? Because I'm guessing you did not provide a mono version of the entire show with the non-music content, right?

As a separate note though: My experience with QC at MTV wasn't the greatest, so I'm not 100% sure I'd look at the production company being the culprit (though that's certainly possible).

Either way, now that I have your ear: I really like your mixes, and I really enjoy the show....
Old 23rd March 2017
  #484
Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
It was ironic that the day after I had a blow out about not being able to QC the show, there was a major blunder!....... sadly it proved my point.
The real drag is that it took a week or so for it to get to air in stereo - by then many people had it DVR'd and mono was on most peoples hard drives.
Hmm. Now I have to go see if I can catch a rerun in stereo.
Old 23rd March 2017
  #485
Lives for gear
 
PMoshay's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
Ok, I think I sort of understand and remember now.

I was actually doing the post mixes last year, and I used your mono mixes for the mono-post mixes. I never used your stereo mixes for the mono post mix. Your music should have gone through untouched.

So what you're saying is that someone at the production company or at MTV chose the mono post-mix of the episode rather than the stereo version? Because I'm guessing you did not provide a mono version of the entire show with the non-music content, right?

As a separate note though: My experience with QC at MTV wasn't the greatest, so I'm not 100% sure I'd look at the production company being the culprit (though that's certainly possible).

Either way, now that I have your ear: I really like your mixes, and I really enjoy the show....
I only provide the music mixes, although sometimes i wish i could do the dialog too as sometimes when it transitions from speaking to music, its about as subtle as a horse with an erection. But then again I'm sure it may not be easy to do as i have not had to do it myself.

It really does not matter where the problem happened because if i would have had the last QC like I've done in the past, i would catch these issues.
I learned the importance of a final QC from Bob Ludwig who has an amazing staff who goes thru every master with a fine tooth comb and marks anything that could be questionable and even if its not a mastering fault, he fixes it.
Bob cares about every little nuance and i feel the same way too. Most mastering people are maniacs over every sample.

Always great to hear people enjoy the show/mixes, i get much satisfaction & joy doing it.... and every show has its own challenges.
Old 23rd March 2017
  #486
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
I only provide the music mixes, although sometimes i wish i could do the dialog too as sometimes when it transitions from speaking to music, its about as subtle as a horse with an erection. But then again I'm sure it may not be easy to do as i have not had to do it myself.
(well, I'm guessing that if you're a music engineer, and a good one at that, then you probably don't want to do dialog/production sound editing....:-)

Unfortunately I never got access to your source material, just what the editors gave me. So when we transitioned from dialog to music I was stuck with whatever I was given, and it really sounded to me like I would sometimes get a different mic on Daryl compared to the one you then ended up using for his vocals. He'd sound super-clean and clear and present in a way an engineer could control when he starts singing, yet at times when I pulled up the tracks for mixing the dialog leading into to music sounded very different. Like different mics were mixed together. I could never figure out just why that was, but I sure wished I'd had just a dump of all the tracks you had at your disposal.

The other issue that was borderline unavoidable was that your mixes sounded like music mixes of a live performance, which is as it should be. So if we wanted to have any kind of dynamic range in the dialog then moving in and out of music was sometimes difficult. If your mix had a quiet intro at the top it was just really hard getting into that because the whole show had to fit -24LKFS. In other words, either the dialog would be "too low" in order to match the music intro, or the music gets raised as a whole to fit the dialog. But then if the song goes up then the entire show goes up on average, meaning that something else has to come down. And if there's one thing viewers hate it's having to ride the level control just because of large loudness differences.

I don't think there's an easy solution to that.

And then as I said, judging from the conversation I had with QC at one point, I wouldn't put it past them messing with dynamics etc.
Old 23rd March 2017
  #487
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
(well, I'm guessing that if you're a music engineer, and a good one at that, then you probably don't want to do dialog/production sound editing....:-)

Unfortunately I never got access to your source material, just what the editors gave me. So when we transitioned from dialog to music I was stuck with whatever I was given, and it really sounded to me like I would sometimes get a different mic on Daryl compared to the one you then ended up using for his vocals. He'd sound super-clean and clear and present in a way an engineer could control when he starts singing, yet at times when I pulled up the tracks for mixing the dialog leading into to music sounded very different. Like different mics were mixed together. I could never figure out just why that was, but I sure wished I'd had just a dump of all the tracks you had at your disposal.

The other issue that was borderline unavoidable was that your mixes sounded like music mixes of a live performance, which is as it should be. So if we wanted to have any kind of dynamic range in the dialog then moving in and out of music was sometimes difficult. If your mix had a quiet intro at the top it was just really hard getting into that because the whole show had to fit -24LKFS. In other words, either the dialog would be "too low" in order to match the music intro, or the music gets raised as a whole to fit the dialog. But then if the song goes up then the entire show goes up on average, meaning that something else has to come down. And if there's one thing viewers hate it's having to ride the level control just because of large loudness differences.

I don't think there's an easy solution to that.

And then as I said, judging from the conversation I had with QC at one point, I wouldn't put it past them messing with dynamics etc.
So, Peter, when you're mixing the music, do you keep the -24LKFS limits in mind? And if not, Mattias, do you guys alter the dynamics of the music tracks or just lower them overall as needed to keep your target loudness?

I ask because when I've taken the show from my DVR into the DAW, I found that in general there was LOTS of headroom - in fact, when it comes over the air the show seems significantly quieter than other content. I wondered if that's because there was an effort to meet peak level goals without messing up the dynamics.
Old 23rd March 2017
  #488
Lives for gear
 

When you talk about lots of headroom and it being significantly quieter, are you talking about the music mixes or the other stuff, or between the two, or all of it?

(I don't "remaster" Pete's mixes. I was obviously told not to, and even if I wasn't I would respect his decisions and the decision of Daryl to work with Pete.)
Old 23rd March 2017
  #489
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattiasnyc View Post
When you talk about lots of headroom and it being significantly quieter, are you talking about the music mixes or the other stuff, or between the two, or all of it?

(I don't "remaster" Pete's mixes. I was obviously told not to, and even if I wasn't I would respect his decisions and the decision of Daryl to work with Pete.)
Pretty much all of it. When I play back the show (just checked the Daughtry episode) from my DVR and take the digital output through D/A and into my mixer, I get peaks around -18dBFS. By contrast, on other TV shows I may see peaks at -8dBFS. So the raw numbers for the peaks may be off due to the DA/AD pass, but the difference will be accurate.

The show sounds great, and the dialog/music levels match well. I'm just wondering if you have set standards for max peak level as well as loudness, or if somewhere along the line there's some master gain reduction taking place.

I'm doing a cablecast "radio" show and I have asked our engineer about the standards for max audio levels on the networks we feed and if there's gain processing between the time the signal leaves the console in the studio and the time it's fed to the cable networks. Haven't gotten an answer yet.

I want to understand this better so that when I produce product it will be compliant with standards/practices and not get stepped on by downstream processing.

It would be interesting to compare what Peter ships as the music mix and what we get on our DVRs at the end of the chain.
Old 23rd March 2017
  #490
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
Pretty much all of it. When I play back the show (just checked the Daughtry episode) from my DVR and take the digital output through D/A and into my mixer, I get peaks around -18dBFS. By contrast, on other TV shows I may see peaks at -8dBFS. So the raw numbers for the peaks may be off due to the DA/AD pass, but the difference will be accurate.

The show sounds great, and the dialog/music levels match well. I'm just wondering if you have set standards for max peak level as well as loudness, or if somewhere along the line there's some master gain reduction taking place.
All I can tell you is that the levels you mention above are not what my delivered mix was at. I would have to dig it up, but I think the specs were -24LKFS and -6dBTP (True Peak), and that's what the shows were mixed to.

In addition, especially with shows such as this one, average loudness and possibly "short term" are more interesting measurements to use. The problem with peaks that are lower than "expected" is that they're technically pretty much never out of spec, since specs define only maximum peaks. Defining a minimum peak wouldn't make sense because it would beg the question of "how many" which in turn really just turns into an issue of average loudness, for which there already is a parameter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
I'm doing a cablecast "radio" show and I have asked our engineer about the standards for max audio levels on the networks we feed and if there's gain processing between the time the signal leaves the console in the studio and the time it's fed to the cable networks. Haven't gotten an answer yet.

I want to understand this better so that when I produce product it will be compliant with standards/practices and not get stepped on by downstream processing.
Unfortunately I find that trying to get specific information about what processing takes place in the broadcast chain is just a waste of time. In addition I don't think it really matters broadly speaking because the specs are what they are and all should comply to them. If everyone complies with specs then the broadcaster should treat all content the same and it should all come out about the same (I'm talking about TV now). I also think it should be the producer's job to get all specifications necessary for all distribution channels he's expecting to deliver to, and then get that to us engineers. We're not the ones selling and making deals with distributors so it's unreasonable for us to also do that job.

But as you can see from your experience and from what Pete said once the mixes leave our hands we no longer have control over it. If they can manage to broadcast a mono instead of stereo they're certainly capable of dropping the level of it as well..... :-(

Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
It would be interesting to compare what Peter ships as the music mix and what we get on our DVRs at the end of the chain.
I would be upset if their chain messed with his music mixes.
Old 23rd March 2017
  #491
Lives for gear
 
Ephi82's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
Thank You! I'm always happy to hear that people enjoy the show and appreciate the sound quality.
I always embrace the room and the bleed from so many open Mics. But doing so, I do spend the first few hours of the mix experimenting with phase on all the Mics.

I plan in doing a youtube video series on my approach to live recording & mixing and showing in detail the process & way of thinking.....because it definitely goes hand & hand specially these days when many people record & mix their own projects like me.
Ive had decades of trial & error and also gone from recording live to cassette thru todays modern recording and every step in between.

One thing I never did was copy anyones style when doing this show, Ive always wanted to be transparent to the music and do all I can to get it to the point where you could "really hear" everyone doing what they do in the room.
Funny, I have some live stuff that I did to TASCAM 4 track cassette that actually sounds pretty good from a performance capture perspective. 1= vocals 2= R guit 3= lead 4= drums and bass, obviously mono. Limited palette, but sometimes that forces tough but great creative decisions.
Old 25th March 2017
  #492
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by PMoshay View Post
Always great to hear people enjoy the show/mixes, i get much satisfaction & joy doing it.... and every show has its own challenges.
Peter,

I finally just listened to Kenny Loggins jamming with Daryl and the band. I know, I was asking for him for a while.

And I was not disappointed! Maybe my favorite episode? Well I'm biased, always been such a fan of Kenny's.

Truly great, and Danny's Song, perfect!
Old 2nd May 2017
  #493
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

So I have my ticket to the Hall & Oates / Tears For Fears concert next week in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Hard to believe, but this band is still filling stadiums 40 plus years later!
Old 2nd May 2017
  #494
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sounds Great View Post
So I have my ticket to the Hall & Oates / Tears For Fears concert next week in St. Paul, Minnesota.

Hard to believe, but this band is still filling stadiums 40 plus years later!
I'm going to Hoagie Nation to seem them (and others) in Philly in a few weeks. Gonna be a great time!
Old 2nd May 2017
  #495
Lives for gear
 
PMoshay's Avatar
 

Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by TMetzinger View Post
I'm going to Hoagie Nation to seem them (and others) in Philly in a few weeks. Gonna be a great time!
There's nothing like a Philly crowd for a Hall & Oates show! .... plus added beer & Hoagies? Sounds like a great time.
Old 4th May 2017
  #496
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Worth the wait.

Last edited by Sounds Great; 12th May 2017 at 06:34 AM..
Old 12th May 2017
  #497
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Wow, what a show. Hall & Oates sound better than ever.

Fabulous concert!
Old 7th August 2017
  #498
Gear Maniac
 

I read earlier that you said your going to make a video of the setup used for recording is there a video available?
Old 16th September 2017
  #499
Here for the gear
 

Daughtry

I really like the episode where Daughtry joins in for Out of Touch. The arrangement is a little different, especially around the keys. But the bit that I like the best is at the of the song ends, Daughtry exclaims because he's pumped and Daz laughs because he's liked what he's heard and been a part of it as well. I think that's the moment musos chase and it was nice to see play out.
Old 16th September 2017
  #500
Gear Guru
 
Sounds Great's Avatar
 

Chris, is that you?
New Reply Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook  Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter  Submit Thread to LinkedIn LinkedIn  Submit Thread to Google+ Google+  Submit Thread to Reddit Reddit 
 
Topic:
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Martin Hughes / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music and Location Recording
14
gizeh12 / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music and Location Recording
15
BradM / Studio building / acoustics
44
Jamz / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music and Location Recording
90

Forum Jump
Forum Jump