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Planning violin session, considering unusual arrangement Effects Pedals, Units & Accessories
Old 10th September 2007
  #1
Gear Maniac
 

Talking Planning violin session, considering unusual arrangement

I was looking for the right forum to post this question, and this thread seemed germane.
I only do classical recording. Often when I need to mic solo violin with orchestra I use dpa 4003 with bullet nosecone + millennia hv-3 (need to use 130v phantom). And fold it lightly into the main mix, which is predominantly a stereo pair.

I have a solo (bach) violin recording coming up in a few days and am considering a somewhat unusual approach. The performance will be in a medium church, marble and wood. Not a huge cathedral. I have not been in the space, unfortunately, and won't be able to listen until I'm already there. I am flying in the night before.

I had a kind of crazy idea:
4003's with balls or nosecones (depending on brightness or woodiness of the acoustic), spaced relatively wide
MK4 ortf in middle, slightly closer to soloist (a few inches closer only)
(I will bring 2 ch. millennias, 2 ch. lavry blue pres and a/d, and a ULN-2, so I'll have an extra pair of a/d and pre if something goes kaput)
My concept is that I can thus control the relative direct/reverberant mix by mixing in more or less of the spaced omnis vs/ ortf.

The sound I'm going for is warm but with all the churchy tail and swirl I can muster, but not swimming in it. I want the image to be stable and crystal clear.

Some practical considerations I need to consider:
-I have little load-in / setup time, so putting both pairs on my bogen t-bar on my tall manfreddo stand would be a convenience and efficiency factor; I will have time to find the right placement, but not experiment with several totally disparate approaches.
-I have a custom 200' 4-pair AES snake that would fit the bill nicely, and simplify my cabling needs. But if I'm going to use this nice cable for mics, then I want to have the mics pretty close together, since adding little extensions would defeat the purpose of using the higher-quality cable
-these are the mics I own; if I wanted to use ribbons i'd need to rent
-2 pair are better than one for me in this case. If I find that I can get just the right blend with just the one pair, I can jettison the unused tracks in the final edit. But I want lots of control after the fact.
-There will be another performance next year, and a patch session after that to complete the disc, so I need to nail the sound the first time around.

I look forward to a lot of stimulating ideas and opinions. Thanks in advance,
Jamey Lamar
Welcome to Art Music Recording
Old 10th September 2007
  #2
Lives for gear
 
d_fu's Avatar
 

Hi,

I really think this should deserve a separate thread, not just a hijack...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jglamar View Post
My concept is that I can thus control the relative direct/reverberant mix by mixing in more or less of the spaced omnis vs/ ortf.
The sound I'm going for is warm but with all the churchy tail and swirl I can muster, but not swimming in it. I want the image to be stable and crystal clear.
Sounds like a good concept to me.

You might want to consider a more or less widely spaced Straus setup, see e.g. this thread of mine... If you want all mics on one bar, I wouldn't consider two pairs of different stereo base a good idea. Of course, you could place an ORTF pair close up and an ambient omni pair further back...

Daniel
Old 10th September 2007
  #3
Gear Maniac
 

Planning violin session, considering unusual arrangement

I have a solo (bach) violin recording coming up in a few days and am considering a somewhat unusual approach. The performance will be in a medium church, marble and wood. Not a huge cathedral. I have not been in the space, unfortunately, and won't be able to listen until I'm already there. I am flying in the night before.

I had a kind of crazy idea:
4003's with balls or nosecones (depending on brightness or woodiness of the acoustic), spaced relatively wide
MK4 ortf in middle, slightly closer to soloist (a few inches closer only)
(I will bring 2 ch. millennias, 2 ch. lavry blue pres and a/d, and a ULN-2, so I'll have an extra pair of a/d and pre if something goes kaput)
My concept is that I can thus control the relative direct/reverberant mix by mixing in more or less of the spaced omnis vs/ ortf.

The sound I'm going for is warm but with all the churchy tail and swirl I can muster, but not swimming in it. I want the image to be stable and crystal clear.

Some practical considerations I need to accommodate:
-I have little load-in / setup time, so putting both pairs on my bogen t-bar on my tall manfreddo stand would be a convenience and efficiency factor; I will have time to find the right placement, but not experiment with several totally disparate approaches.
-I have a custom 200' 4-pair AES snake that would fit the bill nicely, and simplify my cabling needs. But if I'm going to use this nice cable for mics, then I want to have the mics pretty close together, since adding little extensions would defeat the purpose of using the higher-quality cable
-these are the mics I own; if I wanted to use ribbons i'd need to rent
-2 pair are better than one for me in this case. If I find that I can get just the right blend with just the one pair, I can jettison the unused tracks in the final edit. But I want lots of control after the fact.
-There will be another performance next year, and a patch session after that to complete the disc, so I need to nail the sound the first time around.

I look forward to a lot of stimulating ideas and opinions. Thanks in advance,
Jamey Lamar
Welcome to Art Music Recording

PS - an update: I originally posted this query in another thread, but it was suggested (rightly) that it belonged in a thread of its own.
PPS - d_fu made a great suggestion of the Straus approach. I haven't used it but it looks perfect for what I'm describing, perhaps avoiding potential problems with overlapping stereo image... anyone have experience using this approach with solo violin?
Old 10th September 2007
  #4
Lives for gear
 
d_fu's Avatar
 

Hi,

I've moved my reply from the other thread over here...

Quote:
Originally Posted by jglamar View Post
My concept is that I can thus control the relative direct/reverberant mix by mixing in more or less of the spaced omnis vs/ ortf.
The sound I'm going for is warm but with all the churchy tail and swirl I can muster, but not swimming in it. I want the image to be stable and crystal clear.
Sounds like a good concept to me.

You might want to consider a more or less widely spaced Straus setup, see e.g. this thread of mine... If you want all mics on one bar, I wouldn't consider two pairs of different stereo base a good idea. Of course, you could place an ORTF pair close up and an ambient omni pair further back...

Daniel
Old 10th September 2007
  #5
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu View Post
Of course, you could place an ORTF pair close up and an ambient omni pair further back...
Just want to reiterate what I said in my original post about the aes snake; if the mic pairs are more than a few inches apart I would need extensions. I don't think that would be too detrimental though.
Old 10th September 2007
  #6
Gear Addict
 
springer's Avatar
 

Sounds like 2 ribbons in MS to me...
Vary distance to performer for more or less swim, tail, etc... then you can add depth with the side in post.
For a single instrument, this has become my standard practice as with ORTF and Spaced you don't get to adjust the source as fine.
Old 10th September 2007
  #7
Lives for gear
 

Pretty good idea- I'd do something similar- probably a main pair in closer and a second spaced pair out a few feet further and higher to allow for ambience with a touch of the main sound to control the room.

I'd be more concerned with the mic placement than the cable type. If your mics aren't in a good spot, it really doesn't matter what kind of cable you are running. 10-20' of a lesser cable isn't going to ruin your sound. You'd probably get more sonic mileage by putting your preamps at the mics and running line level back to your control room than by running long mic cables.

--Ben
Old 11th September 2007
  #8
Lives for gear
 

Maybe record the two pairs on separate tracks if possible, to
compare them, if they are that close together. One of the pairs
might sound better than both together.
Old 11th September 2007
  #9
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by aracu View Post
One of the pairs
might sound better than both together.
Thanks, yes. I said the same thing in my original post. This flexibility after the fact is a salient benefit of the 2-pair approach. If I had more time for experimentation in the setup I might only bring 2 mics.
Old 11th September 2007
  #10
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
4003's with balls or nosecones (depending on brightness or woodiness of the acoustic), spaced relatively wide
MK4 ortf in middle, slightly closer to soloist (a few inches closer only)
Quote:
Of course, you could place an ORTF pair close up and an ambient omni pair further back...
In my experience, it is much better to have outriggers omnis CLOSER than any ORTF or Blumlein pairs, to make sure both pairs are measuring the same direct sound to reverb ratio and perspective.

I think this number is correct, too lazy to look it up, but a cardioid or fig 8 mic can be 1.7 times further back from the source to pick up the same direct to reverb ratio as an omni.
Old 11th September 2007
  #11
Lives for gear
 
d_fu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
In my experience, it is much better to have outriggers omnis CLOSER than any ORTF or Blumlein pairs, to make sure both pairs are measuring the same direct sound to reverb ratio and perspective.
Makes little sense to me, I must admit... If I apply an extra pair for ambience, I don't even want that same ratio, I want the ambience/reverb...

Daniel
Old 11th September 2007
  #12
Lives for gear
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu View Post
Makes little sense to me, I must admit... If I apply an extra pair for ambience, I don't even want that same ratio, I want the ambience/reverb...


Daniel
Understood. But I think "ambience" is not wanted from outriggers in the subject of this thread, a lot of rooms are not good enough to record their ambience. In Ivo's case, there are two pairs that need to be combined in a small room (no ambience) to get the best flavour combination (ribbon and condenser) of two mic pairs and to get the best of both worlds from a spaced pair and a coincident pair.
Old 11th September 2007
  #13
Lives for gear
 
d_fu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
In Ivo's case
That's the problem with thread hijacks... I wasn't referring to Ivo's case. We should have continued this in the other thread. Maybe someone can merge these posts with it...
Old 12th September 2007
  #14
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu View Post
Hi,

I really think this should deserve a separate thread, not just a hijack...

Daniel
You got it baby!

I copied and move the old thread's "hijacked" posts and thes new discussion here.

Thanks for the advice!

Carry on, foks.
Old 12th September 2007
  #15
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
Aesthetically, there is an argument against a Bach recording of solo violin with a lot of ambience. Because I subscribe to this aesthetic, I recommend recording multi-track with the violin spot being a stereo ribbon mic pick-up. I'm talking about two ribbon mics, not a stereo ribbon mic. Coles come to mind.

The ORTF pair sounds like a good start, but omni outriggers here are a curiousity since you don't know about the room.

In any case, I would not want to be without a closer in stereo pick-up since articulation is important as is the possibility that you may want to *minimize* the room later on.
Old 12th September 2007
  #16
Gear Maniac
 

Thank you for your input, Plush. In my original post I thought that made it clear I would be multitracking, just for the reason you point out: control after the fact. I am of the same mind as you (who isn't?) that the right balance of direct to reflected sound is the goal. Too much of one or the other would be... too much.

My Schoeps in ORTF is still my simplest choice for the main pair. They are mine and I know them; I would need to rent the Coles if I were going to go that route. But hey, I could be convinced to do that. (My Millennia pres and Lavry Blue a/ds would make a nice chain, hmm...)

Anyone care to post a sample of a good violin recorded with 2 Coles? Perhaps in a church?

4040s or 4038s for this? (I would think 4040s... dang hard to get ahold of by rental, though)

Any reason anyone could think of that I wouldn't bring along my 4003s for outriggers in any case? After all, if the room is flattering, or if I find the right spot/spacing/grid, etc., they could be the only pair I need.

Thanks in advance for your responses.
Old 12th September 2007
  #17
Lives for gear
 
d_fu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
I copied and move the old thread's "hijacked" posts and thes new discussion here.
But now there are still two threads... Maybe you could merge this thread here with this one...
Old 12th September 2007
  #18
Gear Nut
 
brle's Avatar
 

Hi,
this DVD will maybe interest you - "Gidon Kremer - Back To Bach" Gidon Kremer - Back To Bach DVD Movie
I saw it last month on tv and it contains very interesting shoots from recording session with Bach solo-violin works in a church in Lockenhaus (Austria).

Sascha
Old 12th September 2007
  #19
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu View Post
But now there are still two threads... Maybe you could merge this thread here with this one...
I did merge them, I just forgot to delete the extra threadage!

It will be history any second now...
Old 12th September 2007
  #20
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
I think I am misunderstood.

I'm saying use your Schoeps ORTF pair and SPOT MIC the violin with two coles ribbons.
You could even use your omni outriggers as well. Coles on violin take the edge off and provide a silky and liquid detail.

Shame on the record company for not allowing a test recording and leisurely set-up.
Old 12th September 2007
  #21
Gear Maniac
 

Yes, I did misunderstand, that's not what I thought you were suggesting at all.. in fact I'm still not quite clear. You're suggesting that the ortf pair be further back for ambience? Or rather as a main pair with the Coles, though closer, lower in the mix (in which case I'm having trouble envisioning how close to one another the 2 pairs would be)? I don't usually find myself blending two near-coincident patterns when the sound source is so small. A main orchestra pair might be mixed with a ww pair but that's a different ball of wax...

I really would rather not bring six channels of everything to the gig - I would like to stick to four.

Many thanks for the interesting feedback. I thought about responding by pm, but thought others might benefit from the discussion.
Old 12th September 2007
  #22
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
Greetings Mr. Lamar,

I'll be pleased to tell you what I am talking about.

I'm saying use your original idea with the ORTF pair as your main pair and mic the violin, in stereo, with two Coles ribbons. If the room is good, add your omni mics. Use your main pair as usual picking up the width of the stage and wherever the violin is standing/sitting.

Then, use a pair of Coles or similar to mic the violin in your standard spot micing arrangement. (however you like to do it--eg. 2-3 feet above and to the side of the violin.) The Coles pair would not be in ORTF, they would be two mics on a small stereo bar.

The reason I suggest to mic the violin in stereo is because when the spots are blended into your main stereo pick-up, the stereo picture will not collapse. You are left with more control than only depending on moving the playa closer to your main array.

You have the option of blending in the Coles with panning such as ORTF hard left and right with 1 Coles mic at 9 o'clock and another at just left of center. ( or one at hard left and the other at 9'o clock.)

Since you are travelling I can understand the wish to travel relatively light. My suggestion is bring your mics and rent everything else as required in the area.

This is also a way to gauge whether the record company you are working for is for real or not. If they give you a hard time about reimbursing you for your rented gear, then you know that they will continue to abuse you until you have had enough. Then they will move on to the next victim.
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