The No.1 Website for Pro Audio
 Search This Thread  Search This Forum  Search Reviews  Search Gear Database  Search Gear for sale  Search Gearslutz Go Advanced
Tags: , , ,

Violin (viola) miking: Schoeps vs AEA R88 - samples Recorders, Players & Tape Machines
Old 2nd September 2007
  #1
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Talking Violin (viola) miking: Schoeps vs AEA R88 - samples

After finishing the monochord CD, I am slowly entering my new big project - "Mystical Violin II." CD.

I just quickly tried to directly compare capturing viola damore with a pair of Schoeps MK2 vs. AEA R88. Schoeps were placed in AB position about 40 cm apart, R88 between them and recorded at the same time.

The sound is indeed different. My intention is to bring the most emotionally appealing sound and I am actually not sure which I like better. Schoeps sound maybe a bit more "spacy" but perhaps slightly "flatter" or thinner than R88, that tend to sound slightly "fuller" and "warmer" but maybe less "astral" ?
I seem to prefer very very slightly R88, but I am not completely sure.

One thing is however sure: combining both (Schoeps+AEA - in various positions, combinations, distance) in any way, yields not very good results, always sounds a bit "processed" and unnatural to me.

How does Schoeps vs R88 viola sound to you ? Which appeals to you more emotionally, touches you deeper ? (I know, it is just one minute of quick playing, but still ...)

Schoeps MK2

AEA R88

Preamp: Forssell stereo JFET, AD: Lavry Blue

I will definitely experiment more, also with normal violin etc. "Mystical violin" should definitely have a mystical sound too :-)
Old 2nd September 2007
  #2
Lives for gear
 
Tom Hakala's Avatar
 

both sound good, but different.

i prefer the sound that vr88 captures. it sure has less space around it, but it somehow seems to make the actual sound of the violin fuller, softer, warmer, even more realistic maybe...
Old 2nd September 2007
  #3
Lives for gear
 
themaidsroom's Avatar
 

i like the r-88
the player sounds great
strings are so wonderful
more emotional than anything





be well


- jack
Old 2nd September 2007
  #4
Lives for gear
 
Plush's Avatar
Both good, both comparable.

I think which one is chosen depends on ones preference for close vs. more ambient vln. pick up.

Ribbon is a natural for vln.

I like the sound snippet.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #5
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Thanks for your comments. I forgot to say that I added about 2dB of HF lift above 2kHz to the R88 sample (using Tritone AngelTone).

To get more "astralness", I may try to stand a bit further from R88 ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Plush View Post

I think which one is chosen depends on ones preference for close vs. more ambient vln. pick up.
Well, I would love if it has both the spaciness of AB Schoeps and the warmness of R88

How to reach it, I don´t know ...
Old 2nd September 2007
  #6
Lives for gear
 

Why not experiment using both pairs, R88 as main, MK2 as outriggers.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #7
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Why not experiment using both pairs, R88 as main, MK2 as outriggers.
I tried a bit (my room is not THAT big) and when trying to blend I always heard some "processing", which disappeared when just one pair remained. There should be probably some minimum recommended distance between the main and outriggers ? I will definitely try again ... Maybe to put MK2 as far as possible.

I also tried single Schoeps/ R88 , single ribbon /Schoeps pair but it did not seem to work that great ...

(anyway, R88 surprises me ...)
Old 2nd September 2007
  #8
Lives for gear
 

Ivo, try the MK2 outrigger pair a little closer to the violin than the R88, to get the same perspective. It might not work in your small studio, but make sure you try many different spacings and distance on the MK2 pair.

What sort of "processing" do you hear? Can you describe this in more detail.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #9
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Ivo, try the MK2 outrigger pair a little closer to the violin than the R88, to get the same perspective. It might not work in your small studio, but make sure you try many different spacings and distance on the MK2 pair.

What sort of "processing" do you hear? Can you describe this in more detail.
MK2 little closer to violin than R88 ? I thought "outrigger" rather means room mic ? So you mean to put MK2 closer and R88 behind them ? I will try.

By "processing" I mean a kind of "blurred" unnatural sound of the instrument. I may post some samples later
Old 2nd September 2007
  #10
Lives for gear
 

BTW, I much prefer the R88 from your two samples.

Yes, the word outrigger is just a word. Try the MK2 closer in absolute distance from the instruments when compared with the R88, and probably twice as wide as what you have been using for them alone as a main pair.

The distance for the R88 feels about right, although, with the MK2 "outriggers" you may be able to use less of the electronic reverb, which to my ear sounds a little unnatural.
Old 2nd September 2007
  #11
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Thanks, David ... I just quickly tried. First I put the Schoeps far to the back as "room mics" and blended with the main R88. Then I did as you suggested: I put quite wide Schoeps pair closer to the viola than the "main" R88 and blended the Schoeps sound in very moderate quantity with the R88. And indeed - the warm sound of R88 remained and a touch of "hifi" spaciness was added, not disturbing much themain pure sound ... I prefered it to the first option (distant Schoeps room pair). I will post some samples tomorrow, now I have to go to sleep ....
Old 3rd September 2007
  #12
Well, I'm probably in the minority here, but I prefered the Schoeps. The ribbon mic is really luscious -- I'd venture to say "chocolatey" -- but I just think it is too dark and a triffle too colored to use on what is going to be the album's featured instrument.

I also like the greater sense of "room" you got with the Schoeps. My main reservation is that the top end sounds just a triffle "electronic".

These are quibbles. They are both lovely recordings, and the artist is a fine player.


-- David
Old 3rd September 2007
  #13
Lives for gear
 
NetworkAudio's Avatar
Ivo, just don't make it sound too good. People may get confused and think it's not viola...
Old 3rd September 2007
  #14
sounds truly wondrous. both.
Old 3rd September 2007
  #15
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by klaukholm View Post
Ivo, just don't make it sound too good. People may get confused and think it's not viola...
Actually it is not a standard viola, but a specially made kind of "viola damore". With 5 playing strings and 7 sympathetic strings.


Another viola damore is just being made for me, with 6 playing strings and 12 sympathetic strings.

I think R88 main with Schoeps outriggers may sound the best. Will try today ...
Old 3rd September 2007
  #16
Gear Head
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick View Post
Well, I'm probably in the minority here, but I prefered the Schoeps. The ribbon mic is really luscious -- I'd venture to say "chocolatey" -- but I just think it is too dark and a triffle too colored to use on what is going to be the album's featured instrument.

I also like the greater sense of "room" you got with the Schoeps. My main reservation is that the top end sounds just a triffle "electronic".

These are quibbles. They are both lovely recordings, and the artist is a fine player.


-- David
I agree with David in regards to the ribbon's "coloring"...and the "electronic" top-end of the Schoeps. However, the Schoeps is just a more accurate representation of the performance. That "electronic" top-end is what you would hear when the player skims/floats the bow over the strings. More on that later.

The basic color of the AEA flatters the player...it makes the player sound better. And while it does sound "fake" compared to the Schoeps...it does give the music that "mood"...which is probably what you would want (even though the AEA does lack that spaciousness).

However there is a BIG problem with the AEA track for me...and it's NOT the lack of spaciousness.
The AEA thickens up the sound...which is good for the player.
However, the player often skims/floats the bow over the strings, causing an unnatural "thin" sound.
The "thick" sound of the AEA clashes with the "thin" sound of the floating bow....which accentuates the "thiness" to the point where I find it very irritating and unlistenable.
This isn't a problem so much with the AEA, but with the violist's playing.
Maybe that 2k boost didn't help things at all.

You lose some of the "mood" with the Schoeps...but because it is a more accurate representation...I don't find the skimmed/flautando/ponticello bow as irritating...and so I'd have to pick the Schoeps in the end.

Now from a music critic's standpoint...I'd like the player redo the entire track. I CANNOT STAND the usage of the flautando/ponticello.
A string player can achieve the exact same mood WITHOUT resorting to the unnatural "whistling" sounds which happen with excessive bow skimming.

And even if one wanted those "whistling" sounds...this player is doing them sometimes at the wrong points of the phrases...and just overall abusing them.

Sighs. I hope I don't sound overly harsh...I'm extremely critical when it comes to strings...because I make my living as a vioinist.

for me the bottom line is:

accurate sound - schoeps
colored "mood" sound - aea

my pick would be the aea except for the violist's performance (and/or 2k boost) makes the aea unusable fo rme.

and so from these 2 clips it is the schoeps.
Old 3rd September 2007
  #17
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by con_ritmo View Post
Now from a music critic's standpoint...I'd like the player redo the entire track. I CANNOT STAND the usage of the flautando/ponticello.
A string player can achieve the exact same mood WITHOUT resorting to the unnatural "whistling" sounds which happen with excessive bow skimming.

And even if one wanted those "whistling" sounds...this player is doing them sometimes at the wrong points of the phrases...and just overall abusing them.
You see, there are thousands different ways how to play violin/viola. If I play Bach or any other classical music, I would definitely play it in the customary classical way (yet even there you would find quite different approaches - from the "authentic" to modern). If I play Indian classical music, it will be again completely different. Anyway, I LOVE flautando/ponticello in the "free" styles (hope you don´t mind). And also - these are just few quick improvised tones for the sound check - every time the improvisation will be different, there are no given phrases, no written music. And also - it is neither violin nor classical viola but a special sounding customary instrument.

But the topic here is capturing the given sound with various types of microphones. So let us maybe better stick just to it ...
Old 3rd September 2007
  #18
Lives for gear
 
Schaap's Avatar
The AEA gives a more natural, detailed sound than the Schoeps. However if I listen longer the HF does irritates me a bit. The Schoeps has that 'Schoeps' sound heh., which I like.
I would suggest to record with the AEA with more distant and take advantage of your good room and no or a tiny bit HF lift. Add the Schoeps "to taste".

Henk
Old 3rd September 2007
  #19
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schaap View Post
The AEA gives a more natural, detailed sound than the Schoeps. However if I listen longer the HF does irritates me a bit. The Schoeps has that 'Schoeps' sound heh., which I like.
I would suggest to record with the AEA with more distant and take advantage of your good room and no or a tiny bit HF lift. Add the Schoeps "to taste".

Henk
Yes, I just mechanically followed the myth that some HF should be always added to ribbon takes. It may not. Better maybe to keep it without that lift ... Anyway, the Schoeps outriggers to AEA main sound like a good idea
Old 3rd September 2007
  #20
Gear Maniac
 
pianoman's Avatar
Nice samples, as always, Ivo.

FWIW, I've been doing some work with my newly acquired SF-1s. I've found that for certain instruments, adding the HF shelf can be effective (especially drum OHs to capture the cymbals without being harsh, and often piano). On the SF-1s, I'm finding that an HF shelf at, say, 7k, is about right; 2k is too much boost. I have no knowledge of how that would translate to the R88.

However, based on my experimentaion to date, I'm skeptical at the moment of the virtue of HF shelf on instruments for which the HF content would make the instrument harsher (trumpet for sure, flute, and from one and only one recording session, violin).

I've been trying to post a sample, but I'm getting "fatal error" from the GS server.

Last edited by pianoman; 3rd September 2007 at 02:28 PM.. Reason: typo
Old 3rd September 2007
  #21
Lives for gear
 

The schoeps all the way.

Any "warmth" advantage on the 88 is negated by the increased noise that results from the 2db high end lift.
The self noise on the 88 track was distracting.
Old 3rd September 2007
  #22
Lives for gear
 
ISedlacek's Avatar
I tried a bit more today and found that out of many combinations the main Schoeps pair with a distant "room" R88 mixed in a small quantity to the main sound seems to appeal to me the most so far ... (like 4/5:1). That bit of the distant R88 seems to add an invisible touch of warmness to the Schoeps sound as if
Old 9th September 2007
  #23
Gear Head
 
rubycakes's Avatar
 

conflicted

I listened to both examples a few times and while I like the overall sound of the R88 best (to my ears the sound is richer and feels more satisfying than the Schoeps) I tend to like the Schoeps better near the end of the track in the lower range.
Old 10th September 2007
  #24
Lives for gear
 

HI IVO , have you tried the r88 in ms... and another thing, if you
blend the different mics together, and then line up the waveforms
in a sequencer, you can vary the clarity or blurriness of the sound
by how closely synchronised they are.
Old 10th September 2007
  #25
Lives for gear
 

gorgeous....schoeps.........what is the music ivo?
Old 10th September 2007
  #26
Lives for gear
 
MichaelPatrick's Avatar
 

Excellent samples. Thanks! I also favor the R88 a little.

I use an R88 frequently and add in a bit of outrigger omnis placed close enough to bring "astralness" into the mix. The omnis have to be fast and neutral to complement the R88. A pair of Josephson C617set mics is my favorite for applications like this.
Old 12th September 2007
  #27
Super Moderator
 
Remoteness's Avatar
I copied and move this new discussion to this thread...

https://www.gearslutz.com/board/remot...rangement.html

Thanks for the advice!
Post Reply

Welcome to the Gearslutz Pro Audio Community!

Registration benefits include:
  • The ability to reply to and create new discussions
  • Access to members-only giveaways & competitions
  • Interact with VIP industry experts in our guest Q&As
  • Access to members-only sub forum discussions
  • Access to members-only Chat Room
  • Get INSTANT ACCESS to the world's best private pro audio Classifieds for only USD $20/year
  • Promote your eBay auctions and Reverb.com listings for free
  • Remove this message!
You need an account to post a reply. Create a username and password below and an account will be created and your post entered.


 
 
Slide to join now Processing…
Thread Tools
Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Similar Threads
Thread
Thread Starter / Forum
Replies
Bobby Lynn / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music and Location Recording
3
sheltersoton / Gearslutz Secondhand Gear Classifieds
1
riiiiicola / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music and Location Recording
8
licendrivr / Remote Possibilities in Acoustic Music and Location Recording
12
jbchef / So much gear, so little time
0

Forum Jump
Forum Jump