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What are you listening on? Studio Monitors
Old 12th September 2007
  #31
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Plush's Avatar
When sound on stage is increased by an intensity of 10,000, the meter is deflected by approx. 40dB.

Loudest orchestral level must hover somewhere around 110dB.

So, both in actual volume handling capability and dynamic range reproduction, many speakers listed here can reproduce an orchestra realistically.

The vast majority of orchestral literature does not reach these extremes. Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky and Prokofiev included.

Besides, we are not bringing an orchestra into someone's living room. We are creating a realistic illusion that one is listening to an orchestra.

The argument that a super system is required to monitor orchestra is specious.
If the above is not true, how did Decca monitor the Solti Ring in 1963 on, what are to us these days, a relatively primitive system?
Old 12th September 2007
  #32
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Studio: JBL 4208, HH Scott A436 amplifier

On-Location recording: JBL 6208

Computer: Altec computer speakers
Old 12th September 2007
  #33
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d_fu's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
The vast majority of orchestral literature does not reach these extremes. Rachmaninoff, Tchaikovsky and Prokofiev included.
Want dynamics...? Try an accordion... I once recorded someone playing Cage, Satie, etc. on an accordion, and he reached an actual musical dynamic range of about 50 (!) dB... And the mics weren't even very close up, it was a pair of AKG 451s with CK5 capsules, about two or three meters above. Amazing sound, btw...

Daniel
Old 12th September 2007
  #34
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Plush's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by d_fu View Post
Want dynamics...? Try an accordion... I once recorded someone playing Cage, Satie, etc. on an accordion, and he reached an actual musical dynamic range of about 50 (!) dB... And the mics weren't even very close up, it was a pair of AKG 451s with CK5 capsules, about two or three meters above. Amazing sound, btw...

Daniel
Certainly an abberation! You have my condolences for having to listen to this loud accordian. Bandoneon??--a different story.
Old 12th September 2007
  #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
Certainly an abberation! You have my condolences for having to listen to this loud accordian.
Not required at all... This was in fact an amazing performance and great music. One of my favourite recordings to this day... Want a sample? heh
Old 12th September 2007
  #36
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Living room: MG111A Magnepans on top of VMPS big subs.
Den: B&W 801 Nautilus
Dining: KLH model one (the old ones from 1979, three way with the bass computer, I love them).
Kitchen: KLH model three (also with the bass computer, but just a two way) and a Swedish B2-40 ace bass powered subwoofer I found in the trash at A&M that I put KRK woofers in.
Office: Yamaha NS-10S
Outside: Cambridge sound works Mick Fleetwood Model Twelve.
Bedroom: Some weird speakers that were made when Alpine was thinking of getting into home speakers and left them behind at a photo shoot at Conway.
Any suggestions for the bathroom?? HAR DE HAR!!
Old 13th September 2007
  #37
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@ Home: Triangle Titus speakers powered with Quad II monoblocks

@ Studio: Genelec 1031A and Auratone powered with Yamaha M40

On the road: AKG 241 or Sennheiser HD25sp (But i'm not satisfied with both of them, i'm looking for new ones, i usually work as live FOH engineer and really like my collegues's HD25 - They are very common here).

Best regards, Noam.
Old 13th September 2007
  #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post
When sound on stage is increased by an intensity of 10,000, the meter is deflected by approx. 40dB.

Loudest orchestral level must hover somewhere around 110dB.
I'm assuming that by 'hover' you mean RMS? As far as I remember, an orchestra is capable of nearly 140dB _peaks_ on a good day..... maybe we are talking about different weightings....?

With the compression & distortion I hear on orchestral recordings these days, I just wonder how people are monitoring.... I assume quietly.

It's amazing what kind of distortion can pass itself off as 'detail' at low listening levels.....

....of course a great recording can be made with no monitoring.

Andy
Old 13th September 2007
  #39
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NetworkAudio's Avatar
140db in the reverberant field?

When is the last time you saw an audience member cover their ears?
It happens (I have seen it twice in 10 years), but it is rarely a sound one would want to reproduce.

Orchestral recording is more about capturing colour than reproducing sounds in the 100db+ range.
Old 13th September 2007
  #40
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sonare's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_simpson View Post
....of course a great recording can be made with no monitoring.
I cannot agree with this. Yes, some sort of signal can be captured by only visually confirming that SOMETHING (music plus hum and hash?) is going to tape, hard drive, CD, flash drive, etc. Perhaps even a good recording on your luckiest day.

GREAT? I think not. All the planets must align AND have good monitors for anyone to do that!

Rich
Old 14th September 2007
  #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klaukholm View Post
140db in the freefield?

When is the last time you saw an audience member cover their ears?
It happens (I have seen it twice in 10 years), but it is rarely a sound one would want to reproduce.

Orchestral recording is more about capturing colour than reproducing sounds in the 100db+ range.
Not in the free-field but in the reverberant (diffuse) field. Anechoic orchestra would be pretty strange to listen to.

My ears were ringing (I sat some 100ft away) after the previously mentioned Moscow State performance and I saw several people cover their ears.

However, in my experience, single loud peaks do not cause people to cover their ears. Rather, loud RMS causes them to cover their ears.

There is a very big difference between RMS and peak (ie. crest factor) and for orchestral music this crest factor can be really huge.

I just had a quick look on the 'net and there is certainly plenty of confusion but I found several sites saying something like this one:

H.E.A.R. | Are You At Risk? | Hearing Education and Awareness for Rockers

Andy
Old 14th September 2007
  #42
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mrsteaks's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonare View Post
I cannot agree with this. Yes, some sort of signal can be captured by only visually confirming that SOMETHING (music plus hum and hash?) is going to tape, hard drive, CD, flash drive, etc. Perhaps even a good recording on your luckiest day.

GREAT? I think not. All the planets must align AND have good monitors for anyone to do that!

Rich
Agreed!!! I got lucky ONCE when I forgot to pack my cans for a recital I did. I didn't know the room, either. When I got back to the studio and listened, there was no hum, no noise, just music. Pure, blind, luck. The cans are the first thing to go in the car - I wouldn't do a recording again without them. Might as well forget the mics!
Old 14th September 2007
  #43
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NetworkAudio's Avatar
When an orchestra is getting that effect something is wrong IMO.
Either the hall is not right for the reportoire - something which often happens on tours. I once saw prokofiev 5th in a 650 capacity hall and it was an unfortunate marriage of rep and hall.

The other scenario is silly orchestral playing, a rather frequent phenomenon.
Those kind of db ratings mainly come from treble instruments. Orchstral bass instruments are not capable of matching that kind of output and the result is an unbalanced sound (I know one exception, the excellent tubaplayer in the Iceland Orchestra). A well balanced orchestra generates highpoints from a big deep sound not from the piccolo, Eb and perc.

For what it is worth our music director/ chief conductor is the former chief in moscow, Sinaisky. I must say I love the approach of this school of russian conductors.
Old 14th September 2007
  #44
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
I'm with you folks on this one.

You're relying only on faith rather then aural varification.

I will never be comfortable about capturing music that way.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonare View Post
I cannot agree with this. Yes, some sort of signal can be captured by only visually confirming that SOMETHING (music plus hum and hash?) is going to tape, hard drive, CD, flash drive, etc. Perhaps even a good recording on your luckiest day.

GREAT? I think not. All the planets must align AND have good monitors for anyone to do that!

Rich
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrsteaks View Post
Agreed!!! I got lucky ONCE when I forgot to pack my cans for a recital I did. I didn't know the room, either. When I got back to the studio and listened, there was no hum, no noise, just music. Pure, blind, luck. The cans are the first thing to go in the car - I wouldn't do a recording again without them. Might as well forget the mics!
Old 14th September 2007
  #45
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At home: Castle 'Winchester', Naim Audio pre, Bryston 4B
Studio: Tannoy System 12DMT, Bi-amped Bryston 4B's
Location: JBL Century 100, Klarke Teknik DN360, Bryston 3B/ AKG K240DF Headphones
Compurter: Alesis .7 near field, Bryston 2B, Yamaha Sub
Old 14th September 2007
  #46
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Despite all this monitoring heaven, one is only as good as one's last CD.
Old 14th September 2007
  #47
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Truthfully, most of the time...I listen first on my trusty sennheiser px100 headphones that I use all the time for my iPod and as another close reference for my mixes.

Sometimes I will listen later on my Dynaudio Air 15's and Adam S3a's

Old 16th September 2007
  #48
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huub's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim vanBergen View Post
In my studio or on the road, I monitor on:

Genelec 1029s, 1032's

Dynaudio BM5's

Audix N5's

Meyer HD1s...

But these computer clips? I listen to them on ****TY COMPUTER SPEAKERS, sometimes I use Sennneiser Noise Cancelling Headphones, sometimes HD280 cans, sometimes Sony 7506's. NEVER on my Grados.

I have never heard a clip from GS that I thought needed to be downloaded off the drive, converted to AIFF, & processed thru a pristine D/A converter for aesthetic judgement. Am I the only one?

Great thread. Anyone want to edit their original posts to include how they listen to the demo files posted here on GS?

JvB
Errrm, yes okay, true.. the mp3's on gs: macbook speakers, sometimes if i'm bothered,
bose quietcomfort cans..
Old 17th September 2007
  #49
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CORDA Hedamp-2 MkII, Ultrasone Proline650 for remote and homework.
Old 26th September 2007
  #50
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Cut It Live's Avatar
 

Monitors

Still love the NS-10's.... with a Perreaux amp.....(Ducking from flying objects being thrown now)......along with Genelec 1031's.


Someone above mentioned the Audix N5....That's a really nice sounding set of nearfields.
Old 29th September 2007
  #51
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Quote:
Originally Posted by klaukholm View Post
When an orchestra is getting that effect something is wrong IMO.
Either the hall is not right for the reportoire - something which often happens on tours. I once saw prokofiev 5th in a 650 capacity hall and it was an unfortunate marriage of rep and hall.

....
You do have a good point.

I was on an orchestral recording session a few days ago where the room was a performance space 'designed' to hold 500 people + orchestra.

As soon as the musicians began to arrive & tune/practice I became acutely aware of the horrible acoustic of the room. Loud does not even come close to describing it. My ears hurt and I left the room swiftly.

However, this was not repertoire VS room. The repertoire was widely varied but in this room EVERYTHING with mid-range content was painfully loud at crescendo.

My poor ears felt like I had spent half an hour at a rock concert.....

Andy
Old 29th September 2007
  #52
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NetworkAudio's Avatar
The only thing worse than playing in a hall that is too big is playing in one that is too small.
Typically makes for a week where the brass/perc and the strings sit at separate tables come breaktime.
Old 29th September 2007
  #53
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Jim vanBergen's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by klaukholm View Post
The only thing worse than playing in a hall that is too big is playing in one that is too small.
Typically makes for a week where the brass/perc and the strings sit at separate tables come breaktime.
YES!!!
I would not have believed this...but I have experienced the same thing somewhat recently!
it is a brilliant observation; one I wish I knew it ten years ago though.
Old 30th September 2007
  #54
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Remoteness's Avatar
Yes, I feel you folks on this one.

Small rooms can be very nasty sound wise that is.
Old 22nd February 2008
  #55
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No money for proper monitors so I'm on Ultrasone HFI-700's.
Old 22nd February 2008
  #56
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Home: HR 824
Study: Ultimate Tower
Studio, nearfield: Genelec S30D
Studio mid field: Aerial Acoustics 10T--Bryston amps
Mixes checked on old (!) Apple Design I tan powered computer speakers and iPod buds
Phones: Beyer DT770
Old 22nd February 2008
  #57
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Home: B&W 303s / driven by Outlaw Audio RR2150

http://www.avrev.com/equip/b&wdm303/
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Don't laugh.
Old 22nd February 2008
  #58
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Work: ADAM S-3A, NHT A-20, and Genelec 1030.
Home: 3 year old and 7 year old daughter bickering!!
Old 22nd February 2008
  #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Remoteness View Post
Yes, I feel you folks on this one.

Small rooms can be very nasty sound wise that is.
I suppose I should have mentioned that the hall in question was designed as public performance space, so was subject to great change when the audience arrived.

However, in this case, little difference was made to the sound as it came off stage.

There are many cases where the audience is the best acoustic treatment for the venue, which in some cases it was designed to include.

On a separate note, I spent a day recording in a nice acoustic last week.

The session was booked for a cultural arts building which had several performance spaces available for the session.
On arrival I was shown around the various rooms and given the choice of which room to record in.
One room (a hall) stood out as being interesting with a relatively short but rich reverb.

After we rolled away some 10x20 meters of plastic floor overlay (with a flower pattern) we found a beautifully pollished thick wood floor - which improved the clarity & sparkle of the room. Also, the ceiling was a massively thick concrete lattice, ornate with 2' deep patterns, also wood panelled.

It turned out that the space was designed for performance by German architects (presumably while Germany had occupation of the area), whose standards were something to be admired.

The instrumentation included sitar, tabla, guitar, harmonium and vocal, so the acoustic was most welcome.

Anyway, a few days after the session it transpired that the helpful porter who had shown me around the various rooms at the beginning of the day had neglected to mention that this particular hall had been recently surveyed after a minor ceiling collapse and had been declared 'dangerous - off-limits'.

Luckily, neither myself or the performers in question knew of this and were very happy with the results. However, the manager of the place was not at all amused and won't allow us back to finish the recording!

I'll post some clips when I get a chance.

Andy
Old 26th February 2008
  #60
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What I listen with...

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_simpson View Post
In my mind I have a vivid memory of a Moscow State Symphony performance. The memory is of their incredible tone & dynamic range. Every player was giving his all, which resulted in amazing dynamics. The cymbals crashed, the tympani roared and the brass blared.

I'm not sure that plenty (or even any) of the systems posted here can reproduce that? Cleanly? According to specs, I don't think any of them can do it.
This entire thread has confused me a bit.
I like "you are there" style in general, want to hear everything, but I never listen at high SPLs.

Then it hit me: Many musicians, classical anyway, can reconstruct an extraordinarily complex source and image from not much more than a mono speaker from what in the past was called a "transistor radio."

I like to "come to the monitors" as opposed to the "monitors coming to me."

So it should come as no surprise that I use the old 15 ohm Rogers LS3/5A. I also use old B&W 801s, but they are parked elsewhere. Despite the limited LF extension on the Rogers, I have no problem with knowing exactly what's going on in the lower end-I have to, as (one of) my instrument(s) is organ. I also use Sennheiser HD280s, having used AKGs and Sonys in the past.

I have been extremely impressed by what people hear in "shoot outs" in these forums. Lots of people here with very good ears.

The answer to the OP.
On computer, usually Sennheiser HD280s, or, computer to amp to LS3/5A.
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