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New Sennheiser MKH8000 Series Mics Condenser Microphones
Old 11th August 2008
  #241
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Yes I know all that. I'll rephrase my question. Precisely what were you listening on, to make your conclusion that "it sounded wonderful".

1. The Neve monitor mix, which demands a D/A for each channel back to analog before the mixer.
2. A stereo mix from a digital mixer, if so, what was the digital mixer employed in this case.
heh

That throw-away comment was not a critique or anything specific - just that it all sounded very good.

And was as much a comment on the playing of the orchestra as it was of the recording.

Don't read too much into it.

If you want more - it will have to wait until I hear the mixdown of the real thing.
Old 11th August 2008
  #242
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John,

have you got your 8020 yet?

Just curious, I read that you did your last piano recording with KM183-D and I wonder which of these you prefer.

I have a pair of 8020 coming to me in a couple of days and obviously I'm very excited to see how I like them.


/Peter
Old 11th August 2008
  #243
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Rob King's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Here are few samples to listen:

(few tones on monochord)

Sennheiser MKH8040

Schoeps MK21

Schoeps MK2


Just for a general approximate idea, nothing "scientific" (not able to play exactly the same thing again)

More instruments may follow, should there be an interest
Preamp: Thermionic Culture Earlybird 2.2
AD: DAD AX-24

I know that MK4 would be ideal to compare with, but I don´t have it here

The MK21's Killed it!! I have been wondering if I should get some 8040's 20's or save for the Schoeps. Just listening to this Makes me want to save for the Schoeps. They are clearly superior to the 8040's on this test. The detail is wonderful on the Schoeps.
Old 12th August 2008
  #244
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Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
John,

have you got your 8020 yet?

Just curious, I read that you did your last piano recording with KM183-D and I wonder which of these you prefer.
No, not got the 8020s yet - but definitely will as soon as I get a paying job for them.

I *do* have the 8040s, though.

The NAGRA VI should arrive in about two weeks (on the next delivery) and I still have to pay for that.

Then I still have to add the MZD 8000 module, remote cables and Y-cable to the kit as well as the Neumann AES attachment kit so I can record digital stereo with the MZD 8000 direct into the Nagra.
Old 12th August 2008
  #245
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Exclamation

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob King View Post
The MK21's Killed it!! I have been wondering if I should get some 8040's 20's or save for the Schoeps. Just listening to this Makes me want to save for the Schoeps. They are clearly superior to the 8040's on this test. The detail is wonderful on the Schoeps.
That's not really a fair test as you are not comparing like with like.

Get hold of them yourself and compare properly.

The symmetrical capsule of the MKH means that the IM distortion is way lower than other mics and you can only relly tell when you compare the real played instrument in the acoustic with what you record.

Yes, it all comes down to personal taste in the end - but a mic. comparison should be like for like in the same acoustic place (or at least as close as possible).

I would never judge a mic. by other peoples recordings.
Old 12th August 2008
  #246
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob King View Post
The MK21's Killed it!! I have been wondering if I should get some 8040's 20's or save for the Schoeps. Just listening to this Makes me want to save for the Schoeps. They are clearly superior to the 8040's on this test. The detail is wonderful on the Schoeps.
What John said.

One must realise that these mics have different on axis and off axis response.

To my ears listening with HD600 the MKH sounded very precise and correct, clean.

The MK sounded warmer, rounder and slighlty bigger. That's possibly what one could expect with an omni since it is flatter in the deep bass and also catch some more of the room which gives a richer bigger feeling.

Indeed as someone mentioned earlier, i would have been interesting to throw MKH8020 in there also.

I have a pair of MKH8020 on order and possibly will go with a pair of MKH8040 as well. What I have heard from them is good enough for me to wanna investigate them closer.

But sure, the Schoeps are interesting as well..


/Peter
Old 13th August 2008
  #247
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
That's not really a fair test as you are not comparing like with like.

Get hold of them yourself and compare properly.

The symmetrical capsule of the MKH means that the IM distortion is way lower than other mics and you can only relly tell when you compare the real played instrument in the acoustic with what you record.
Hi John,

Are Sennheiser also doing such comparisons as part of their development process?!

(I think I'm correct that you work for Sennheiser?)

If so, what kind of comparisons are made and could you go into any details?

Andy
Old 13th August 2008
  #248
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
That's not really a fair test as you are not comparing like with like. Get hold of them yourself and compare properly.

... I would never judge a mic. by other peoples recordings.
I think its a fair test, why not? Ivo's files are some of the best ever posted here and can be relied on for mic discrimination.

Quote:
(I think I'm correct that you work for Sennheiser?)
Yes, John, can you advise to the this board what your actual employment relationship is with Sennheiser at present, so we can take all the MKH advice with the right amount of salt.
Old 13th August 2008
  #249
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Don S's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
I think its a fair test, why not? Ivo's files are some of the best ever posted here and can be relied on for mic discrimination.
Yes, Ivo's files are a very good place to start and I am thankful for him placing them. However, most of them are mono and in a controlled (but beautiful) studio. The title of this forum is remote - acoustic music - location. The 8040's didn't impress me until I heard them in an ORTF pattern in a concert hall. The imaging is amazing and would be an overlooked advantage unless you had a pair to use on your own gigs. I usually have to live with a mic for a couple months to truly understand the strengths and weaknesses that come with any high end mic.
Even with salt, I liked the statement "I would never judge a mic with someone else's recording".

To be completely fair, these mics present a challenge to use simply because of their small and irregular size. I had to reinvest in shocks, mounts, screens, etc. If I ever do let them go that would be the only reason.
Old 13th August 2008
  #250
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Don S View Post
Yes, Ivo's files are a very good place to start and I am thankful for him placing them. However, most of them are mono
Mono ? I never record anything in mono, everything strictly in stereo - I hate mono heh
Old 13th August 2008
  #251
Lives for gear
 

"The MKH symmetrical capsule series, including the 8000 are clean and lack distortion. As such they show up any deficiencies in the instrument, playing and acoustic as they don't hide it in the IM-distortion low level mush; you can certainly hear subtleties that you miss with other mics.."

I don't entirely agree with this statement, in that the MKH 800 overstates detail in the higher frequencies, at the expense of portraying the midrange accurately. This to me is a distortion, although it can blend well with other mics and add a "airy" quality to a recording.
Old 14th August 2008
  #252
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Hi Ivo!

I loved all three clips and got very interested in the instrument you play.

Would you mind telling me some more about the instrument? Any pictures of it?

I'm very much into early and folk music.


/Peter
Quote myself here! :-)


/Peter
Old 14th August 2008
  #253
Gear Maniac
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Mono ? I never record anything in mono, everything strictly in stereo - I hate mono heh
I found it interesting to compare in mono the three recordings Ivo did for this thread... the already small differences between the three recordings are far less noticeable.
Old 14th August 2008
  #254
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post

Of these three clips, here's my impressions.

monsen.wav - Stronger low end. But kind of thin harmonically.

monmk2.wav - I like the sound on this one a lot. Really thick harmonically.

monmk21.wav - This one is a little bright for me. Almost as thick as the MK2, but kind of top heavy harmonically.

For these clips, I like the MK2 best, the MK21 second, and the MKH8040 last. But this could just be mic position and polar pattern. As played on a Korg MR-1000 to a Presonus HP4 to a pair of M-Audio BX8s.

For my needs, I can't get up close like you need to for an OMNI mic. So the 8040 would still probably meet my needs better.
Old 14th August 2008
  #255
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by bove View Post
I found it interesting to compare in mono the three recordings Ivo did for this thread... the already small differences between the three recordings are far less noticeable.
In mono, very few things are noticeable ... It simply sounds ugly and congested (in principal)
Old 14th August 2008
  #256
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_simpson View Post
Hi John,

Are Sennheiser also doing such comparisons as part of their development process?!
Yes


Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_simpson View Post
(I think I'm correct that you work for Sennheiser?)
Yes - and a lot of other things as well - it's all in my profile.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_simpson View Post
If so, what kind of comparisons are made and could you go into any details?
I don't have access to these as they are all done in Germany.

I did my own tests in a major opera house with the original MKH 20, Schoeps and Earthworks a few years ago and from my own listening tests I have bought the MKH 8040 already and will get the 8020 when I get the next paying piano job.

I bought my first MKH in 1986 when I heard how neutral and revealing they were and a human voice actually sounded like a human being and not a recording of a human being. Very subtle, but I was so impressed then I bought a set of 6 mics (pair each of omni, cardioid and fig-8).
Old 14th August 2008
  #257
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
I think its a fair test, why not? Ivo's files are some of the best ever posted here and can be relied on for mic discrimination.
I said it's not a fair test as he was not comparing like with like. The 8040 is a cardioid ant the others were omni (or wide-cardioid).

A comparison test should be the same pattern in as close to the same place as possible and posted as 16/44.1 uncompressed files as the minimum quality.

I have no argument with Ivo, just that any comparison should be an equivalent, not a mic. with a different polar pattern.



Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Yes, John, can you advise to the this board what your actual employment relationship is with Sennheiser at present, so we can take all the MKH advice with the right amount of salt.
It's all in my profile (and has been from the day I signed up to the forum). I do lots of other things as well as working for Sennheiser UK. Anyone who knows me knows I am passionate about high quality sound and my love of symmetrical capsule MKH mics has nothing to do with my employment but from many years of hands-on recording experience.

In fact, *because* I work for Sennheiser I tend to tone down any comments and just quote facts - I don't go shouting how wonderful things are (even if I think so) as it is likely to be misinterpreted - so I tend to keep it to technical facts and personal experience.

I hope this answers your question OK.
Old 14th August 2008
  #258
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
I don't have access to these as they are all done in Germany.
I think I may have misread your initial post - I thought you were saying that Sennheiser were comparing the recording to the source directly?

Or are we talking about comparing microphones directly to eachother?

Quote:
I did my own tests in a major opera house with the original MKH 20, Schoeps and Earthworks a few years ago and from my own listening tests I have bought the MKH 8040 already and will get the 8020 when I get the next paying piano job.
If you compared directly to the source (opera), what kind of monitoring did you use - I'd be really interested in any details. Thanks.

Andy
Old 14th August 2008
  #259
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_simpson View Post
I think I may have misread your initial post - I thought you were saying that Sennheiser were comparing the recording to the source directly?

Or are we talking about comparing microphones directly to each other?
Both - the design work was done with real musical instruments when the MKH 8000 series was designed and not only in the nechoic chamber.

Obviously they also listen to how other mics sound as well.

But as all this is done in Germany I don't have details.

I have some wav files that I recorded with someone comparing MKH 8000 with Schoeps and DPA at the same venue - but I have not had a chance to listen to these yet.


Quote:
Originally Posted by andy_simpson View Post
If you compared directly to the source (opera), what kind of monitoring did you use - I'd be really interested in any details.
I could not hear the Opera as we were under the stage somewhere - so it was just comparing the mics. Obviously as all the mics concerned were superb mics the differences were subtle rather than large. Once they had been set to the same level they all sounded about the same on a quick switch. On listening, the Earthworks were obviously noisier (very small capsule) and I felt the Schoeps a tad "hard". The Schoeps and Earthworks were pretty new, but the MKH 20 were my own first production run and about 15 years old at the time (this was a few years ago).

I forget what the loudspeakers were, I'm afraid.

It was an interesting test.
Old 14th August 2008
  #260
Gear Nut
 
Stefanizzi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Rick View Post
Indeed. I could echo what you stated when comparing a Schoeps MK4 to MK21 (I don't have any Schoeps omni capsules here). So I think your impressions are probably more due to the pattern than the brand.

David L. Rick
Seventh String Recording
Quote:
Originally Posted by John Willett View Post
I said it's not a fair test as he was not comparing like with like. The 8040 is a cardioid ant the others were omni (or wide-cardioid).

A comparison test should be the same pattern in as close to the same place as possible and posted as 16/44.1 uncompressed files as the minimum quality.

I have no argument with Ivo, just that any comparison should be an equivalent, not a mic. with a different polar pattern.
Thank you David, thank you John, your patience and perseverance are admirable. You can really help some people here who have a sort of mist before their eyes. I hope they will take advantage from your contributes.

Best regards

Last edited by Stefanizzi; 14th August 2008 at 06:43 PM.. Reason: trasmission problems
Old 14th August 2008
  #261
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefanizzi View Post
You can really help some people here who have a sort of mist before their eyes. I hope they will take advantage from your contributes.
Some of us have taken the pattern differences into account in weighing up the results. A big part of choosing the best mic for the job is also choosing the correct pattern.

If we take your point to its logical conclusion, we should only ever compare same patterns in identical positions (impossible) in an anechoic chamber.

More importantly, on axis response of those three patterns is largely the same and Ivo is close miking in a dry room. Its a valid test.
Old 14th August 2008
  #262
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefanizzi View Post
Thank you David, thank you John, your patience and perseverance are admirable. You can really help some people here who have a sort of mist before their eyes. I hope they will take advantage from your contributes.

Best regards
Thank you, Sir, for your venerable words and for opening our eyes hopelessly blinded with ignorance ... Let us all rejoice now, truly blessed and awakened ...

Never more will I put a wide cardiod close to the real cardiod (even if I do not have another cardioid around), I pray for my dreadful sins to be forgiven ...
Old 14th August 2008
  #263
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Ivo,

I asked a couple of questions to you earlier. If you find time I would really apreciate your input.

Thanks!


/Peter
Old 14th August 2008
  #264
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Audiop View Post
Ivo,

I asked a couple of questions to you earlier. If you find time I would really apreciate your input.

Thanks!


/Peter
Was it about the monochord ? You can find some information HERE

Have I missed more questions of yours ?
Old 14th August 2008
  #265
Gear Nut
 
Stefanizzi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Some of us have taken the pattern differences into account in weighing up the results.
How?
If you could explain how did you manage it, I would be very grateful!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
If we take your point to its logical conclusion, we should only ever compare same patterns [...]
Exactly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
More importantly, on axis response of those three patterns is largely the same and Ivo is close miking in a dry room. Its a valid test.
Not for me.
Here a contradiction:

Regards
Old 14th August 2008
  #266
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ISedlacek's Avatar
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stefanizzi View Post
How?

Not for me.
What prevents you to make a perfect comparison yourself ?

I think there are few basic points

1) everybody understands that the polar patterns were not the same in that small comparison (it was not concealed)

2) some basic sound character may be obvious and distinguished regardless polar patterns (and it was I think)

3) you can also take it easy - as a straight comparison between recordings on various polar patterns, or simply between three different microphones. Or - how the best record one single instrument by using various mics.

4) I have not hidden my other cardioids pairs on purpose .. I simply did not have any more cardioids in my studio .. |Yet , this comparison was quite interesting for me ... Everybody is free to make his own, more perfect, of course ... We look forward to hearing your guitar recorded on few pairs of cardioids, including MKH 8040
Old 14th August 2008
  #267
Gear Guru
 
John Willett's Avatar
 

Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
Thank you, Sir, for your venerable words and for opening our eyes hopelessly blinded with ignorance ... Let us all rejoice now, truly blessed and awakened ...

Never more will I put a wide cardiod close to the real cardiod (even if I do not have another cardioid around), I pray for my dreadful sins to be forgiven ...
heh

Nothing wrong in putting a wide cardioid and a cardioid together - but not as a comparison between the two.

A fair comparison is to compare different polar patterns by the same manufacturer and different manufacturers by the same polar pattern.
Old 14th August 2008
  #268
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John Willett's Avatar
 

Smile

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISedlacek View Post
What prevents you to make a perfect comparison yourself ?
That is the best thing to do - your own ears are the best judge.
Old 14th August 2008
  #269
Gear Maniac
 

With all the excellent information available here, and nice audio samples from a variety of members, I would hope none of the people posting audio samples is discouraged by the comments. I really appreciate the effort people go through on this forum to provide audio of the different products they're using. It is a valuable resource!

In particular, Ivo's test is wonderful if someone is interested in the relative differences in sound characteristics between the three microphones he used. Ivo appears to set things up the same way each time, and plays some interesting music to listen to.

If someone wants to decide, using some sort of test, which brand of microphone is “best” or which brand SDC cardioid microphone is “best”, they would obviously have to devise a special test to match their personal specifications.
Old 14th August 2008
  #270
Gear Nut
 
Stefanizzi's Avatar
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Some of us have taken the pattern differences into account in weighing up the results.
How?...
A couple of psychologists of perception (old acquaintance) would be very interested to know how you managed it. No joke.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
If we take your point to its logical conclusion, we should only ever compare same patterns [...]
Exactly!

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
More importantly, on axis response of those three patterns is largely the same and Ivo is close miking in a dry room.
Here you contradict yourself (Some of us have taken the pattern differences into account in weighing up the results...)
If you want to support your argument take a decision: the two statements clash.

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Spearritt View Post
Its a valid test.
Not for me.

Regards
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